I was not saying that people ever choosing to disconnect from one another, other for whatever reason, is good or bad. I was saying and I am saying that anti-scientologists vilification of Scientology's version of "disconnection" , is over the top, and does not include human's predisposition to cut each other in every day life. I see extreme cases of people shunning others individually and in groups all he time all around me in the world. Is it healthy and is it great and do I like it or like it when it happens to me or people I know? no but that is the human being being human, sometimes great, sometimes not so great. AND I DO NOT buy into or go along with the local point of view that little wee powerless frail scared weak people are being bullied or held at gun point or blackmailed or tortured or imprisoned behind barbwire or terrified for their eternal salvation as a way to be made to "disconnect", and THAT is the precious difference, according to you, that I just don't get…….so be it, so we are going to have to agree to disagree on that point.
correction: I was not saying that people ever choosing to disconnect from one another, for whatever reason, is good or bad.I was saying, and I am saying, that anti-scientologists vilification of Scientology's version of "disconnection", is too over the top for me, and it conveniently, for anti-scientogists, does not acknowledge human's predisposition to cut each other off, shun each other, in every day life. I see extreme cases of people shunning others individually and in groups all the time all around me in the world. Is it healthy and is it great and do I like it or like it when it happens to me or people I know? No, but that is the human being being human, sometimes great, sometimes not so great. AND I DO NOT buy into or go along with the local point of view that little wee powerless frail scared weak people are being bullied or held at gun point or blackmailed or tortured or imprisoned behind barbwire or terrified for their eternal salvation as a way to be made to "disconnect", and THAT is the precious difference, according to you, that I just don't get…….so be it, so we are going to have to agree to disagree on that point.
Ok Hitler destroyed much of Europe not so much cuz "words" but cuz "language and rhetoric." Are you Tom Cruise by any chance?
Once again, you are reacting to, being amused by your own words and your spin on what was said and NOT what was actually said. Where did I say 'Hitler destroyed much of Europe because of words or language and rhetoric.'? I never said this nor implied it. Are you dishonest by any chance?
In my humble opinion, in extraordinary circumstances, like abusive ones - whether it be close family or friends, if the relationship is damaging, then taking some time not speaking to the person(s) may be warranted. But, that is such a personal decision, that nobody else should even really have any direct influence of coming to a (often times, painful) conclusion like that. And, that does not have to be absolutely permanent, either. Hopefully, should a situation like that arise, the individual has a healthy support network. - The only concern you might be hearing expressed towards the subject of Disconnection is over Policy that has become very dogmatic in some cases, with outside influences calling the shots as far as an autonomous individual making those personal choices about who it is they wish to have association with.
LANGUAGE AND RHETORIC. YOU SAID LANGUAGE AND RHETORIC, NOT WORDS LIKE BEFORE. LANGUANGE AND REHTORIC. THIS IS WHAT YOUS AID.
I never said anything that began "'Hitler destroyed much of Europe because of …." Those are your words buddy.
k, so what do u think the point of bringing up Hitler was? I assume you know cuz u did it. if it werent jews or erup then wat? u have 32 min while imovie is "generating thumbnails" then Imma make a video
No mater the reason, the actual result where people become "disconnected" and people cut people out of their lives can happen over nothing and does and the results can be devastating. I recall hearing a story told by Jeff or maybe it was Beau Bridges, talking about a family brouhaha that occurred once where the family became splintered and did not talk for a long time over his father (Lloyd) yelling at his grandkids for taking too many pancakes at the breakfast table. It made no sense but it was the beginning of a long falling out. It is not just abusive and extreme relationships. People cut each other out of each others lives for just looking at them the wrong way, not liking their choice of spouses, and a host of small petty reasons. Shunning and all kinds of mundane cold shouldering is going on all the time.I know more families where the kids have not talked to their parents in 15 years for no reason at all. The issue here seems more to be that anti-scientologists believe that people should not have other people involved in their lives and in their life choices. And there is a perception that people are being forced with threats of violence and all kinds of blackmail to disconnect. That is a different matter and in all cases should involve calling in law enforcement. But police involve then I don't buy it.
Please drop the "hitler"bit. It was a mistake on my part to use that as an example, it was poorly written, please let it go.
Rhetoric, huh ? I've seen no one say that. In fact most of us insisted on the very important difference between the practice of forced shunning by a cult and ordinary cold shouldering from loved ones. You seem to think everyone's decision in those matters are always fully informed consent. Have you ever met a battered wife ?
Okay. I am not familiar with the above referred to irl example, nor do i get involved with personal family matters and life choices concerning those important and challenging life choices, whether it be temporary or more long term in scope. Even in domestic violence situations, the police or outside help is not asked for, and isolation precludes there being any intervention. This is actually common in many situations with people, just in terms of asking for help, and risking trusting an outsider to understand, support and help. I think that it can be hard for someone who is exploring a very individualized life path to fit into the family dynamic, sometimes. And, it is fair to point out that individuals make these choices. The severity of any situation is hard to compare with another, just as it is hard to compare anyone with someone else or some illusory standard. In my observation, the "kids" who have the hardest time when it comes to this subject are the ones who devoted themselves to the Sea Org. They have all communications monitored.
Those are choices people make on their own. They can be, and often are, resolved through mediation or communication between the disaffected parties. Disconnection being ordered by authority figures based a person's refusing to drink their loved one's Kool-aid is completely different, and you know it, moth. Sending out weird dictates mandating the exclusion of loved ones is wrong, too. Then, there are the forced abortions. Disconnection at its ultimate, really. Please make sense of this ^ sentence because it sounds like clay was involved. Finally, here's a little quiz for you. Humor me. Is this musical genius? Y/N I will never stop laughing. Never.
The Austin music video thing goes back to a You Tube troll. He was trolled to do that. Yeaaaaaars go. trufax
Groovy. I had skype convos with some anons where they had me laughing so hard I couldn't breathe. "Just throwin' in the dice in the game called love" Priceless.
This is actually worth reading. It is neutral. --- http://www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm
says who? where is that rule or law written in stone? Yes and in actual practice alot of society just remains disenchanted and disconnected Loaded rubbish Says you. That is you pushing your morality onto others. LOL . More rubbish. I hereby "force" you to wear a salami sandwich for a hat. Hey, where's your genoa salami hat???? That was a typo I am not in the mood to fix or explain.
I strangely could not turn it off. Feeling a bit gay right now. Not that there is anything wrong with that
One story that stands out in news today is "80 people executed in North Korea for possessing bibles and watching south korean movies." My first reaction is irritation, outrage and confusion? But then on reflection, we are no different here in the US, North Korea has rules there that will get you executed and we have rules HERE that will get you executed, the end result is the same - humans end up executed by an entity calling itself the government. It is a human activity we have not yet grown out of. Like disconnection, it happens and people have different reasons for doing it.I don't agree with it and think we would be better off to work together then to find reasons to segregate ourselves but exists and it is hypocritical of me to look down on and vilify North Korea for doing something my own country does frequently (albeit for different reasons and reasons I tell myself are more justified.) Same with so called "disconnection". Scientology has it's version of it and we all have ours. When it comes to the end result, not how it comes about, Scientology really is not doing something that we do not also do when it sits us.
if I really am some THING that can only be called an idiot and I am that thing all the time and will only ever be that thing, then I am an idiot, there is nothing I can do about that. But, you just have an opinion that I am an idiot, then that really has nothing to do with me. It is just an opinion you wound up with that you associate with me.
correction: if I really am some THING that can only be called an "idiot" and I am that thing all the time and will only ever be that thing, then I am an "idiot", there is nothing I can do about that, things are what they are. But, if you just have to find yourself with an opinion that I am an "idiot", then that really has nothing to do with me. It is just an opinion you wound up with that you associate with me. Either way, there really is not a problem.
moth, if I were to disconnect from, for the sake of argument, you, for reasons of my own, then that is one thing. If I ask all my friends also to disconnect from you, possibly with the intention of causing you harm, and more likely to cause you harm, then that is a different thing - a different end result. If I have the power to do so, and I order your employer to disconnect from you, then that is yet another thing, and will definitely cause harm to you - again, a different end result. If I, as his/her employer, order your spouse to disconnect from you, or they will lose their job, their kids, whatever, then that is yet another thing, with a different end result. Please try to rein in the impulse to respond with glib one-liners that do not address the points made. It's not worth responding to those. Please bear in mind, too, that I am not asking you here to 'buy' anything.
There has been some compelling evidence demonstrating the abusive implementation of disconnection ITT, all of which has been utterly ignored by the troll of course. After all, if one pretends certain evidence doesn't exist then it doesn't exist. Reality is based on agreement after all (according to LRH). The saddest part about this OSA trolling is that the same stories and testimonies and evidence have been coming out of the cult throughout its history. Some blasts from the distant past (1977 and 1966 respectively) showing the same disconnection abuses are given for the troll to ignore. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6709477.stm (my emphasis) http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library-item.php?iid=469 But remember kids, even in the case of a six-year-old or someone driven deeper into mental instability, disconnection is totally voluntary.
It is people winding up so called disconnected for whatever reason- and you do play a part in it. No. The result is the same, and you play a part in this result as well. The end state is one where people are disconnected. No. The result is the same, and you play a part in this result as well. The end state is one where people are disconnected. No. The result is the same, and you play a part in this result as well. The end state is one where people are disconnected. You only label what I say in that way because I do not agree with your point of view.
Hello Moth, now is a good time for me to chip in with my ten cents worth, from beginning to this point I've watched the discussion and remained silent thus far. Sometimes it's more difficult to get our point across on screen because we write in a way that's different to how we would normally speak to a person who is in the same room . So let's imagine we are in the same room and each of us is talking and listening in turn. Conversation is after all a two way street. Without anger , malice or disrespect towards you, after all we don't know each other I want to add a few things here. To begin with unless you are a member of the COS or were a member it's the only way to understand what it really entails, and how powerful the hold the church really has over you. It's truthful to say we fear for ourselves as well as those family members who are part of the church too. There are many published examples of why this is, and again with no disrespect towards yourself it might be helpful in adding to your understanding of disconnection. You might have noticed how few people really speak out against the church, with good reason too. Those that do are incredibly courageous , and I admire them so very much. It's doubtful I will ever find the nerve to speak up, better silently getting on with my life is my philosophy. In the end what I am hoping you'll understand is nothing is as simple as it looks to the outsider especially where the church is concerned. Some of us are still living in fear years after leaving because of what we know or what David Miscavige thinks we might know. All of you here have a raised valid points, KKS included with the let's drink and smoke, I salute you KKS. Seriously Moth, unless you have been on our side of the fence you will never know just how bad things can be. As a final word on how bad it gets please read the Lisa McPherson story. Silence is golden. Goodbye Moth.
You lost me when you drew absolute parallels between the United States and North Korea. If you ever read or watched the news about Korea, and were informed, you would not make such comparisons, because there are no similarities whatsoever. The USA has a system of checks and balances, and a legal system set in place. It is not run by a crazy kid walking in the footsteps of his dictator father in a country that still does not even have any electricity in large regions. There is slave labor and arbitrary imprisonment in factories there that are also prison camps. It is no secret, stories about it have been on the Nightly News.
Excellent and very adult beginning. Thank-you Well said, agreed. I take the case and it seems counter to the popular views here, that this abstract thing I will call "life" and the circumstances that make it up, has a profound pull and hold on all of us and that we choose where wil be and allow to pull us and hold us and how long we allow a thing to hold us or not. Ok. I have not noticed that I have noticed the opposite, that people involved with scientology seem to speak out more and louder than any other religion in the world. Got it. How things look/appear and how things are in reality ( as an experience in the moment, and what people say about both those two things, how they appear and what the actual experience is/was,) are rarely the same. Agreed. Seems melodramatic and teenage to me. I smoked a joint last week, found the experience sickening. I am not a fan of an intoxicated existence. I am sure things how they are and that that includes the whole spectrum of human experience and activity, the good, the bad and the ugly. I know how human beings are no matter where they are and what they are involved in. Check out people in traffic or in a line up. Extreme incidents do not define us IMO. When it suits us we sure want extreme incidents to serve us and be our ammo, it is just that way with humans. Yes, when it is. Ciao.
I am not a fan or North Korea nor would I want to live there and wish it would be free'er and less nutty but checks and balances aside, the end result is the same, people get executed, people die and the state is involved in that.
