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Are the Hojjatieh are here yet?

Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by Unregistered, Aug 18, 2009.

  1. FreedomAgent Member

  2. They see that their world is ending, and rather than admit they are bastards and stopping their evil, they fall back on their blind fanaticism and use it to justify not giving in, and to avoid becoming decent human beings.

    If they have to, they will create a war or a fake that they claim is the Madhi, just to get the fanatics to all fall in line and stop doubting. And to justify the atrocities they plan to commit in the future.

    They are just getting warmed up.
  3. I doubt any armed forces of a muslim country will join ranks with the Iranian armed forces. If anything, the arab neighbors are nothing but insulted that a Persian (Khamenei) is claiming to be the representative of Mahdi (a supposed Arab). As if that isn't enough, the fact that a Persian nation is claiming to be the centre figure of an arab religion just makes things even worse, especially since the mullahs are shiites and the majority of arabs are sunnis.

    So at best (from the regime's perspective), perhaps an insignificant amount of ultra-fundamental dudes from the arab armed forces will join in (if the price is right, for many of them). But all in all, Ali Saeedi's statement is just desperate rhetoric.

    Is it just me though, or is the immensely desperate tone in this statement almost creepy, besides being sad?
  4. arabs love the Islamic Republic more than anyone else except maybe nazis and anti-semites. Americans have killed alot of arabs directly or indirectly for the past century, Antarinejad is one of the only figures in the world standing up to it, therefore he is a very respected figure to arabs.

    Everytime i ddiscuss events with arabs, they have nothing but love for Khamenei and Ahmadinejad and think the protests are made by the USA in order to "westernize" Iran and steal all the country's oil.

    I always tell the arabs that I don't care who the oil money goes too as long ast he people have their basic human rights. It could be the Jewish Republic of Iran for all i care.
  5. theali Member

    captainkudzu: Waiting for the Mahdi: A Look at Twelver Islam
  6. Wow, that AN is really all over the map. He is what some call 'omni-referential,' using everything to his own gain and changing everything to his own gain. I hope I haven't offended by saying this; some might cling to the notion that he is just a practical man moving among so many dreamers. ;)
  7. yes, i grant you the fact that many arabs reason in that way out of my own experience, as i discuss these matters with the many arabs here in sweden (if their views apply to the majority of arabs in the world, i do not know for sure).

    what's important to understand though is that ahmaghinejad does this for his own political gain and not for humanistic endeavors of any kind, and i hope that this is apparent to the most of us, including the arabs you are mentioning.

    this leads to my main point, which is that they reason in that way out of political, and most certainly not religious, interest. if it comes down to religion and warfare as a result of thereof, i doubt the alliance of any majority of arabs. this i say out of my own experience after talking with arabs as well.
  8. That's weird, because most Arabs I know say they wish Iran would get bombed back into the stone age, and they say Shi'ism is a cult. Guess it depends what Arabs you talk to, huh?
  9. makes sense to me. in my view, the arabs i speak to are finding themselves in a religious and political buffet. when it comes to american imperialism, the israel-palestine situation etc., they are all happy about what the iranian regime and ahmadinejad/khamenei are doing. as soon as you mention islam with regards to iran, they back away, just because of the shiite/sunni issue.

    i guess as long as the regime verbally pukes anti-american rhetoric for the world to hear (and supporting hezbollah & co), exile-arabs are fine with it. when it comes to their moral standards (in terms of religion especially), they're not game anymore.
  10. Of course the Arab terrorists, like hezbollah, that exist only because they suck on the ayatollah's tit, fall into the group that the other ppl were talking about. They don't want to see their sugar mama, grandma khamenei, loose power. Other Arabs, on the other hand, are actual human beings, and dislike the ayatollah just like any other sane human being would.
  11. So who is in Hojjatieh? Ahamadinejad? Khamenei's son? I would like to know more about specific members and accusations.
  12. Machiavelli Member

    Essentially, everyone claiming "the arrival of the Mahdi is near" (implying that he has access to exclusive information about the Mahdi) is presumed by many people to be a Hojjatieh member. Since this is a secret society that was outlawed by Khomeini, membership can never be proven.

    People who went onto public record with something close to the above statement include Ayat. Mesbah-Yazdi (presumed leader), Ahmadi, Mashaei and now Ali Saeedi.
    Mojtaba Khamenei is not on the public record with anything at all. What he believes and wants is pure speculation. He might try to use the Hojjatieh to become Supreme Leader.

    All alumnis of Haqqani seminary must be suspected to be members of Hojjatieh. This seminary is under control of Mesbah-Yazdi and seems to be an instrument of ideological brain-washing. Alumnis of this seminary tend to end up with important posts in the IRGC and other security forces.
  13. Yes, Arab is a very loose term, sorry for the vagueness of my post!

    The Arabs that I find very supportive of the Iranian regimes are mostly Palestinians and conservative Muslims. Even though they do not agree with Shiite belief in general they find the concept of an Islamic republic with strict Sharia law appealing to them. They adore Ahmadinejad for his anti-US messages, they all praise him for the messages he sent out against Israel in NYC when he came in 2007.

    Of course, it does not help that they mostly get their news from sources like Al Jazeera and the Islamic Republic's Arabic language news channel. They believe that the peaceful protests that happened and are still happening are indeed "riots" and that Moussavi is an agent of the U.S. bent on stealing the countries oil and curupting the "pure" Islamic culture of Iran.

    They fear seeing Iranians walking in mini-skirts in the middle of Tehran. I would rather have women decide for themselves whether or not they want to dress conservative, it's none of our business to force people to dress and behave the way we want them to, Muslims all around the world should understand this very simple concept of free will.

    They don't understand that Iranian society and culture has always been very free and open-minded.
  14. I have now declared you a clear and present danger to my keyboard. How to make sure I am not drinking anything when an Unregistered posts?
  15. I find it interesting that the Jordanians refused to give any Palestinians citizenship, and revoked the citizenships they had already given, a few weeks after the Iranian elections. And now Jordan has officially congratulated AN on "being elected".

    They do not want Iran sending hizzbollah back to Jordan to stir shit up again. One Black September was enough. The Iranian regime has been behind a lot of death all over the middle east, and the Palestinians and hizzbollah have been the hands they use to cut everyone's throats with.

    Asking an Arab whether they support the people of Iran or the government of Iran is a good way to tell what kind of an Arab they really are.
  16. theali Member

    Jeff Sharlet's "The Family" & C Street

    The reminds me of the book "The Family" by Jeff Sharlet. Basically the Christian version of the Hojjatieh phenomena.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Christian_political_organization)

    Watch some of Jeff's interviews:
    YouTube - jeff sharlet

    Both groups think that their savior will appear during their lifetime. One group believe they need to build some sort of international network of Christians in order to allow Christ to return to earth and bring about the end times.

    The Hojjatieh believe the end times is coming and Mehdi, the 12th Imam will appear, in their life time. Ahmadinejad has constructed a road across Tehran for Mehdi to pass thru!

    The funny part is that Muslims accept Jesus as one of God's true prophets. So their mythology says that when Mehdi arrives, Jesus would be his top commander! Muslims think that is unifying, and of course Christians find this insulting!

    The Real News Network - Palin's Apocalypse
  17. Whether hojjatiah actively tries to bring about the return of the Madhi, tries to fake a return, or does neither, they are still very dangerous. They formed solely for the purpose of exterminating non-believers, and were too radical and extreme even for the ayatollah, so he banned them. Their blind fanaticism makes them very dangerous. There is absolutely no compromise with people like this. No maneuvering that will take them out. Nothing short of open, direct confrontation will accomplish anything with them.

    They are dangerous. And the signs that they are behind the IRG coup is very troubling.
  18. Members

    Many famous theologians and influential figures in Iran's politics after the revolution were associated (as teacher or student) with the Haghani Circle or follows its ideology:

    * Ali Fallahian,The Former Ministry of Intelligence and National Security
    * Ahmad Jannati
    * Ali Younesi, The Former Ministry of Intelligence and National Security
    * Rouhollah Hosseinian
    * Gholam Hossein Mohseni-Ejehei, The Ministry of Intelligence and National Security
    * Mostafa Pourmohammadi., Former Interior Minister
    * Mostafa ebrahimifar
    * Gholamhossein Karbaschi
    * Hojjat ol eslam Raieesi
    * Hojjat ol eslam Alizadeh
    * Gholam Reza Naghdi
    * General Zolghadr
    * General Allah Karam
    * Hossein Shariatmadari
    * Abbas Salimi Namin
    * Hasan Shaianfar



    * Mojtaba Zonnour
    * Hojjat ol eslam Izad-Panah
    * Hojjat ol eslam Meravi
    * Hojjat ol eslam Rahbar
    * Mohammad Rei-shahri, The Ministry of Intelligence and National Security
    * Hojjat ol eslam Neeiazi
    * Hojjat ol eslam Nezam-Zadeh
    * Hojjat ol eslam Mohammadi-Eraghi
    * Hojjat ol eslam Moalla
    * Sadeq Ziarati
    * Mohsen Mohammadi Eraqi
    * Hojjat ol eslam Mir-Sepah
    * Hojjat ol eslam Faker
    * Ahmad Khatami
    * Ayatollah Seyyed Hasan taheri Khorramabadi
    * Ayatollah Javadi Amoli
    * Ayatollah Dr. Ahmad Ahmadi

    Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah Yazdi, the founder of Haghani School, is President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's ideological mentor and spiritual guide.
  19. Hechicera Member

    That timing looked pretty obvious from here. Jordan does not want to be come the "de facto" Palestinian state. Israel would like this, the move was taken by Jordan right after an exchange between the US and Israel regarding settlements. Israel has brought up neighboring countries taking more permanent refugees. It was seemed a strong and direct answer to Israel's positioning in the negotiation. I'm not sure the timing to Iran's elections was important at all.
  20. I think if it was not related they would have done it a lot sooner. The timing is exactly what makes it look suspicious. I think AN was pulling some strings with people in Jordan, trying to get them to ratchet up the tension a little more so he could have some more external strife to use to distract attention away from himself. As usual, Israel cried about it for a day and no one else even cared. Didn't work. Tension level is still the same. But they tried, and it falls into the decades old pattern the regime has painted in the region.

    When things get hot in Iran for the government, bring out the boogeymen and call them names. When that doesn't work, start shit with the boogeymen through third parties, so you can play the victim if they retaliate. When that doesn't work, start beating and torturing people until they shut their mouths.
  21. Hechicera Member

    The Family is but one of a growing (there are two other large ones) movements of militant Christianity that preach a masculine, militant expansion of evangelical Christianity worldwide. Some do have close ties to the groups that think "the end is near!" or some such.

    If you want to see a really weird examples of the spread of that militant Christian brand, check out "La Familia Michoacana", the Mexican drug cartel spin-off. Blog post on them From Focus On The Family to La Familia Michoacana � July Dogs (warning one graphic picture), Time article on them La Familia: Mexico's Evangelical Drug Dealers - TIME .

    They "follow" a madman who follows an author associated with these guys: Welcome to Focus on the Family A very weird perversion. Strange stuff going on over here.
  22. AN built a wide highway for Mahdi's return. Why does the Mahdi need a wide highway to return? I would appreciate your answers, thank you.
  23. A good article from 2008 on Ahmadinejad, Mahdi and Hojjatieh.
    The name Hojjatieh derives from Hojjat (proof), one of the titles of the Mahdi; the society was founded in the mid-twentieth century by clerics to combat the Baha'i faith, founded in the nineteenth century by a prophet whom Muslim clerics have labeled and opposed as a false mahdi. The Hojjatieh grew with the help of prominent clerics and assistance from the late shah, who sought to curry favor with the clerics. It soon became a powerful nationwide organization of fundamentalists trained in Mahdism and proved a menace to the late shah.

    The Hojjatieh played an important role in radicalizing Ahmadinejad and other secular Muslim youth, students, teachers, government bureaucrats, and even some members of the armed forces prior to the 1979 revolution. Many Hojjatieh activists participated in the 1979 Islamic Revolution. But in the early 1980s, Khomeini moved against the society, both because it challenged his velayat-e faqih doctrine of leadership and because it was poised to take the reins of power in Iran. The ensuing purge of its members from the Islamic regime forced numerous aspiring advocates of the new Islamic regime, such as Ahmadinejad, to renounce or hide their membership in or sympathy for the Hojjatieh.[21]

    As a result, the Hojjatieh went underground. Accusations of membership were enough to taint aspiring politicians with disloyalty to the supreme leader. In recent years, several critics of Ahmadinejad's tenure have suggested that his administration is Hojjatieh-inspired and bent on settling scores with Khomeini's allies.[22] Such charges may not be baseless, as some Ahmadinejad supporters have publicly called for rehabilitation of the Hojjatieh and resumption of its activities against the Baha'i faith. For example, the head of the powerful Islamic Propagation Organization (IPO) in East Azerbaijan called for the "revival and strengthening of Hojjatieh Society."[23]

    Here, Ayatollah Mohammad Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi's role is notable as Iranians believe he leads the new Hojjatieh.[24] A member of the Assembly of Experts and director of the Imam Khomeini Institute, Mesbah-Yazdi is a leading proponent of Mahdism and a powerful senior cleric with great influence over Ahmadinejad, his government, the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC), and security forces.[25] He is also allegedly a trainer of hard-line clerics at the Haqqani theological college in Qom, some of whom have joined Ahmadinejad's cabinet.

    Ahmadinejad and the Mahdi :: Middle East Quarterly
  24. @ Hechicera
    The above is a Family Christian Organization mission statement of taken from your wiki link which you are saying is a "militant Christianity that preach a masculine, militant expansion of evangelical Christianity worldwide."
    Are you for real? Love and working in positive manner is a militant religion? Obama (the article is saying he belongs to that movement) is a militant?
  25. I think, if there were any Christian groups that were similar to hojjatiah, it would be the ku klux klan. Only I think hojjatiah is much worse and far more dangerous.

    Some people think any christian, or religious person period, is evil. There are no degrees or levels. To some Mother Theresa and Gandhi are evil, because they had a religion, lol. Ignore them. They are just trying to derail the discussion and turn it into an argument, so no one talks about the subject matter any more.
  26. LOLilly LOL LOL LOL. :D:D:D
  27. Hechicera Member

    @Unregistereds

    Yes, I am "for real". I know some members of some of the groups. Not the Mexican Cartel one. Of course they are not representative of all Christians! The groups come in a few variants. One type is a lot like the hojjatiah, as in they are hoping for a climactic end of times. The most rising variant (in recruits and numbers) though is the militant theology. Look up "imprecatory prayer", its weird. :eek: Among older members there is a lot of cross-over membership between them and klan (KKK klan)members. But many of the newer recruits/members it is less about race-based hate and more just plain hate.

    Obama is not one. Most think Obama is "true evil". But both Bush and Obama gave speeches to them and will address the various groups at meetings. This is, to me, a scary sign that they are a significant minority. In a few places, near me, they are a majority. There were two other politicians in the last presidential race with close ties to them.

    Those other two may not be true believers either, but the fact they feel they have to pander to these groups seems insane. Those two though would like the US to be a Christian Nation much like Israel is a Jewish nation. They promise people that at rallies. I don't mean a majority Christian nation, I mean every law overhauled to comply with strict Biblical teachings. I have no issues with Christianity, but that road won't work. We'd be years arguing about who's version of "Biblical" we were talking about! Not to mention all the non-Christians.

    And the one militant Christian theology guy that strange group in Mexico follows was indeed a member of Focus on the Family for 12 years: John Eldridge. The Julydogs link details out the connections. That blog author works with the most respected hate group tracker down here. It is not Eldridge's fault that cartel went nuts on his book that way, but why did they? He is just one author writing/talking/preaching this way. A small part of my society has just upped and gone crazy. :(

    They are strange off-shoots of more mainstream conservative groups (like the link). I too don't understand how we got from loving, positive the message in that link to heads on the dance floor in Mexico, either. But, some people did. Groups like this are just popping up. Educated people I know are following some on the net now and buying guns and stocking ammo. I don't like it at all.
  28. Obama is a member of "the family" Christian group that you linked to. So is Jimmy Carter. I'm not saying he is evil or not, I'm just saying the group you linked, the page there says that Obama and Jimmy Carter are on the group.

    The Family (Christian political organization) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  29. If you're gonna compare Christian groups to hojjatiah, you better find some violent ones. Maybe the crusaders? Hojjatiah are killers. So far, the groups you have brought up compare to them like milk compares to whiskey. Both liquids, but it pretty much stops there. The drug runners kind of compare, but they formed as drug runners first and then brought in the mask of religion later. Hojjatiah formed to exterminate religious rivals and violently promote their version of religion. They didn't bring it in later, to try and make themselves look pretty.

    But I do see what you are doing. I just don't think there are many groups that compare. Even hizzbollah and hamas formed for political reasons first, and then used religion to dress it up. Maybe al Queda? Only an al Queda that is woven into the government of a nation. They have much, much more blood on their hands than al Queda, too. Compared to them, al Queda are little kids playing in a sand box.
  30. Hechicera Member

    Heh, attending a prayer breakfast does not make you a member. Obama is not a member. That was "pandering" to them for support. Didn't work either.

    I read some of their literature. I'm serious when I say the rhetoric against him is approaching the level it may need to be reported. They really are calling Obama "pure evil", and this "We must stop this evil now. The alternative is unthinkable. " So, I don't think he is a member or liked by this one. :eek: The fact Obama felt he had to reach out at prayer breakfasts to these guys while he was running speaks volumes to their perceived power.

    Carter also attended a lot. This was in an era where they were more just conservatives, perhaps with dreams of political grandeur, but in the US that is fine. I am only worried about recent spin offs in the last decade or so. People associated with them in the past could not know the odd turn spin-off groups would take now. Carter did however recently sever his ties with one large conservative group down here for their recent religious direction. Here Jimmy Carter no longer a Southern Baptist . Now, this is a mainstream respected group. But if they are going into theological territory that makes someone as devout as Carter worried enough to visibly leave it, think where the fringe groups stand! I think he is smart to not be associated. He is still obviously a devout, practicing Christian. I may not have agreed with all his politics (I'm a cynical old grump anyway), but I do respect the man.

    This isn't one group. It's this trend here. Yes, so far only the drug related group in Mexico and a few imbalanced people have actually been violent. There have been some church shootings and cop killings associated with their rhetoric. I don't see how it will stay non-violent with the hateful tones and level of paranoia and indoctrination in some sub-groups and the gun hoarding. The militant sub-group does want violent spread their interpretation of Christianity. I really hope it stops when it gets to the "just a few crazies" acting out stage, and more than those of use near it see it for what it is. What if hojjatiah could have been stopped and marginalized when it was still small? What is it that makes these ideas catch on?
  31. You are comparing sheep to lions here. Quit trying to highjack this thread and turn it into something else. It is about hojjatiah, not your personal distrust of conservative religious groups.

    Hojjatiah is bad regardless of their religion. Even if they had no religious component, they would be bad. They have killed a lot of people. Comparing them to some political group you do not like is just like when conservatives seriously compare Code Pink to nazis, or when PETA says genocide is being committed against chickens on chicken farms. Or when the Alex Jones crowd says satanic Freemasons controlled by Jews and aliens are controlling the world. The complete lack of a comparable relationship just makes you look very out of touch.
  32. Hechicera Member

    I meant it as a side note, then just answered questions.

    Sheep and lions no. Lions to cubs, yes. Hojjatiah is bad, that is the point. I am not trying to marginalize them, but point out when others head that way. It is not about religion, itself, but the way these groups use religion is a familiar theme. Some of these groups are killing. I am not calling them Nazi's or err genocidal against chickens? :eek: Ok, as a farmer PETA cracks me up.

    You can call someone with family involved in one of the movements here, out of touch? really? Fine. All my family is conservative and religious, but not all are involved in this, whatever it is. I would love to be wrong.
  33. Hechicera, all I know is that I don't have to worry about being imprisoned or killed by those guys you seem to think have so much potential to be evil, but Baha'is do have to worry about exactly that. And many, many of them have already died, as well as many non-Baha'is, too.

    The only Christian group I have ever even heard of with "family" in their name is "Focus on the Family" which all the pro-gay groups hate, and demonize, because it is against gay marriage. They don't seem to realize that obvious over-exaggeration just hurts them themselves, and their cause. It makes people take them a lot less seriously when they have real issues to talk about. It plays real well to the choir, but not to anyone else.
  34. Jakomeyu Member

    this is a publicity stunt in order to use religious symbolism to distract from the issues
  35. Focus on Family's propaganda is slyly written. But their methods suck and do not reflect the religion to which they refer.

    Nevertheless, I do believe that Focus on Family is not comparable to the Hojjatieh. It is a faulty analogy and a red herring.

    Please let's return to the discussion on the Hojjatieh. OK?
  36. Baha’is as Precedents for Execution of Political Dissidents - Iran Press Watch

    RFE/RL Iran Report

    Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah-Yazdi. Before the 2005 elections, Mesbah-Yazdi issued a fatwa to the two million-strong Bassij, endorsing Ahmadinejad. This cleric has close ties to the Haqqani theological school in the holy city of Qom. The Haqqani seminary was formed by a group called the Hojjatieh Mahdavieh Society. This society was founded in 1953 by Mahmoud Halabi to counter the spread of the Baha'i faith in Iran. Banned by Khomeini in 1984, the group has been increasingly re-emerging from the shadows since 2002.



    What should be of deep concern to all who watch Ahmedinejad's progress should be the belief propagated by the Hojjatieh Society and also Mesbah-Yazdi. The 12th Imam can only come out of his occultation to rule the world with justice after the world has been plunged into chaos. Four of the ministers in Ahmadinejad's cabinet were said to be Hojjatieh members. Before Khomeini banned the group, many of the non-clerical individuals involved in the 1979 revolution were Hojjatieh followers.

    Haghani Circle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  37. My understanding of Khomeini is conflicted. On the one hand, people who remember the events after the revolution remember the crackdowns, the brutality, the oppression, the broken promises. On the other hand, some people seem to revere this gentleman and hold him up as a standard for those who want to rule Iran.

    Is it because the people feel that the current Hojjatieh-driven regime is far more whacko and dangerous than Khomeini's regime?

    Or because they have forgotten too soon the whacko and dangerous things that Khomeini himself said and did?

    Or because the people have decided that chess is the only game in town (even though they are not particularly good chessplayers)?

    The New Republic Aug 2009: Khamenei vs Khomeini

    How many is many? Is this article a faulty dichotomy? Is the only choice between Khomeini and Khamenei? Has the author completely discounted the majority population (young people) who don't want either?

    I would like to know the answer please. How many Iranians cling to Khomeini no matter what? I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Thank you.

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