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A debate regarding Quantum Woo

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Anonymous, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Just no.

    From Scientific American, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-entanglement-and-photo:


    (My bold)

    The quantum state is log lived, long lived enough to transport the energy from a photon down to the base of an "antenna" a few hundred atoms long. We are talking milliseconds, if not less. They are not long-lived in any meaning relevant to us humans. Also, it has nothing to do with trees. The organism where this have bee found are some cyanobacteria and an alga.

    The very basis for the twin thing is thus not there. Forget it and do something useful with your life.

    Learn2science
    • Like Like x 2
  2. The Internet Member

    I used to dislike the Hubbard types pushing quantum woo. But recently I came across something that made me hate them.

    Some background: Fritjof Capra, a real physicist swept up in New Age ideas, wrote The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels Between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism in 1975. This is where quantum woo started. "Parallels" is a weasel word. It saves him from being criticized for saying that modern physics proves the gurus are on to something, while he basically says just that.

    Then Gary Zukav wrote, The Dancing Wu Li Masters, in 1979, which dumbed down Capra for an even dumber audience. Zukav is a New Ager with no credentials in any field. Oprah loves him.

    Our friend Martin Gardner (Gardner wrote one of the earliest and most scathing reviews of Dianetics) wrote, Science: Good, Bad, and Bogus, in 1981, in which he gave a chapter to Zukav. Pretty sure he called him a crackpot.

    Screen shot 2013-10-25 at 3.50.15 PM.png
    Screen shot 2013-10-25 at 3.50.57 PM.png

    http://www.amazon.com/Science-Good-Bogus-Martin-Gardner/dp/0879755733

    Gardner died a couple years ago and thus is not in a great position to object to how his name is being used on a recent edition Gary Zukav's book:

    Screen shot 2013-10-25 at 3.14.04 PM.png
    Screen shot 2013-10-25 at 3.13.48 PM.png

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dancing-Wu-Li-Masters-Overview/dp/0060959681/

    Gardner was totally against this quantum woo bullshit. So even if Zukav selected an accurate quote from one of his articles, you can bet that the article made Zukav look like an idiot. So it's very misleading for Zukav to include such a quote on the dust jacket of his book.

    This kind of disrespect for the dead really chills me. I tried Googling up the source for the quote but couldn't find it. Anyway, fuck these quantum guys. Honest scientists don't play such games.
    • Like Like x 5
  3. Anonymous Member

    • Like Like x 2
  4. Anonymous Member

    The particle twin system in blue-green algae photosynthesis is interesting though.
  5. The Internet Member

    Do not derail my hatred of OP's quantum woo with your Marty hatred.
    • Like Like x 2
  6. The Internet Member

    Ok can you represent it mathematically? Because if you can't, it's not quantum mechanics.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Anonymous Member

    Relevant links:

    http://phys.org/news/2013-10-nature.html
    http://phys.org/news/2013-01-nature-quantum-efficient-solar-energy.html

    Certain biological systems living in low light environments have unique protein structures for photosynthesis that use quantum dynamics to convert 100% of absorbed light into electrical charge, displaying astonishing efficiency that could lead to new understanding of renewable solar energy, suggests research published today in the journal Nature Physics

    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-nature-quantum-efficient-solar-energy.html#jCp
    • Like Like x 1
  8. The Internet Member

    Yeah but OP is saying ESP is true.

    Google is totally failing me in my hunt for the context of that Gardner quote. The closest I've come:

    You see? Gardner was saying," WTF." He was not saying, "awesome!" So there is something fucked up with Zukav's book cover, just like there is something fucked up with quantum woo for the masses who don't know much physics.

    If I die and I'm quoted all over the place saying how much I admired Hubbard, I will figure out how to haunt the bad people doing that and I will be as evil a ghost as possible.

    Why would Zukav do such a thing? It's like some kind of strange Scientology handling of entheta. Dude has to be a squirrel clam.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. The Internet Member

    To drive out the darkness, light a candle. So maybe to fight quantum woo, I will pay my respects to Martin Gardner.

    Gardner was born in Oklahoma in 1914. His dad was a geologist in the oil business and his mom was a kindergarten teacher. After graduating from the U of Chicago in 1936 he worked for the Tulsa Tribune as a reporter. Then the war.
    gardner-sailor-1942.jpg


    Afterward he worked as a freelance writer, selling articles and stories to various magazines.
    martin-gardner-writing.jpg

    He got married and had kids.
    martin-charlotte-gardner-sons.jpg

    In 1952 he wrote a book, "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science", which included a chapter on Dianetics. So as oldfags go, he might be the oldest evar. Excerpt:
    You know the rule: "Try to say something kind before you point out the problems with a person's work." I just love the fact that for Dianetics, Gardner's "kind" thing was "impressive thickness."

    In 1957 Gardner started writing a monthly column called "Mathematical Games," for Scientific American. Lulz for nerds, which is why nerds like him.
    gardner-mobius-award.jpg

    Gardner never made a big deal out of himself. He just read, wrote, talked, and was nice.

    May 2010 Martin Gardner died in Norman Oklahoma. He was 95. People cried because they were sad to see him go. He was one of the good ones.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/24/us/24gardner.html?_r=0

    FUCK OFF YOU QUANTUM WOO ASSHOLES. JUST FUCK OFF. STOP SPREADING BS THAT MAKES AMERICA MORE MAGICALLY STUPID.
    • Like Like x 7
  10. The Internet,
    You are so smart.
    This is very interesting, and completely over my head. Maybe i will absorb it via osmosis.
    Until then, I cannot understand how it is that this thread doesn't have some illustrative pictures to go along with the OP. haha.
    -feefee

    let's see... how's this for "Twins"?

    [IMG]
  11. The Internet Member

    I want people to know about the evil done to Martin Gardner by Gary Zukav, one of the first quantum woo promoters. Zukav was butthurt by Gardner's criticism. So he waited until Gardner was dead then took a quote out of context to make it seem like Gardner loved his book. He put that quote right there on the jacket of his book.

    That's like putting my name on the jacket of Dianetics, with a quote, "I loved it." When what I really said was, "I loved it as a source of kindling." And doing this after I'm dead so I can't complain. Evil.
    • Like Like x 4
  12. ADT

    This thread will momentarily be about monkey brains.
    And, how the internet has proven that someone plagiarized a quote.
    [IMG][IMG]
    [IMG]
    • Dislike Dislike x 2
  13. The Internet Member

    Plagiarized? No, that's not it. This Zukav guy turned Martin Gardner, a critic of his work, into a fan of his work. With enough time passing people will accept Zukav's distorted reality as their own, due to the fact that his books sell like hot cakes. And then there's Oprah who likes to have him on her show.

    What Zukav is doing looks like Scientology. Handle the entheta. Be at-cause over MEST and other minds. You can *make* what you want to be true, true, because you are a powerful thetan who understands the tech. Just make it go right. I never had a second wife.
  14. Amazingly quick readers! Seriously? Bashing something, which you didn't even care to read? Why? Do you get cancer when you read it? Bloody me! *rotfl*
    Quote from the ominous document:
    Sometimes even 16 seem to be enough for effective censorship. The first basher even gives it a scientific notion. Like they ONLY found bacteria and algae making use of quantum entanglement. Here's my two cents as a bipod full of bacteria:
    They research algae and bacteria, because those are THE MOST PRIMITIVE life forms and they still keep finding something new like energy conversion by making use of quantum entanglement.
    It doesn't take a doctor in science to gather that this doesn't only apply to algae and bacteria (not necessarily the same way as we are a wee bit more complex).

    Follow-up bashing suggests that this is coming from Scientology. Learn to read! Quote:
    If that's coming from Scientology you gotta admire their honesty! *lol*

    The text contains a list of wars and lies they were based on. They can't all be explained with the word oil.
    Did you notice they almost dragged us into another war in Syria? So-called rebels (supported by the US) are purportedly fighting for the freedom of the country. One of the strongest fractions amongst those rebels calls itself Al-Qaeda. They are flying an Al-Qaeda flag. They created a flag! *lol* Most of those Al-Qaeda are not Syrians. There was even a Canadian suicide bomber amongst them. We support Al-Qaeda!
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/world...-backed-syrian-rebels-massacre-shia-villagers
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/asia/item/15562-syrian-rebels-massacre-christian-village
    Quote:
    They exterminated every one, down to the last fetus.
    The author suggests that the prior communism hysteria was created purposely to distract us and justify the enormous costs of armies and secret services. Once the dragon was slain terrorism was created as the new devil. Did we appease Iraq? The gas attack in Syria was so shady it reminded me of Iraq. Fortunately it didn't work this time.

    I was trying to look up references of that document. Unfortunately the censored version seems to be missing a lot. I tried to find something on Kofi Annan (Secretary-General of the United Nations) experiencing that phenomenon. I couldn't find anything in english. Well, fucks I can speak spanish
    http://lists.kaosenlared.net/seccio...te/item/51202-kofi-annan-tengo-un-sueño1.html
    translation
    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://lists.kaosenlared.net/secciones/s2/izquierdaadebate/item/51202-kofi-annan-tengo-un-sue%C3%B1o1.html&act=url

    Amazing! He experienced it twice that mad little critter. I can recommend reading the document. So far I didn't get cancer. Make up your own mind. It is not religious crap. If that is coming from Scientology then I am Kofi Annan. :-P
    Come on, bash me too! I read it. I must be stupid.
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  15. Anonymous Member

    That's a real quote.
    • Like Like x 3
  16. Anonymous Member

    Yes, and the research is really interesting and can have exciting consequences if we learn to harness the principle (highly efficient solar panels were mentioned). It does only pertain to photosynthesis though, and the quantum entanglement is still extremely short lived and has absolutely nothing to do with twins or esp or whatnot.

    Learn2science. No really, do it.
  17. The Internet Member

    OP, you can take the quantum woo out of your first post and the idea you are trying to sell, that ESP is true, remains exactly the same. The quantum woo is only there to make that idea seem fancy sciency.

    There are good reasons why ESP can *seem* to be real --e.g., confirmation bias, selective memory, social reinforcement. But you can't say it's real until you control for those things.

    In the little world of subatomic physics many things happen that are difficult for our brains to represent. So we invent analogies. We take big things we're familiar with, like waves and particles, and use those to try to capture some of what we understand mathematically about the little world. But as with Vegas, what happens in the little world generally stays in the little world.

    The inadequacies of our analogies for the little world where time goes backward and forward and particles seem linked across distance reminds us that we don't know everything yet. There's a gap there in our understanding. But guess what: you can't just fill in the gap with "magic!" That is not fair ball.
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo and
    Yes, if you support AlQueda, you must be stupid.
    Go Away.
  19. Anonymous Member

    Didn't find Gary Zukav in the Scientology Completions. But I did find him as a "possible relative" to one of the scammier Scientologists, Douglas Newman. You'll Reed Slatkin on the list also. Darn those spelling errors!

    Gary Zukav Douglas Neuman Scientology.png
  20. Anonymous Member

  21. Anonymous Member

    We live in america. The land of money. Money is so important here, that we write "in god we trust" on it just to let people know that money is our god, and that we worship it. IF ESP, or quantum woo, or all you other fucktard bullshit was real, people would have made money off of it by now. there would be documented research all about it by now. Its not real. It never was real. It never will be real.Its the same recycled scam used over and over again to take money from idiots.

    But why is this under freedom of information, and not under general discussion? What does this have to do with the NSA and the loss of privacy across the world? Why is this in the think tank?

    I am overly paranoid. this is because i enjoy being overly paranoid, being overly paranoid turns me on, because i am too depraved for anything else to work now. I think that this topic is a plant, and that the zip most likely contains a root kit or something else that's nasty so that the NSA can see who its critics are. Either that, or this was intended to be a troll thread.
  22. More bashing to cover up my posting as predicted. Simple copy and paste postings. They could fit to anything as you don't bother addressing content.
    The primitive insults (are you afraid of discussions?) suggest that you are but teenagers. Then again I know where this is coming from. All by the book. Including creating a new thread to make this one fall off the top.
    Was it that difficult to come up with something smart? Shall I help you next time? *lol*

    You know that by definition you will always be one step behind, right?
    Come on, you need to cover this up too! *rotfl*
    • Dislike Dislike x 2
  23. Huh? If you read something some wrote in the internet that you think is totally gay and incomprehensible, and then go on with your own life, does it have any deep meaning to be extracted from that because it must be a diamond covered piece of shit? And, of course, you are the only one who knows the truth about anything and we are all but sheep or something stupid. All the smart people must be in university right now or working on very interesting things, and don't have time for this bullshittery from le stupids anonymii. Have you built and taken care of your own garden, yet? OR are you going to yell at everybody else, instead.






    [IMG]
  24. Anonymous Member

    Actually, the OP post has been addressed. There is not a shred of scientific evidence ESP exists. OP seems to indicate that quantum particle twinning as used in photosynthesis in algae can produce an ESP-like phenomena in humans. Even the most casual reading of the summary of the relevant articles show that to be bullox. Seriously, OP need to read the things he quotes.
    • Like Like x 3
  25. billybob Member

    "Winner!"
  26. CarterUSP Member

    I started reading the post.
    But then someone I know in a different country got bored so I stopped reading.
    • Like Like x 2
  27. I don't think it exists. Neither does the writer, I think. But I'm only guessing. Can't see the indication either. What does telepathy have to do with energy conversion? Looks like an example for quantum entanglement in living organisms to me. If anyone had suggested that 10 years ago they would have called him mad.
    Stupid question: Why did Albert Einstein have to leave his country? This again suggests that you didn't bother to read the text. Nobody forces you. It's not a crime. You don't have to read it. What makes you an ass (=donkey as I'm old) is that you try to keep others from reading it. Are they not entitled to make up their own mind? Do you think they will fall for something and you have to safe them?
    Thank you for the links. Heard about the massacre in the news. Didn't know it was an Xtian village though, but then what does it matter. :-(
    We all paid for that, be it a little shred. I got an AMD processor in here. You might have one from Intel. Those are tax $ for the US and thus the massacre. Sad.
    If your attention span is short, try ads. Seriously, nobody forces you to read anything. Unless you are still in school that is.
  28. Anonymous Member

    Godwin!
  29. Anonymous Member

    I encourage everyone to have a look at your linked document, OP. There, happy?

    OP's doc is a book-long first person account of classic schizophrenic symptoms involving vague powers inserting thoughts into the author's head. Combined with this crazy stuff are many criticisms of US intelligence activities --e.g., the NSA surveillance program, the crackdown on whistleblowers, CIA involvement in propping up dictators in South America, etc.

    Speculation on my part here: OP is attempting to "poison the well" by mixing up paranoid crazy talk with fair criticism of the NSA and other US government programs. When noobs come into a discussion they'll be put off by the crazy talk and will move on to something else.

    Listen OP, we are interested in citizen oversight of political power. We want public interest and discussion concerning the NSA program. If you want those things, and I assume you do, please don't add Alex Jones style moonbat bullshit to the conversation. Thanks in advance.

    If you work for the NSA, please think about what you are doing. Are you serving the people of this great nation or are you harming them?

    Here's the first part of OP's document just to give everyone the flavor:

    OP, if people don't read your document, my guess is that's because your document is a rambling waste of time.
    • Like Like x 2
  30. That sounds very interesting.

    I have not the time to read it, so thanks for taking the time to put in a few excerpts and explanation and context and references and all that....
  31. JohnnyRUClear Member

    I've personally tried the "go read this; I will wait here for you" tactic on people before. I don't think it ever worked. People don't obey such instructions.

    Are people too lazy? Is the tactic flawed in some other way? Discuss.
  32. The Internet Member

    Summary fail?
  33. tinfoilhatter Member


    Lazy/paranoid. I refuse to read a big wall of text because someone posted it. I dont know if they are fishing for my ip address, or if its some sort of useless shit that will just be a waste of my time.

    Now if they promised pronz on the other hand.....
  34. JohnnyRUClear Member

    ?

    That's about what it seems to come down to. No boobies, no readers. Problem is, if you have something important to say, who is going to take your message seriously if you're telling it to them from atop a giant rooster?
  35. The Internet Member

    I want a summary of a linked document or I won't click it. And if the summary turns out to be misleading or bad, then I hold a grudge toward the OP, resulting in trolling.
  36. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Ah. Well, I'm usually pretty good about things like that, so I don't think that was my trouble. I think it's more the pron thing.
  37. You might want to cut down on Auditing. It fucks up your mind!


    http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2010/05/10/untangling-quantum-entanglement/
    *whoop*
  38. The Internet Member

    Mr. Tapir, you seem to want to contradict Anonymous Member. However, I'm missing your point.

    Anonymous Member seemed to be saying that quantum entanglement was relevant to the little world of subatomic particles, not the big world of people sized things and actual seconds on the clock rather than tiny portions of a second.

    The bit you quoted from your linked article just re-states the observation that entanglement is a highly efficient means of energy transfer. "Efficient" means minimal heat is generated.

    Some tiny tiny tiny for ya, from your linked article:
    A photon hits something and another something 30 angstroms away resonates as if an antenna connected the two things. Now people are going to try to figure out what's special about the arrangement of the two things that allows this resonance to happen. Cool, but not ESP.

    The word "quantum" is used to represent the concept of discontinuity. Continuous things can be scaled. For example, you might draw a smiley face that you print out on an 8.5" x 11" piece of paper. Or you could send your drawing to a billboard company that would scale it in feet rather than inches.

    Discontinuous things cannot be scaled. They have to be represented using the relevant size or not at all. Subatomic particles are discontinuous and it's a big mistake to apply observations of those particles to anything much bigger than a photon, as the OP tried to do when he applied the concept of "entanglement" to brains.
    • Like Like x 1
  39. https://web.archive.org/web/2013091...s/2010/05/10/untangling-quantum-entanglement/
    (archive as website is currently inaccessible *woot*:))


    [IMG]


    That is not exclusive. It means that they are still trying to figure out the basics of the most primitive organisms.


    That is the short span you criticize. As long as it takes, then the next one comes along...


    What does this have to do with the human brain (mammals)? Absolutely nothing. Although I cannot exclude that some individuals catch photons in there (tape the ears!).
    When it comes to the brain it would be electrons. The brain, however, is still a big mystery.
    In short, they are still finding new and exciting mechanisms in bacteria consisting of only 7 molecules.
    From this you deduce that people experiencing the described phenomenon are mad. Even though they seem to experience it very much the same way independently. Kofi Annan is a nut case then? Many twins experience it. Do you remember how long they managed to keep the earth flat? Not because they didn't know it any better, but because it didn't fit into their (political/religious) system.
    The way you abhor this is quite religious. So you didn't experience it and you don't believe it can be possible. Big deal. That is your opinion, nothing more and nothing less.
    Stop bending passages to your needs. Nobody said we have chlorophyll in our heads. If you do, clean your ears (remove the tape first:)).
  40. Anonymous Member

    With the scale we're talking about here, both spatially and temporarily, the most likely place to find similar systems in the animal kingdom would be in mitochondria, which have a energy transfer system not entirely unlike that of cyanobacteria and choloroplasts, where a 100% energy transfer could be useful for some reactions.


    The observation of people who claim they experience ESP is entirely independent of the quantum tangle issue. What several people here have tried to say is that whatever it is that twins experience, it has nothing to do with quantum entanglement. An entanglement lasting picoseconds over distances typically measured in Ångstøms won't be able to connect people across meters and years.
    Actually, even the ancient Greeks knew the earth is spherical, they even did a fair calculation of its size based on the difference in solar angle at noon between Athens and Alexandria. The idea that people believed the Earth is flat was put forward by American historians in the late 19th century. There never was a "Flat Earth Dark Age".

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