Discussion in 'Martin Ottmann' started by moth, Nov 10, 2013.
ok drama queen
Was that a 'bu-by' to the kids, too?
I suppose, if a mobster rang you up and told you 'We got your kids. Do exactly what I tell you or you'll never see them again' you'd LOL and laugh your ass off, wave 'em bu-by and sort out your stuff. After all, aren't there billions more of them little munchkins out there?
Nope just to the relationship. The children part is a real pickle. Never been there and don't know how that would work out. I have seen so much suffering and upset when there are kids involved.
You keep on "supposing". Whatever floats your boat.
So the combined testimony of those families to me personally, as well as the hundreds of ex-members on record who have detailed experiencing the same abusive disconnection practices, are drama queens?
I'll side with empiricism, the audio recordings from undercover journalists, the voluminous policy letters detailing the disconnection policy, the stacks of SP declares, etc. thank you very much.
No just you.
Yes, you will.
On this particular site, in this particular forum, the enemy IS scientology.
I disagree kinda.
That's your free will choice.
Here, unlike in scientology, you are entitled to your opinion.
But I'm not gonna let anyone tell me my opinion.
Strikes me as funny that Scientology seems to have some military motif that it promotes (I see lots of people in uniforms - seems silly as fuck to me but what do I know. Street clothes…. military clothes, it could be said and I do say, that they are just two different costumes so hey, to each their own) but WWP people often talk like they are at war, very us and them, and those shrieking terrible "enemies" over there……. so maybe the military costume is appropriate after all.
Let's see now. We have:
- Literally hundreds of ex-members describing how abusive disconnection is;
- Reports from undercover journalists (My personal favourite being 'Thorsten Brock', which featured audio recordings of Scientologist officials pressuring him into disconnecting from his girlfriend);
- The internal policy letters, including how to write a disconnection letter and how to conduct an 'ethics' handling;
- Dox from ex-members including audio recordings of phone calls (including ones using the threat of disconnection to extort money), letters and SP declares;
All of the above evidence the same sorry story – whether it be Israel or Illinois, the same abuses of disconnection (and the associated extortion and blackmailing) are present.
But hey, never mind all that evidence. Some troll claims to not know about it (or that it is all an exaggeration) so I guess everything is fine and dandy!!!
This one springs to mind:
"In my time in Scientology, I never agreed with disconnection. I always swore to myself that if I was ever told to disconnect from my family, I would refuse. Ironically, it ended up the other way around – my family were all ordered to disconnect from me the day after I escaped in January 2005."
The one thing I don't get is how deluded do these trolls have to be to think this type of blatant trolling actually works???
There are consequences to decisions.
This thing happened.
The people who got into Jone's church did it of their own free will. They were transformed into Jone's private army of zombies. Forced disconnection from anyone not in the cult was a part of the process.
That's how it ended.
What's the relationship with sciloonery ? Well, Lisa McPherson and countless others died at their hands. She had a family who happened to love her. They had an interest into keeping her alive and happy. Normal humans are like that, clingy and stuff.
But you seem to be above that.
How homo novus of you.
Evidence means nothing to scilons.
What's true is what's true for them.
You are yourself arguing a hypothetical situation, since you have not been the target of disconnection by a ruthless criminal organisation.
Those two situations are comparable. Many parents of children in the Sea Org have no chance of seeing their kids again. Why? because they are somewhere out in the desert, in a compound surrounded by razor wire, slaving away on their billion-year contracts, with no means of escape.
And if you ever did somehow manage to reach them, they would tell you it was their choice.
Are you calling Captain David Miscavige and the officers of the Sea Organization silly? I assure you they are deadly serious about infiltrating and controlling governments around the world so that their policies are ultimately brought into alignment with the aims of Scientology. Just be glad you aren't a psychiatrist living in Columbia right now.
Moth, is there something else bothering you? Because your passion on this subject seems slightly . . . misplaced. If you need someone to talk to, you can register and contact me.
From HCO Policy Letter of 7 February 1965: Keeping Scientology Working Series 1
You calling it a "ruthless criminal organization" does not make it a "ruthless criminal organization". There are many people on the internet who call the US government a "ruthless criminal organization" or some version of that. People who are on the other side of the earth who are not fans of the US call the US all kinds of things - it does not make it real or true.
It just = that is how you talk about it. And you have found lots of people who agree with you and you have clustered together to form a group who reinforces the same points of view over and over and gathers as much intel that agrees with you as possible and VOILA you have a world view that occurs as real as rocks.
I don't buy it, sorry.
And it is.
I'm aaiighht. Thanks though.
Actually, can you loan me a half a million $?
When I say that I have a disagreement with the statement, "the enemy is Scientology," I mean that I don't want to fall into a trap, an obvious trap.
Sometimes I buy a cat toy on a whim that my cat ignores in favor of the crinkly bag it came in. This makes me lol because I don't think the bag is important. I'm about to throw it away. But the cat is all over it while ignoring the toy which used to be inside.
If we fight "Scientology" we might find ourselves fighting an empty bag on the verge of bankruptcy while the stuff that used to be inside that bag is someplace else, laughing at us.
"Scientology" is just a word, a label, a name brand. If you fight only the name brand your enemy will simply re-brand his ideas and keep going. So you have to understand the network of ideas within Scientology itself that are so damaging to a free and civil society.
But taking on the pseudo-science psychology and New Age system of belief within Scientology is much more difficult than taking on Scientology, Inc. So for now it's useful to have David Miscavige and the branded enterprise.
I put myself in the shoes of anyone highly invested in Scientology --like maybe David Singer and his multimillion dollar business running healthcare facilities. Re-branding seems a no-brainer from that perspective.
I just thought of a master rebrander, Kevin Trudeau. But I think he deserves his own thread...
I guess the go-round was in another thread where moth was conflating ascetic renounciation and practicing with religious orders with disconnection. Can't find the thread now, but I had a night to think on it and here is my reply, perhaps it will be found here:
Monks and nuns don't just vanish. Most have contact with their families even after they take religious orders. Most of their familes are aware that this is in the cards months and years beforehand because most established churches have a long ramp-up of commitment to even get to the 'religious ascetic' level (which is why such people are the barest percentage of the population worldwide, thy loom big because literature is written about them). Some even go back to their families after they attain the levels so they can aid and service those families and by extension neighborhoods in which they were raised.
There is a huge difference between medieval cave living and being thrust (possibly pregnant) into a parking garage and barred from leaving. Medieval ascetics only did what it took for them to stay alive. They did not run everywhere, nor did they produce to make others rich. Most of them spent three-quaters of their waking life meditating, an act which often put them at odds with the established church of the time.
Now lets do compare this with group shunning, which you, dear moth, claimed was the same thing as religious aceticism. Group shunning is a bully/gang related phenomena, the dearest hope of the initiator is that the victim is so overwhelmed and separated from what constitutes the consensus reality of a given culture, that he will be made to repent of his 'sins' (usually those of wondering why only the dominant males get the swag) and return, contrite, malleable and put in a position to be exploited.
Now I understand disconnecting from an abusive family member. I have had to kick a sibling overboard because I have no use for the white supremacy thing they got sucked into. My SO no longer speaks to a brother who was also a sexual molester. But there is no 'fair game' against them, it will not harm our 'spiritual progress' to speak on the phone to them when they call once a year, in fact there is nothing religious we need to fall back on to justify our decisions. Besides, we get along with the rest of our families perfectly well, thank you.
These examples are all as you say, observed around the world. Some we can respect, some are barbaric. I say we get rid of the outrightly barbaric practices. They are not doing us or civilization any fucking good at this point. Lurk moar. Not here, but at the font of world history. You are smart, but have no idea what you are saying. Sorry, I wish it was otherwise.
The criminal activities, as detailed by ex-members and numerous court cases (including the largest infiltration of the US government in history btw), are what qualify it for the label of "ruthless criminal organization".
A brief example. What would you call a group that;
- Stole a person's stationary and then used that stationary to send bomb threats?
- That documented internally, in great detail, their plans to frame said person for bomb threats?
- That documented internally, in great detail, their plans to utterly ruin said person's life?
Wouldn't the label of "ruthless criminal organization" be a highly accurate description for such a group? And for none, the above example is not hypothetical with all the internal document needed to prove this campaign being exposed during the FBI raids in the late 70s.
<Brief interlude from the troll for a moment>
The topic of disconnection is one that has real resonance for me.
Meeting members of families that have been ripped apart by this cult is heart-wrenching. The sheer and utter pointlessness of it all, how these families have been needlessly torn asunder simply so the cult can make money in some pointless pursuit of 'clearing the planet'. There are no words to describe how this feels.
But when this shit happens to someone you know personally? I mean like someone you really know and have come to really care for as a friend? Nothing I have experienced in my lifetime has come close to the stress, the worry and the strong feeling that your innards are being diced to bits. I nearly lost a good friend to this cult. All of her other friends thought this some silly alien thing, bizarre and harmless. It wasn't until she went around trying to handle all the friends individually that the penny dropped with them.
The increased pressure the cult was placing on her to disconnect was obvious, with the threat being used as a means of extorting money. It was like watching a person being slowly broken, as if they were drowning in slow motion while all we could do was stand there and watch the whole sorry episode unfold. It was clear what the cult were demanding, and to have that sinking feeling as if it was 'only a matter of time before she disappears' is the worst thing in the world I've ever felt. It was like the whole experience was just eating my humanity, and having this kind caring person being turned into a mindless zombie was soul-destroying to watch. It was sicking, both figuratively and literally.
When she jumped the cult it was one of the happiest days of my life. Relief, joy, ecstasy, etc., all meaningless words that do not come anywhere close to capturing the moment. I still get a chill down my spine when I think of just how close we came to losing her. Meeting families only gives a sample taste of what disconnection is – to actually be subjected to it with someone you care for is a totally different ball-game. Seeing someone you care for finally drown in this way takes a lot of out of you, and those who been on the receiving end have lost more than just their loved-ones – some of their humanity, some of their joy and some of their sanity goes with it.
As one family member so eloquently put it, disconnection is like a death in the family without the closure of a funeral.
Anyone really think a transparent and pathetic piece of trolling will make me forget my own experiences, and those of people who have confided and shared with me? It's trolling like this make me even more determined to destroy this cult and to stop them from inflicting the same pointless hurts on others.
<----A great demonstration of the power of language and rhetoric. With words anything can be made real and compelling.
Germany's leadership's words led people down a path that most people agree was a horror show in ww2, but hey the little guy with the moustache was good with words. Humans are great at convincing each other of whatever we set our mind to. We can argue for and prove just about anything and we do.
Out of the blue, Debeers sold us all that we need diamonds to show our love and and that these shiny rocks, erm, diamonds, are priceless.
Great display on the power of words here, yep.
Ah I see. You are not fond of words.
Well in that case I marbleck noodbuzle doomstlip.
When Miscavige's evil scientology is history, it might have a new dawn with others at the helm.
And it might be gone as a threat to man. Who knows?
I won't worry about that until the time comes.
WHERE? did you get that I am "not fond of words." in what I wrote? I did not say that nor imply it. You made that up out of the blue good Sir. Again, I say, you show the power of language/words and how a person can totally create or add or shift a world of meaning with just a few words.
ITT: A moth flying towards the light, unaware of the flame
Aaaaaaannnnnnd... We have a Godwin.
The more he writes the more I lean towards a genuine, authentic sciloon troll.
Besides barely literate creationists, there aren't many types of people left who'll godwin a thread seriously.
more evidence on the power of language as this person tries to categorize another person using words to invalidate the whole thing in 20 words. Using the "Godwin" word is suppose to be like a finishing rifle shot to the head? You say that word and it is done, you called it? Just more brilliant use of words IMO.
Only cult members use the bolded term in the manner you have. Just sayin'.
Flunk. Get your TRs in you out-ethics cat!
I don’t know what is worse, a funeral or disconnection. I’ve experienced both. At least with disconnection, you would not be pressured into chanting “Hip Hip Hooray” as your friend’s life is quickly forgotten by the others assembled.
oh well it is settled then, you called it, I am a "cult member". No need to wonder about that any more.
This is why the loaded language of the cult is a double edged sword. On the one hand it is a terrifically effective controlling mechanism, but on the other it does flash a "CULT MEMBER" warning sign to the folks you're trying to troll.
Think about what is going on. You're ignoring voluminous evidence and testimony, generally shitting all over terrible hurt wrecked by the cult, and are posting content-free 'good roads fair weather' to an audience that pities you for your pathetic attempts to handle the entheta on here – bet you never imagined this would be part of your crusade to clear the planet!
Guise, I think we've broken it.
It's only repeating itself now
Yo OSA, send us a new one, this one has lost its squeak.
Says you. What about your gorgeous "loaded language"? It can be foubnd by the ton here.
Well that certainly is convenient!!
You are a labelling machine with expertise about other people? ?
You just made me cry. I feel so bad now. All those wee poor hurt folks.
No, its criminal convictions in my country make it a criminal organization. If you accept that part, I could cover the ruthless part with some quotes from judges.
Your calling the post you respond to a 'great demonstration of the power of language and rhetoric' doesn't make it so.
You had a factual response to justify the description of Scientology as a 'ruthless criminal organisation'. That is quite different from rhetoric. It is ludicrous, laughable (as well as downright dishonest) to claim otherwise. The rhetoric is all yours. You choose to ignore the facts because they don't fit your argument, and so you blunder on regardless.
It is our duty to learn to tell the difference between some leaderfag nazi spouting ignorant racist half-baked bollocks and the truth, if we want to guard against another Hitler, or some other bunch of thugs masquerading as a religion. Ignoring documented facts is not going to help you to make the distinction. Your ignorant posts so far demonstrate the perils of a little knowledge and the want of a critical faculty.
This is is why the anons at WWP insist on dox, or woe betide you.
Dox + reason > the power of words. It is you who only supplies the words, the rhetoric - that's one reason why you lost the argument.
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