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Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by balkanAnon, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. balkanAnon Member

    Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    greetings people.

    I know this movement runs under mantra "we are not challenging Scientology beliefs, only abusive practices". This is probably a good thing from strategic point of view, because challenging beliefs of other people is seen as bigoted these days and we don't want them to call us 'hate group'.

    However, there might be some reasons to rethink this strategy a little, because Scientology isn't like most other religions. Bear with me for a moment.

    Most religions I know of don't claim to give their practitioners direct supernatural powers. You pray to god and he/she might or might not help you... it's up to the him/her. Most religions don't condone sitting home and praying instead of going to hospital (some do though) because even if miracles do happen they are rare singular events, not something that can be relied on.

    Scientology, on the other hand, does claim to give followers supernatural gifts that work on command. They claim perfect memory, increase of intelligence, fast healing, and ability to leave your body at will. Unlike afterlife, most of these claims are easy to demonstrate: Just say ten random numbers and ask Scientologist to repeat them; Hold several fingers behind your back and ask a Scientologist to leave his body, get behind your back and count them.

    Stuff like that might plant seeds of doubt in those who gave a lot of their money to the Cult and are too afraid to admit to themselves that they are duped. All this stories of abuse and evil policies are easy to ignore if you are willfully blind, but "you have perfect memory. Prove it!" is very straightforward and hard to gloss over.

    I know that an exScientologist said somewhere that he began doubting his Cult when he saw protesters "OTs are supposed to be the most powerful people on earth. Why can't they chase away a few protesters?", which proves that stuff like that can be effective for some people. Imagine if we started casting doubt on their ideas INTENTIONALLY.

    I am not saying that this is a "silver bullet" that's going to destroy Scientology, but maybe we need to try this approach too.
  2. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?


    It's simple. Now all you got to do is find a Scientologist, an OT if you can. Then you got to convince them to go along with the test.

    Even if they refuse to play; it could be a learning experience for at least one of you.

    I actually hope you do it.
  3. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    I'm challenging Scientology batshit crazy beliefs, and their abusive practices, there is no point in pretending they are not mutually inclusive
  4. balkanAnon Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    I see what you are trying to say, but some of this things can be done without asking Scientologist to play along. During protests, when someone gets out of a building to shout at you, just put your hands behind your back and ask him "how many fingers I got". Not guaranteed to work, not at all, but it might push someone who is halfway there.


    Also, there are no orgs near me.
  5. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    like this
  6. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Whatever you do I hope it gets a great reaction. Great luck to you.
  7. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    The main point that needs to be hammered home is Scientology has never produced a single Clear or OT as defined by Hubbard, not a single one. Most Scientologists realize they have none of the characteristics of these states, but they think everyone else who attested to these states does. They believe they only lack these characteristics because of something they have done or not done correctly and will soon get it right. They need to fully understand that nobody have ever achieved these states because they do not exist and never have, they are a fairy tail
  8. adhocrat Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?


    The standard scilon line is that it is beneath them to use their OT powerz on something trivial, like proof they work. No, they use them to make the light stay green, or make that 40 minute drive in like, 20 minutes. Pure intention.
  9. moarxenu Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    You are right about challenging Scientology beliefs. Many of them are incompatible with the liberal democratic order with it seeks to replace as does extremist Islam.

    It does not matter if you are not near an org, there is plenty of online activism to be done. We have other Balkan anons here. I don't know what Balkan languages you know but ElenaP from Macedonia has an excellent blog.

    Elena's Scientology Blog
  10. Major Boyle Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    I wonder if James Randi (who just recently outed himself) would like to reinstate the million dollar supernatural prize for Scientology. That would be lulzy.
  11. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    What part of "OT 8 is the FIRST OT level" don't you get?

    An OT 8 knows who he is not, and wants to find out who he is.

    Already he has - through standard application of Scientology tech - risen to the state of Homo Novis (New Man - no longer being subject to the cruel impulses of being humanoid), and then Clear, which means he no longer has his own Reactive Mind, and has completed his pre-OT levels, overcoming the insidious Implants from trillenia past, and the effect of the event that made this planet a desert 75 million years ago (and destroyed the sanity of every man, woman, and child on this planet and in this sector of the Galaxy, as described by Ron in 'RJ '67') - AND NOW you want him to do parlor tricks for you?

    Even an OT 8 is only on his FIRST OT level - there are many more to come.

    Report to your local org. Your terminal is ethics.
  12. adhocrat Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Yes, please.
  13. CarterUSP Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    This all makes sense.
    The problem is that scilons are seldom willing to have a sensible logical comm cycle. It's a great idea for those who will actually talk to a protester, but most won't.
    Perhaps a simple slogan or question like "Why do OTs still wear glasses?" yelled in their general direction could help make them think.
  14. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    ROFL... Telling someone to report to ethics is old school Scn (funny shit)

    I have a piece of Tech you can use on them. Use the same intorogation trick the cult uses to find who has been talking shit.

    1. a. Have you been told you were in Bad?
    b. What was said?
    c. Who said it?
    2. a. Have you been told someone was bad?
    b. What was said?
    c. Who said it?
    3. a. Have you been told soneone was doing wrong?
    b. What was said?
    c. Who said it?
    4. a. Have you been told a group was bad?
    b. What was said?
    c. Who said it?

    Third Party How to Find One (Pg 289 Ethics Book)

    [IMG]
  15. balkanAnon Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    That's what I am talking about: simple slogans, like the one you mentioned. Maybe the point I am trying to make here is that it's easier to prove to them that their tech doesn't really work than that their organisation is criminal. True many of them are so immersed in brainwashing that there is nothing we can do about it, but the question is how to save those who can be saved.

    Maybe stand outside with a sign: I have a poem on this paper. Is there anyone in this building who can read it once and repeat it from memory without mistake? You can also shout it via megaphone.

    Or stand outside with a package and a sign If anyone guesses what's in the box, we'll join the sea org
  16. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    You’re not just trying to wake up current members you’re also educating the public who don’t know what Co$ is. This gives the raw meat knowledge so they don’t get scammed.

    This creates an Epic Fail Wave into the community!
    :D
  17. balkanAnon Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Of course. You think I disagree? The point is that maybe we should be doing something about the folks currently in too, and this seems to me as good approach, but this could be debated.
  18. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Yeah, you are right. However public won't walk up to you straight out of Co$ because they will get in trouble. Only OSA will approach. But I agree that simple slogans will get members to question what is going on.
    Like:

    I need some “C” in my ARC

    Let’s get some KRC with a little ARC

    We do not get paid (this is important because that is what OSA is telling members)

    There’s no ARC in IGNORE (Co$ policy on Anon is ignore)

    Where’s the ARC?
  19. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Ideas like this get brought up repeatedly. Naturally, as soon as someone claims to be able to give other people perfect memory (or other testable abilities), people become skeptical and demand proof, and of course Hubbard could never deliver on his claims. This has been a valid angle of attack since the early 1950s.

    Also, my suggestion for signs is: SPs > OTs
  20. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    So it's not enough that the freeing of vast amounts of theta as a result of NOTs resulted in the collapse of communism in eastern Europe and Russia and the prevention of World War III, you want hard working on-Source In-tech On-Policy Scientologists to tell you how many fingers you have behind your woggy head?
  21. Anonbg Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    balkanAnon, in which Balkan country are you? There seem to be some of us lurking around, perhaps we could think of something. :)
  22. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Hubbard's Scientology scriptures includes the offensive rules regarding disconnection.

    That scriptures is wrong. Disconnection is an extreme form of excommunication and the crux of the family dividing problem Scientology dumps on the world.

    Case in point of how this SHOULD be discussed, but Hubbard's additional rules take the discussion of this disconnection policy OFF THE TABLE.

    But disconnection SHOULD be debatable by members. Scientology's permanent rules are Hubbard's fault. Members are led to accept the rules, period.

    The disconnection rules SHOULD be debatable.

    The independents Scientologists are living examples of NOT being slavish to follow the harshest form of disconnection.

    One CAN still be a Scientologists, witness the ex Scientologists in the "independent" groupings, who are free to debate.

    Official Scientologists are stuck with a mindset that has to mature to the point of allowing debate by official Scientologists of their church scriptures and on important issues like disconnection policy, which is the MOST destructive policy Scientology dishes out on its members, as presently applied by them.

    Another key Hubbard policy is NOT allowing discussion of the Xenu history incident, and the "body thetans" spiritual problem of all human beings today.

    This is SO KEY to understanding what the full "Bridge to Total Freedom" consists of, that it is completely missed by almost everyone who just can't get their wits around this.

    The Scientology "upper levels" are the biggest "case" advancement period, per Hubbard.

    Yet Hubbard put discussion of the details of this "case" advancement (spiritual improvement) OFF THE TABLE.

    Hubbard made it a suppressive act to discuss the details of the "confidential" (no longer, and why the outside world actually somewhat knows MORE about Scientology compared to existing members who are NOT allowed to discuss this area of their religion FREELY).

    We live in a world, at the moment, where the outside world has the Class 8 lectures, where Hubbard talks about the Xenu "4th dynammic engram", where Hubbard details the problems that "body thetans" cause humans spiritually, and we also have on Wikileaks the OT 3 Course with loads of Class 8 writings by Hubbard detailing "body thetan" problems spiritually.

    And NO ONE has gotten past the juvenile criticism of this material.

    NO SCHOLAR has tried to write, even to TODAY, seriously, and put this material which is in the public domain, into scholarly papers.

    The 2009 Oxford Univ Press, "Scientology" anthology edited by Jim Lewis, has a "Xenu" mythology chapter that is superficially a start, but we still have NO "Scientology's Upper Levels for Dummies" type of book, that possibly more respectfully simplifies and discusses the spiritual theories of Hubbard.

    It is absolutely important to simplify a religion's spiritual ideas, in layman understandable language.

    Scientology IS a spiritual acitivity, just like any other religion is a spiritual or God activity, or "gods" activity.

    Scientology is a spiritual improvement activity.

    It's "upper levels" are absolutely vital to be understood in simply neutral spritual language that that doesn't require the reader to be indoctrinated and straitjacketed by Scientology's own language.

    Trying to shoehorn the reader/public into Scientology's language, I feel, is a cop out.

    Not unless the writer who does the academic papers/chapters/books on Scientology ALSO writes in detail how Scientology's/Hubbard's spiritual ideas compare to other similar spiritual religious groups.

    Putting Scientology's "upper levels" in simple language is STILL something that is NOT done sufficiently so that the public does feel like they are getting a fair comparison of Hubbard's spiritual ideas to other spiritual/religious groups.

    The "upper levels" HAS to be dumbed down into layman's terminology, and compared, and shared more simply.

    I've tried to do this repeatedly in postings and emails to hundreds of people these last couple years.

    We are living in a phase of Scientology history when the discussion, free discussion, of the major problems of the Scientology movement has YET to have a large impact BACK on official Scientology.

    Within the ex official Scientology groups, like on Rathbun's blog, I can make the above points, freely.

    But official Scientology is NOT mature enough to allow free discussion, and what a scholar would agree is "theologian" type internal but public discussion of that "religion's" key church scriptures.

    There is NO discussion within official Scientology of the major problems of the official Scientology movement, and that discussion is only being manifested OUTSIDE of official Scientology.

    Anyways, this blog, the views of the Why We Protest people is priceless.

    You who were never Scientologists, your views are thus instantly simpler and cut right to the key issues. But repeatedly lambasting Scientology only is effective for keeping people OUT of Scientology.

    Your views do NOT find traction in the Danny Shermans, Norman Starkeys, Guilliaume Leserves, Marc Yagers, or any of the WDC Members nor Exec Strata members (if there are any on post).

    Scientology subjugated leadership (the Starkeys, Jenztschs, et al) don't hear your valid points.

    The problems faced by the existing members at the top (the ones subjugated by Miscavige's domination) will be there even when Miscavige is gone, and we are all dead and gone also.

    The problem is Hubbard's scriptures, and the hard protected rules like it being a suppressive act to discuss "body thetans" spiritual influences on people on earth, in public.

    It is unfortunately Hubbard's rules, AND the current leadership (Miscavige) fads that keep the existing members muzzled in fear of being excommunicated for taking up and even admitting they have MAJOR problems.

    THAT is the big problem.

    How to entice Scientology to mature, and mature at least to the limited degree of maturing that the ex official Scientologists have risen to, which is discuss, publicly the problems of the movement.

    I'm for free discussion, which is what I find most important of all about ALL of the chat sites regarding Scientology.

    It is only the officially constrained Scientology chat sites, that are totalitarian and disallow outside ex Scientologists or critics to discuss on their sites.

    Somehow getting official Scientologys UP to the point of free debate publicly, THAT is a HUGE goal.

    When Scientologists are as free as the ex official Scientologists to discuss freely, without ANY interference of official Scientologist coaching and rules, THAT will be historically significant.

    This tiny moment, when Billy Sheehan showed up in LA to one of the first anonymous protests, is SO important.

    We don't see such reaches from official Scientologists, because they have to back down, retreat, when Xenu and "body thetans" is discussed.

    What has to happen, is the outside world has to demonstrate that it can talk about Xenu and body thetans in neutral spiritual religious history terms, so extensively, that the Hubbard "suppressive act" rules become irrelevant.

    When the Hubbard penalty rules become irrelevant, then official Scientology will let those rules slip out of use.

    So, I see this as a longer range "battle."

    When Xenu and body thetans discussion is SO simply done in layman's terms, and in neutral terms, "respectfully" and "comparatively", as any discussion of any religion's or spiritual groups' spiritual ideas are discussed in public; THEN Scientology will allowed to "reform" since the society around them will absolutely understand them.

    I think Xenu and "body thetans" are always valid discussion.

    There are so many Hubbard references to how important the "body thetan" spiritual therapy removal procedures ARE to the goals of Scientology, that is absolutely a public service to neutral and easily, in layman's terminology, detail the Xenu and "body thetans" spiritual ideas.

    "Body thetan" removal in Hubbard's final writings, the spiritual "body thetan" removal procedures get the lion's share of time, with resultant spiritual improvement, for Scientologists.

    SO it is absolutely critical for anyone who thinks they understand Scientology, or who wishes to understand what it is that Scientology supposedly offers to new potential Scientologists, for the Xenu and "body thetans" removal spiritual procedures to be explained in SIMPLE language.

    To me, when the world outside Scientology understands disconnection in detail to how disconnection is used more as a control method, and when the outside world understands the Xenu and "body thetans" spiritual removal procedures, THEN Scientology will be forced to adapt.

    Right now, Scientology is still in Turtle totalitarian mode.

    Mentioning "Xenu" and "body thetans" causes official Scientologists to go turtle.

    Mentioning disconnection makes them go into snapping turtle mode.

    Chuck
  23. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    When people ask someone who is a Scientology protestor, besides all of the things you want to say, I urge you also to give them a briefing in simple neutral language of what Scientology's spiritual beliefs are, and to explain, PLEASE make this point, explain to the listener that the "Xenu" and "body thetan" removal spiritual procedures are the BULK of Scientology's "upper levels" and the MOST time consuming and supposedly the MOST important spiritual improvement activities, and that Scientologists are NOT allowed to discuss the MOST important of their spiritual procedures.

    So it is ALWAYS a HUGE public service to tell people, even people who have NO intention of ever joining Scientology, to tell them in simple language, neutral language this point.

    "Body thetan" removal, the dead space alien exorcism, is the BULK of Scientology's spiritual practice.

    The Scientology "upper levels" called OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 have essentially ALL to do with "body thetan" and "body thetan cluster" removal, which is dead space alien souls exorcism.

    THAT has to be ALWAYS told to anyone interested.

    And spoken LONG ENOUGH, and simply enough, and it will become public knowledge for WHAT Scientology really is.

    It IS dead space alien soul exorcism to a HUGE degree. This cannot be overstated.

    Chuck
  24. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?


    Billy Sheehan interviewed by Mark Bunker, very important and about as good as it gets in getting a Scientologist to speak publicly.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQZxv1kdrvY&feature=fvw]YouTube - Scientology: Billy Sheehan Interview 1/4[/ame]
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxrllN3cdxM&feature=channel]YouTube - Scientology: Billy Sheehan Interview 2/4[/ame]
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcaVY8lscXE&feature=channel]YouTube - Scientology: Billy Sheehan Interview 3/4[/ame]
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ-5NH41Y0I&feature=channel]YouTube - Scientology: Billy Sheehan Interview 4/4[/ame]
  25. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    KFC >> ARC
  26. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Nos, you got it wrong. Scientology if followed correctly works 100%. It's just that someone misapplied it wrongly. It's just no one has ever applied it correctly.
  27. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    I asked an OT why he wears glasses once. He came up with an answer and I accepted it because I was just a gullible clam. I can't remember the answer. It was so long ago. It doesn't matter. I only relate this story just to show you that Scientology has an answer for everything. If they don't, they will find one. Don't worry, their answers are usually lame. Either that or they will walk out on you a la Tommy Davis.

    It is still a good question in my opinion. So good that it should be asked again and again even if they don't like it. It may even erode their "certainty" one day.

    And on a lighter note here is a joke that only an ex-Scientologist would understand:

    Q: How do you confuse a bunch of Scientologists?

    A: Put them in a round room and run a "group process".
  28. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    I read your tl;dr but I'm not sure I get it.

    You say "don't attack scientology beliefs" but "talk about what those beliefs really are".
    But, as Tommy Davis says: discussion of those beliefs is offensive and itself a violation of their core principles.

    When is "free and open discussion" not an attack? When is "simplifying in layman's terms" not squirrelling and corruption?

    I prefer neutral discussion
    to LOL XENU,

    1234307093018.jpg

    but from what I gather, CoS doesn't distinguish between the two.

    And when I talk about Scientology belief and practice in neutral terms to strangers, the most common reaction is that THEY walk away laughing hysterically.

    So what are we doing wrong?
    What should we be doing instead?

    When I talk to religious persons of other faiths and sects, I emphasize that "every religion has problems, every doctrine has errors, every sect has a few bad apples, BUT" and then lay in how Scientology is structured differently. How compliance is enforced, and how they lack any mechanism for reform or relief.

    What is "neutral"? Is there a common ground we can all agree on?
    We = [Scientologists, "independent Sci", Anon, general public, religious scholars]

    If we can't agree on a neutral space, how do we maintain the neutrality you recommend?
  29. balkanAnon Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Serbia. For those who don't know, this means I can understand what are they saying in:

    -Serbia
    -Croatia
    -Bosnia
    -Montenegro

    Because languages in these countries are very similar. I can't understand Macedonian well, thought
  30. DoctorDyhard Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    Hmmm. I'm wondering, If somebody is asked to leave by a scientologist, or told to, or just degraded or whatnot, in an attempt to get them to go away... If there was a clever way to phrase "why don't you make me?" such that you are asking, If they indeed havethese powers, why don't they just use them to get you away.
    I think this is a pretty direct approach. While they can always get out of performing parlour tricks such as counting fingers behind your back, or leaving their bodies in front of a crowd, by saying "Oh thats benieth me, it's too trivial to use my super powers on, or I just dont want to right now... If they are telling you to leave, clearly they DO WANT you to leave, and obviously find it important enough to confront you about, So they can hardly claim it is too trivial to use powers on, If they, do, you can always say "well if it doesn't matter to you, then I will just stay right here.

    It may actually be kind of a funny defense if they call The Police on you. You can always say "I assumed they were just joking about telling me to leave. I mean, If theywere serious I assumed they would just use their OT powers on me.
  31. Soljenitsyne Member

    Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    I never realized it to that point.
    Awesomely interesting, and highly important.
    Truth beautifully told.
  32. Re: Rethinking strategy, challenging Scientology beliefs?

    They lie and try to deny that is their belief.

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