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Are Indies still culties - what about "social shunning"?

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by RolandRB, May 1, 2013.

  1. RolandRB Member

    I think Indies are still cult members and that is why they are Indies. Scientology is such an obvious pile of shit to anyone outside looking in that I can only conclude that for those people who have left the cult, some sort of cult influence that they can not shake off is keeping them banded together as Indies. Like you can take a person out of a cult but you can not take the cult out of the person (for many of them). So do they still act like cult members after they have "left" (ha ha)? Do they still practice "social shunning" between each other, for example, in their new role as supposed "Independent Scientologists" ?
    • Like Like x 10
  2. they still believe the LRH tech regardless of it's flaws they're still cultists just in a smaller circle it goes with size and batshit insanity ladder they might be less harmful but they are still heavily indoctrinated. Unlike undies Freezoners and corporates are still very expensive compared to indies

    corporates > FZ > indies/meatballs

    don't get the wrong impression they all are full of shit.
    • Like Like x 5
  3. Gottabrain Member

    But Roland, we all know that Scientologists and Indies haz a superior tek and knowledge that the rest of us don't.

    They haz superior finger-pointing and name-calling tek. All bad news, disagreements and social or relationship problems can be handled by deciding whether the disagreeing person is SP, DB, PTS, squirrel, open-minded, untrained, no case gain, out-ethics, criminal background, drug history, sexually promiscuous, 1.1, low toned or wog and liberally gossiping about them within their group.

    This is the most superior labelling and name-calling tek, evah.

    They haz superior counselling tek. When the client cannot answer a question, they know the question is not to blame, so they persist until the sucker fabricates something from a past life. See? The tek always works.

    Scientologists and Indies are smarter than anyone else in the whole world because L Ron told them all the answers so they never have to figure things out and come up with their own answers again. So easy! Why doesn't everyone see that and do it?

    It's not culty when you are the only ones that can salvage every man, woman and child on the planet. It's just a fact.
    • Like Like x 11
  4. RightOn Member

    Hall and Marty have squared off into their own little cult sheeple groups.
    They still sleep, eat, breath and shit Scientology. they still talk the lingo.
    Those who still talk the lingo will remain in a reality limbo.
    hey I like that.
    So the answer is yes. IMO
    • Like Like x 6
  5. It's too bad that these deluded Indies won't take the time to learn about cult mechanics, because if they did they would realize that being a part of an "Independent" Scientology is still causing them harm. Their refusal to leave behind their cult personalities is a symptom of their internal disease, but from what I've read it is very hard to leave this behind.

    According to Hassan, it is a very painful process to leave behind a group where you felt needed and important even though that group is destructive and your membership meant that a different personality was created within you. I do feel pity for these people but frustration at the same time because they have access to this information but still refuse to look.
    • Like Like x 8
  6. Quentinanon Member

    You do not have to be affiliated with a 501(c)3 tax exempt corporation to be in a cult.
    Being a cult member is a state of mind involving maladaptive narcissism, delusion, and cult thinking.
    Former cult members can have difficulties functioning outside the cult due to cognitive distortions in their thinking and active schema, which made them vulnerable to cult recruitment in the first place.
    Thus, outside the scientology organisation there exist Ron's Org, the Freezone, Independent scientology, etc.
    • Like Like x 5
  7. Quentinanon Member

    Yes. Culties considered that "cult self" to have value, which it may have had during a particular moment of their life, but life circumstances and outlooks change. I will speak for myself, when I appraised the value the cult had to me three decades after getting recruited into it, I found it had high negative value and left.
    There is the ability to let go of beliefs and self-images. Scientology does not help you with that at all, rather it encourages its victims to look into past and present lives for "misunderstood words", "overts", "evil intentions, and "black propaganda" as the reason the victim disagrees with or wants to leave the cult. They do not want you to let go of scientology and want you to become a mental pack rat of scientology dogma. If you have the ability to detach from scientology, then they demonise the victim to the rest of the cult with derogatory labels, the strongest of which is "suppressive person".
    That is just a tool to facilitate continuation of the exploitive racket that materially benefits the guy at the top of the cult heirarchy.
    • Like Like x 5
  8. Anonymous Member

    I recently learned from an ex-scientologist who is very much fully out for many years and away from the programming, that the "Shatter Suppression" gimmick is just a dysphemism for disconnection.

    Suppression.gif
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Anonymous Member

    They have a need to belong to a group that verges on the neurotic. The more exclusive the group, the better and the perception of persecution gives them the extra thrill of a 'common enemy'.

    Unfortunately, many of them will lack the self-examination necessary not to go on to another cult situation in the future. Anti-cult sites are full of stories of people who kept winding up in one cult after another, supposedly searching for 'enlightenment', but instead always seeking out a certain group dynamic- ie: strong, infallible leadership and co-culties who will gladly give you the support you need as long as you are one of them.
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Gottabrain Member

    SO TRUE.

    When I first left the SO, I was terrifically vulnerable to scammers. My first year out, there was a man at work who scammed me out of about two thousand dollars in cash and credit card advances, bit by bit. I'd made the mistake of telling him I'd been on staff in Scientology.This is SO embarrassing to admit, even now.

    To this day, I don't know exactly how he did it. He told stories, lies, preyed on my desire to help, but there was much more to it. I'd see him and even start out with a determined decision not to be taken - but he'd still get something out of me - $50 here, $20 there. I hated myself for that but didn't seem to be able to prevent it. Even after I arranged to have his pay docked through the company's owner, he still took me for $100 when he invited me to lunch to apologise (his treat). How did that happen?!

    It was like a hypnotic command that I could not stop. He used touch, he would sound so desperate, so sincere. Crikey, it got to the point that I wouldn't even look up if he talked to me to be sure I wouldn't get suckered again. I was so relieved when he left the company.

    Active schema. Fark. So much of it was subconscious commands, instilled into me by my years in the Sea Org. The help thing, especially. Thwarted good intentions used to rape a person of their finances, their work, their lives.

    Never told anyone that story before - too ashamed. I really needed that money - I was struggling as a single parent and had budgeted hard to save the little I had. Yet I couldn't even begin to explain why/how it happened. It wasn't stupidity, exactly. What a horror it was to be controlled and taken advantage of by a conartist/scammer all over again.
    • Like Like x 14
  11. BlooAnon Member

    I want to say that I like this post. But I don't like this post because it's not a nice story. I hate hearing things like this from people who are out how the cult messed with them. But I don't want to dislike the post because it would cause a negative review of the post. So I'll just post this: So glad you're out Gottabrain. I send digital hugs your way.
    • Like Like x 12
  12. This type of victimization happens to us regular folks too. I've been taken by people that I thought were friends only to have them take advantage of me and treat me like an ATM (they are no longer friends). Unfortunately now I'm the hard-ass asshole that won't help out a friend or someone in need. There's no winning in this situation except for keeping your money and shaking off potential scams, even if it is someone that you know.

    It is embarrassing, yes, but temper your shame with knowing that this happens to anyone with a big heart and tons of compassion, which I suspect that you have in abundance.
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Gottabrain Member

    :) THANKS, BlooAnon! Digitial hugs right back atcha.

    Ah, it was a long time ago. I told the story because I wasn't anything like that before the Sea Org and so you all could understand the depth of the indoctrination and the subconscious loops created within a person's thinking process. When I was recruited, they just caught me at a bad point in my life and it appeared to be nothing more than a little stop-gap. It wasn't because I believed any of it. Not then, anyway.

    The after-effects were horrendous, but I'm fine now - happy with who I am and in charge of my own life. Things keep getting better.

    I'm one of the fortunate ones. I have my family. :)
    • Like Like x 6
  14. Gottabrain Member

    Thanks, C of Cy. I know what you're saying.

    There was a subtle difference, though. That lunch, for example. After I'd gone back to work, I felt like I was coming out of a trance. Srsly.

    I still help people and spend a lot of hours working in animal rescue, but I don't give or lend money anymore. When I have, it never worked out well. My susceptibility is still there, but that weird, subconscious ability to be manipulated after I came out is (as far as I know) gone.
    • Like Like x 1
  15. jonnyfreeze Member

    do scientologists do any research into the "GREAT LRH"? Is it even humanly possible to go on all the adventures he claims to have been on? How he went blind in the Navy and then through his own mental processing techniques he cured himslef of blindness, amazeing all the Navy doctors, yet the only thing on his Navy medical records was a little pink eye (maybe the great LRH liked to fart on his pillows before bed, after all our minds r to simple to understand a man of such brillance!) Independant scientologists, thats like saying i'm an independant rapist, i know rape is wrong and i stopped,but masterbating to the thought of rapeing somone still really gets my motor going. SCIENTOLOGY IS BASED OFF A SCIENCE FICTION NOVEL!!!
    • Like Like x 4
  16. RolandRB Member

    I don't know how the Indies can ignore all L. Ron Hubbard's lies and the promises that he never kept and the blatant lying cons like L12 giving making you stably exterior with full perception when it is obvious after 50 plus years that it was not true and never was. How can they hope to "get the tech right" if it was all a lying con? And they have been trying to get the tech right for years. And the Ron's Orgs have been there for decades. Nothing useful out of them either, even if you do get to telepathically converse with Xenu. More than 50 years of a lying con getting nowhere and what do they do - try to get the lying con to work? And they themselves will admit that the "gains" of doing Scientology are nothing that outsiders would recognise or be interested in so all their gains must be internally created Scientology gains and wins. A currency only worth anything within Scientology itself and laughable nonsense and usually obviously harmful to outsiders. There's a good proportion of these people who could do a creative and useful job in our wog world but instead they waste their time chasing worthless goals and even if those goals were met then it would add nothing to society. So these people must be trapped inside the cult even after they have left it because no thinking group of people would carry on the way they do.
    • Like Like x 5
  17. RolandRB Member

    I think the Indies, FZ'ers and Ron's Org people should take the opportunity in this thread to defend themselves and their actions in carrying on with Scientology and prove to us that they are not cult members.
    • Like Like x 3
  18. [IMG]
    [IMG]
    Karen is an empire builder; she excels at acquiring territory and turf. She is a true friend to LRH and a legend from the early years of the Sea Org. Today, she is a very successful and influential businesswoman, internationally recognized as a leading expert in her field. We consider Karen one of our dearest friends and a highly valuable player in the Independence movement.

    - Mike and Marty

    http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/lrh-trained-class-xii-cs-karen-de-la-carrierejentzsch/
  19. RightOn Member

    you can't be serious Roland? Or was this post sarcastic?
    they don't have to prove anything to anyone and certainly not to "us".
    • Like Like x 1
  20. They cannot prove that, Roland, they are as much of a cult as the "church" or more.
  21. Anonymous Member

    Example to prove it. Karen, if you are NOT a cult member brainwashed then post here the content of the L's that you are so famous for.

    Ditto for Rinder, post OT 3 stuff right here. Moderators can verify it was them.
  22. Anonymous Member

    Neither of those people ever post here so... pretty much... no.
  23. How do you know?
  24. Anonymous Member

    ...cos he is one of them? :)
  25. Anonymous Member

    she could post on ESMB or OCMB anyhow
    Rinder has his own blog, he could post OT3 stuff there. Xenu Xenu Xenu
  26. Anonymous Member

    News feeds work and they save brain cells.

    UmbraFeed_zps10500990.jpg
    • Like Like x 1
  27. RolandRB Member

    Sounds like one of those gypsy hypnotist stories.

    http://magonia.haaan.com/tag/hypnotism/
    • Like Like x 1
  28. They both post here with assorted socks.

    [IMG]
  29. Gottabrain Member

    Interesting.

    I know it sounds stupid, but I'm not exaggerating. If anything, it was far worse than I've described.

    Drugs in coke? Possibly, but I don't think so. Once in my life I was slipped the date rape drug, barely made it out of that place conscious (thank god I came with a friend who got me out). I know what that feels like, which is why I don't think it was drugs. (Yes, I had the toxicity report and made a police report at the time.)

    No, he played on my mother emotions, he used touch, he nodded, and probably used a lot of other hypnotic sort of techniques that I didn't realise. I was very susceptible then, after nearly 9 yrs in the SO, but didn't know it at the time.

    My point is, exscns are extremely impressionable when they first get out. They just don't realise it. This guy was a very good con artist and he knew exactly what he was doing. He even bragged about it to my coworkers afterward and people were lecturing me for weeks. I was so embarrassed and never understood how he got me to give him money when I was so against it. I still don't.
    • Like Like x 2
  30. Anonymous Member

    [IMG]
    • Like Like x 2
  31. So in other words Mike and Marty are saying she is almost as good of con artist as they are and they don't want to compete with her for Independent Scientology marks.
  32. Gottabrain Member

    :facepalm: yeh, I can laugh at it now, too, but bloody hell, was I ever a mark back then.

    Oh shit, I just donated to WWP! Does that mean I'm still naïve?

    Nah. Couldn't be....
    • Like Like x 6
  33. Anonymous Member

    Let's do not forget that Mr. Mike Rinder was the Commanding Offer of the Office of Special Affairs for many years and run many black ops on others, including but not limited to harassment, fair game, destruction of evidence, intimidation, forceful abortions and disconnections.

    This motherfucker has a lot of attuning to do, and that is not just "talking bad about Ideal Orgs and Miscarriage".
  34. RolandRB Member

    As the "Church" declines and the deluded morons and sneering thugs it shelters leave the cult for pastures new ("The Indies") then will they become a bigger threat than the "Church"? After the "Church" has collapsed, which it might do within the next three years, then we might still have a job to finish off which will not be so easy. Is there any planning for this? I would suggest a Hubbard demolition Wiki page.
    • Like Like x 4
  35. Anonymous Member

    I do not think both targets are mutually exclusive. I consider them both "Scientology" and therefore they both (church and indies/fz'ers/etc) should be dealt with appropriately. They both use Hubbard's brainwashing and abusing so-called mental therapy and should not be allowed to take advantage of anyone.

    I am not saying to spread thin or stop anything that is being done against the church itself, but to continue and to increase the push to shut them down, all of them. DO not allow them any longer to apply mind control methods to anyone.
    • Like Like x 4
  36. RolandRB Member

    I agree. The leaders of the Indie movement are still using brainwashing techniques and control techniques to keep followers gathered around them. They will use social shunning as a threat. They will distract those Indies who dare to think their way out of the trap telling them are "figure-figuring" or some such nonsense label thought up by Hubbard to stop them looking. It is a disgusting mind control cult whether they have fine buildings or not.
    • Like Like x 4
  37. RolandRB Member

    I've got some ideas on how to get the Indies out but they are very sketchy ideas. It would be better if a person who was in for decades wrote something along these lines but did a thorough job.


    What trapped you into the Scientology cult and what still keeps you trapped as an "Indie"

    1) Social acceptance and shunning

    Most of us like to feel we are accepted by our group. When we came across Scientology as
    a new group we were "love bombed" a lot so that we felt accepted. We formed friendships
    in this new group. Even relationships and then marriage and children. All of this held
    together with an implied adherence to Scientology. We know that if we fall out of favour
    with Scientology then we lose not only the acceptance of the group but we lose our friends,
    out spouses and the love of our children. This is more than people can bear and so we are
    careful not to fall out of line with Scientology. And when they ask for money for their
    schemes then we give them that money, even if we can not afford it, to keep is as an
    accepted member of the group and well regarded.

    2) Separation from normal society

    Scietology wishes to impose its methods on our lives and deny us access to the normal
    mores of society. We are encouraged to become separated from normal society. To do that
    then society is demonized in small ways. Like telling us it is all run by drug companies
    and psychiatrists. That the world is aberrated with people acting out their "reactive
    minds". That it is a "wog world" and the Scientology way of doing things is better. We
    are told that reading newspapers and watching TV exposes us to "entheta" and that we will
    be happier if we are not exposed to it. Scientology teaches us a different language that
    we can not use in the outside world so after a while we become separated from normal
    society and fearful of it. Our "safe" society becomes Scientology society.

    3) Repression of thinking, doubts and disagreements

    We may have thought when we were newly in that some parts of Scientology were wrong. To
    get around that they have to demonize thinking. So "thinking" becomes "figure-figure" in
    Scientology - a supposed activity of the "reactive mind". And because Scientologists want
    to go "Clear" and lose their reactive mind then they stop thinking and in so doing believe
    they are defeating their reactive minds. It is quite normal for people in society to have
    doubts. If you have doubts in Scientology and check on facts then they will lose you. So
    havign doubty becomes demonized as actually "out ethics". To doubt is to be in a "Condition
    of Doubt" and this causes you to be shunned from the group until you have proven to the
    group that you have overcome this doubt. And there are punishments for disagreement. If
    you disagree then this means you have gone past a word you did not understand. So you have
    to pay for any spen tens of house rereading all you Scientology material until you have
    found that word you did not understand. And there is always the e-meter to pick up on your
    disagreements with Scientology. After a year or so of this constant pressure you will cease
    to be able to be critical of Scientology. You will not even have any doubts nor be able to
    even think of anything that you are in disagreement with. And we are pressured to do course
    after course and we get so tired that we do not have the energy to think outside
    Scientology in any case.

    4) The hopes and promises

    We would all like immunity from colds and flu, perfect recall and immunity from accidents.
    This is the obvious positive benefits of why we joined. But the longer we stay in and
    "study" Scientology then gradually these obvious goals get replaced by other goals and the
    advantages we hoped for change. The goalposts get moved. The gains we hoped for that were
    promised to us change with time until we end up persuing Scientology goals that we would
    never have bee interested in when we joined. The promises of Dianetics Clear was the bait.
    But then it got switched to Scientology Clear. And then if we ever got to Scientology
    Clear then we did not get the promised gains. Instead, Clear becomes s state where we
    realise we are mocking up our own reactive minds (bearing in mind that we had to be
    persuaded that there was such a thing as a "reactive mind") and our goals now become the
    powers that will open up to us on the OT Levels. Hubbard promised great things about the
    OT levels. On L12 he said that he would not let a person leave the ship unless they were
    stable exterior with full perception. This was a sky high goal. Of course, for those who
    parted with all that money, there was no such state to be attained. Scientology always
    dangles the carrot in front of us and when we reach what we have striven for the goal
    disappears and the carrot has moved onwards.

    5) The wasted years

    It may take twenty years or more and hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted before a
    person realises that Scientology has not given them what they wanted out of life. They
    will never get that twenty years back. If the person is an intelligent person then they
    will not want to allow themselves to feel the shame of all those wasted years of their
    life. The ywill not see Hubbard as a liar and a conman who duped them out of their money
    and the best years of their life. It is better for their own pride if they carry on down
    the same path and justify their sacrifice. Then the blame for the "Failure of the Tech"
    gets assigned to the new management of the Church and their "squirreling". Not that it
    never worked in the first place and they were lied to and constantly manipulated. And
    so you have the "Indies" - those people who think Hubbard was a great guy and they claim
    that if they can be "more standard" then the "Tech will work" and it is those people
    who can not face the shame that make out that all will be well and that others members
    should stick with the standard Scientology in the Independent sector.
    • Like Like x 4
  38. RolandRB Member

    Second attempt at getting the Indies out. It's an idea that might or might not work. It would be better if somebody who had been in for decades wrote something liek this because they would have more insight than I can put into it. But according to some people I have a way with getting my meaning across so maybe it could inspire someone else to make an effort along these lines.

    What trapped you into the Scientology cult and what still keeps you trapped as an "Indie"

    1) Social acceptance and shunning
    Most of us like to feel we are accepted by our group. When we came across Scientology as
    a new group we were "love bombed" a lot so that we felt accepted. We formed friendships
    in this new group. Even relationships and then marriage and children. All of this held
    together with an implied adherence to Scientology. We know that if we fall out of favour
    with Scientology then we lose not only the acceptance of the group but we lose our friends,
    out spouses and the love of our children. This is more than people can bear and so we are
    careful not to fall out of line with Scientology. And when they ask for money for their
    schemes then we give them that money, even if we can not afford it, to keep is as an
    accepted member of the group and well regarded.

    2) Separation from normal society
    Scietology wishes to impose its methods on our lives and deny us access to the normal
    mores of society. We are encouraged to become separated from normal society. To do that
    then society is demonized in small ways. Like telling us it is all run by drug companies
    and psychiatrists. That the world is aberrated with people acting out their "reactive
    minds". That it is a "wog world" and the Scientology way of doing things is better. We
    are told that reading newspapers and watching TV exposes us to "entheta" and that we will
    be happier if we are not exposed to it. Scientology teaches us a different language that
    we can not use in the outside world so after a while we become separated from normal
    society and fearful of it. Our "safe" society becomes Scientology society.

    3) Repression of thinking, doubts and disagreements
    We may have thought when we were newly in that some parts of Scientology were wrong. To
    get around that they have to demonize thinking. So "thinking" becomes "figure-figure" in
    Scientology - a supposed activity of the "reactive mind". And because Scientologists want
    to go "Clear" and lose their reactive mind then they stop thinking and in so doing believe
    they are defeating their reactive minds. It is quite normal for people in society to have
    doubts. If you have doubts in Scientology and check on facts then they will lose you. So
    havign doubty becomes demonized as actually "out ethics". To doubt is to be in a "Condition
    of Doubt" and this causes you to be shunned from the group until you have proven to the
    group that you have overcome this doubt. And there are punishments for disagreement. If
    you disagree then this means you have gone past a word you did not understand. So you have
    to pay for any spen tens of house rereading all you Scientology material until you have
    found that word you did not understand. And there is always the e-meter to pick up on your
    disagreements with Scientology. After a year or so of this constant pressure you will cease
    to be able to be critical of Scientology. You will not even have any doubts nor be able to
    even think of anything that you are in disagreement with. And we are pressured to do course
    after course and we get so tired that we do not have the energy to think outside
    Scientology in any case. Everybody gets pressured to join staff. If you join staff and
    leave before yur contract is up then there will be a huge freeloaders debt you think you
    have to pay. The trap is then complete. You can not leave even if you wanted to. You
    become a tool of the cult to trap in more people and you will work long hours for very
    little money to do just that.

    4) The hopes and promises
    We would all like immunity from colds and flu, perfect recall and immunity from accidents.
    This is the obvious positive benefits of why we joined. But the longer we stay in and
    "study" Scientology then gradually these obvious goals get replaced by other goals and the
    advantages we hoped for change. The goalposts get moved. The gains we hoped for that were
    promised to us change with time until we end up persuing Scientology goals that we would
    never have bee interested in when we joined. The promises of Dianetics Clear was the bait.
    But then it got switched to Scientology Clear. And then if we ever got to Scientology
    Clear then we did not get the promised gains. Instead, Clear becomes s state where we
    realise we are mocking up our own reactive minds (bearing in mind that we had to be
    persuaded that there was such a thing as a "reactive mind") and our goals now become the
    powers that will open up to us on the OT Levels. Hubbard promised great things about the
    OT levels. On L12 he said that he would not let a person leave the ship unless they were
    stable exterior with full perception. This was a sky high goal. Of course, for those who
    parted with all that money, there was no such state to be attained. Scientology always
    dangles the carrot in front of us and when we reach what we have striven for the goal
    disappears and the carrot has moved onwards.
    If even 5% of the promises of Scientology were true then they would have a huge following.
    The reality is much less than 5%.

    5) OT Powers
    Nobody has gotten OT powers from Scientology auditing in any form. From time to time
    some strange things might happen but this is the case from religion and new age
    practices of all sorts. There is nothing special about Scientology in this regard.
    Out-of-body experiences used to be common in early Scientology, especially with the
    "Book and Bottle" process. This was an extremely repetitive and boring process and it
    would be no surprise if this had a disocciative mental affect on people if continued
    for many hours or days. People from all walks of life and all religions have religious
    experiences from time to time and believe they have transcended the limitations of
    the normal world. But NONE of these people have an ability that can be demonstrated
    on demand. If anybody had such an ability then surely the Randi million dollars would
    have been won a long time ago.
    Why not put this to the test? You will know a number of people who claim they are OTs
    and are stable exterior from their body. If this is the case then they should be able
    to read playing cards placed at the back of their heads using their thetan vision or
    telepathy or something. Ask to test it on one of these people who make the claim of
    being stably exterior. None of them will oblige because they know they can not do this.
    Belief in OT powers and the belief that one day that they will be yours to command is
    one of the things keeping you trapped in Scientology. Putting it to the test will
    disabuse you of this belief very quickly.

    6) The Axioms of Scientology
    Scientology "appears" to be scientific because it is based on axioms. But these axioms
    are starting off points rather than self-evident truths. If Scientology followed a
    scientific approach then there would come the opportunity to establish these axioms
    as truths but nobody has attempted to do this. The case in point of testing supposedly
    stably exterior people if they can read a playing card placed at the back of their heads
    is something that could have been tested. If they can read the cards then people would
    feel justified in the idea that a thetan was something separate from the body and is
    just using the body. But this fundamental building block of the system of thought has
    never been tested and never will be because people know that it would fail.
    You maybe think that because Scientology appears to be scientific then it holds some
    validity and is perhaps more "advanced" that other religions or belief systems. However,
    it is not following a scientific approach and is not honest science. The axioms are
    just being used to dress a sham.

    7) Past Lives
    If you could genuinely remember past lives then there would be something of value you
    could sell to the world. If you had sudies science at school in your past lives then
    you could come up with the design for a home nuclear fusion generator or an eternal
    battery or some such other obvious useful device. Even if all your past lives lacked
    a science education and you were a soldier or a slave for all your past lifetimes then
    there would still be something you could sell like card, dice or board games that you
    could remember and market today. Instead, there is nothing useful from anybody who
    claims to remember past lives. One might conclude that all these supposed past life
    memories are a fabrication.

    8) Past Lives doing Scientology
    If you are an "Indie" then if you remember "past lives" then if you have not done so
    already, then at some future date you will remember past lives in "Scientology" or some
    such other system and will have encountered L. Ron Hubbard and/or David Miscavige in
    your past life efforts to form some sort of religion to free Mankind. I am happy to let
    you know that you are not that stupid. If this were the case then Scientology or whatever
    it was known as in your past lives would have been put on a scientific foundation (i.e.
    axioms that were proven) millions of years ago and from your past lives you would know
    what was proven and how to prove it to put the religion on a firm scientific basis. This
    never happened. No group in existence is so stupid to get that wrong lifetime after
    lifetime so it never happened. Don't allow yourself to believe you are that stupid.

    9) The wasted years
    It may take twenty years or more and hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted before a
    person realises that Scientology has not given them what they wanted out of life. They
    will never get that twenty years back. If the person is an intelligent person then they
    will not want to allow themselves to feel the shame of all those wasted years of their
    life. They will not see Hubbard as a liar and a conman who duped them out of their money
    and the best years of their life. It is better for their own pride if they carry on down
    the same path and justify their sacrifice. These are now your leaders and "tech terminals"
    in the Indie movement. Hopefully you can face your decisions of the past with more honesty.

    99) The "Wog World" wants you back
    You were once a part of the "wog world". Your good intentions got you into Scientology.
    I hope you spend time thinking through the above points and see what is keeping you
    stuck in Scientology and so break those chains. The "Wog World" needs your good intentions
    and your efforts in making this world a better place and I hope that one day you will
    rejoin it.
    • Like Like x 6
  39. Gottabrain Member

    Roland, you have a heart of gold and I think you've got something here.

    I'm willing to give it a whirl, but I was in nine years, not decades.

    Over on ESMB, there are a few captivating threads by "afaceinthecrowd" who is fully out but was in for over 20 years. I'm just catching up on those threads now. Wow, have I missed out! This ex is something special :) (and I know he is real - other oldtimers have verified him and I have a very good idea who he is, too). His insights may be just the ticket. I'm thinking maybe I can incorporate some of that into the responses. Face has written hundreds of posts, so there is a lot to go through and it will be a day or two, but I will give you my best effort.

    If you're interested and want to read some of what he says for yourself, try this thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?21698-Shooting-Stars
    • Like Like x 2
  40. RolandRB Member

    I gave that a read and it has got many insights but I think it is too long. What I want it a shortcut method for getting the Indies out who are just being held in by the delusions peddled by the senior tech terminals. They are Indies so to me they are half way out and just need to make the final break. I want to help them make that final break. Then they will be Free Beings and will have rejoined the Wog World and their good intentions can be channeled in useful directions. I was only in for five years and was never a staff memberr so I feel I lack the insight. But according to some then my style of writing cuts straight to the bone so I want something like what I wrote written by somebody who was in for a long time with better insight than myself that does the same job or better. I am sure there are Indies out there who will read stuff like I wrote (if done right) and be able to walk away from it all. This is what I am aiming for but I am not the right person to write it even though my intentions might be sharpened in the right direction.

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