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Big List of THOUSANDS of Exes Who Have Spoken Out

Discussion in 'Projects' started by RightOn, Jun 26, 2009.

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  1. firebug Member

    I am only an occasional visitor to this thread and rarely post here so don't really know what would be considered speaking out and from the posts above there doesn't seem to be a set standard
    I think Incredulicide is right in that where ever we draw the line, it need to be consistent.

    The last person added to the list before I "unleashed the deluge" upon you was Alessandro Russo
    An ex churchie posting his wins on a freezone blog,

    It was given the ok by Righton when it was questioned by Incredulicide. I took this to be the minimum standard for addition to the list.I believe most, if not all the names I listed would come up to the standard accepted at that time.
    If Righton wants to change to a higher standard thats fine but it has to be consistently applied to all on the list.
    I don't see how attending an independent scientologist convention is any different than having your picture posted on a blog or posting on free and able that you are a builder.Will posting on marty's blog make you a bigger SP than writing a letter to IVy. I do agree that some on the list are sketchy, maybe even some that I added. It certainly can be improved.


    Regarding the additions for Trom. Trom, Identics, Avatar, Knowledgism, Dianasis, Clearbird, Rons Org, Dianology, EST ect all incorporate LRH tech to some degree and all fall under the umbrella of the freezone. .They would all be considered suppressive groups. Any scientologist assosiated with these groups are considered SP according to the SUPPRESSIVE ACTS, SUPPRESSION OF SCIENTOLOGY AND SCIENTOLOGISTS HCO Policy Letter. In this regard, participation in Trom is no different than getting auditing from Marty. I believe posting publicly on the Trom mailing list that you were a scientologist and are doing squirrel stuff is no different than posting on Marty's blog saying you are out of the church and are doing squirrel stuff. You could argue that Trom is not pure scientology but we would have to buy go pros and visit every freezone auditor to inspect their certs and meters to make a decision if they are 100% LRH tech. (Might be fun though)
    The names added from Trom were only those that mentioned that they had been scientologist. There are more on the mailing list that have completions but don't mention scientology which I didn't add as I didn't believe the met an acceptable standard E.G.
    Leo Faulhaber
    http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/impact/impact053sponsors.html
    Dave Langley
    http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/d/dave-langley.html
    Michel Matil
    http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/m/michel-matil.html
    Ralph Clouse
    http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/r/ralph-clouse.html

    The list itself is a product of the hundreds or thousands of hours of work you have put into it.
    It should be something you are proud of. If there are names you don't feel should be there, speak up, its the only way standards will be kept. So thank you Righton for bringing this up.

    For me, one of the problems in deciding where to draw the line is that there are two different audiences, Wogs and scientologists.
    For wogs the list provides reasons to never involved with Cos and provides the media with a wealth of information on the abuses inside Cos. The "Cos bad M'kay " entries best suit this purpose.
    I believe ex-scientologists and scientologists who are still in but weighing up whether to leave or not, will see the entries where their friend is having wins outside Cos as significant, that a family member has posted on marty's blog or their old Auditor has attended an independent convention. It would be interesting to hear from scientologists or ex-scientologists what they think constitutes "speaking out"
    As far as I know none of us have been involved with scientology and cant really say what would be significant to that part of the audience.
    What is the purpose of the list?
    If it is just to document the stories of abuse from former members then or those who spoke of leaving because of the abuse suffered by others yes, a lot of names should be removed.I think this was the original idea.
    Looking over the list it has also come to include those who defied the rules of the Church by continuing to practice some form of scientology after leaving.
    Going back to the original idea would make decisions on who to include easier but I think it would have a lesser effect on those thinking of leaving

    I will think about this some more
    • Like Like x 2
  2. RightOn Member

    "I don't see how attending an independent scientologist convention is any different than having your picture posted on a blog or posting on free and able that you are a builder"


    I agreed to Allesandro, because when I went to that Inde blog, I thought she was the one who wrote that comment herself?

    There is a HUGE difference in listing your business with Free and Able because of their creed and many have comments with their business listing that ave anti sci comments and some even say "DM is a criminal".
    Being seen at a conference and having someone said they saw you there and talked to you is NOT speaking out.
    Peter Schanz is on the Trom email list and he never said anything about the COS, nor did he mention anything Scientology at all. I quoted what he said a fewp posts back.

    The Big List "creed" (if you will) is that every name on the list has to of had to speak out publicly against the COS in some form by the exact person.
    Not by someone else.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. TrevAnon Member

    Yup.

    On this thread it looks like it is just you, RightOn, Incred and me exchanging views. Maybe somehow get some more people to give their opinion? I'd gladly start a thread on ESMB but I would need a good and clear question to ask there. Same goes for other boards and/or blogs.

    Just to get extra insights to decide.
    • Like Like x 1
  4. jensting Member

    Not having any completions could be a symptom of being on staff.

    Anyway, since I waded in earlier, I would like to clarify: I agree that it's good to have a list of ex-victims who have spoken out in public[1] as opposed to just left quietly. I'm happy with them speaking out against the criminal organisation known as the "church" of $cientology, i.e. I do not particularly feel they need to also renounce Hubbard, but that's just me, it's not my list.

    [1] hey, if it's findable on Google, it's public enough for me, no Wikipedia-level strictness for me ;)
    • Like Like x 2
  5. firebug Member

    The link for Peter Schanz should have been
    http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/2012-February/002863.html

    The first link to free and able on the list is for Dave Adams http://www.freeandable.com/business-listings/by-name-and-photo/44-adams.html#rt-mainbody
    At no point does he mention Cos of ever having been a scientologist
    Is he speaking out in his own words?
    No

    The Meachams (both on the current SP List) attended an independent scientologist convention, organized by declared SPs who have sued Cos.If you read the article you will see that Cos sent one of their yellow buses with eight scientologists to harass the attendees. The harassment went on for almost three weeks. So I believe attending the conference is significant and so does the church.
    Are they speaking out in their own words?
    No

    Should Dave Adams or the Meachams be on the list?
    I see two ways of speaking out, through words and through deeds
    Adams spoke out by posting on a site critical of Cos
    The Meachams spoke out by attending a conference in defiance of Cos
    So for me, yes, both Adams and Meachams should be on the list.

    It could be argued that the Meachams case is not speaking publicly
    It is no less public that those who have commented in restricted access yahoo groups. For example
    Noel A. Land
    Bente Salbol
    Henrik Salbol

    I am not against changing the list but it needs to be done consistently
    • Like Like x 2
  6. RightOn Member

    so Peter Schanz had the wrong link, and for the 3rd time its Free and Ables CREED on their website
    A conference has no written public creed and the Meechams never said a word PUBLICALLY.

    i don't know why all of a sudden people want to change the criteria of the list.
    It has always been if they spoke out publicly. OR if they were commenting on a site that was publicly critical against the COS and they said something critical or agreed with what was written, OR if they wrote an article for a critical paper like the Ivy. OR if they were seen publicly in a video at an anti Sci protest.
    If someone on Marty's blog says,"Marty you are doing a great job and I hope to contact you soon" that is being openly critical of COS in my eyes. And if an entry was "iffy" we all voted on it.
    Sweet and simple.
    Along comes this river of names and now the criteria is more lenient. WHY?
    When I asked for the Ivy and Reconnection names to be confirmed way back when, I was hoping for proof of them speaking out somewhere else or being in completions to prove they were in. Reason being, ls some Indies got in and never were in the COS. Some names wrote articles and were never Scientologists. All the names that appeared in a paper that was critical of the COS and that was found in a public format (on the internet) is speaking out. Especially in DM's mind.
    We never added peoples names of husbands telling a story or vise versa, if the other one didn't speak themselves, unless they were "publcially" pictured together to represent that what they wrote came from the both of them. As far as I know.
    I specifically remember saying more than once "nothing from the wife" YET with a :(
    So this is the criteria we followed and we voted on the rest. Every name (again unless blatantly obvious) is individually different.

    And the important thing is that they spoke out, Which hurts the COS's credibility and shoots big holes in DM's claims that "only a few bitter apostates have left and spoken out" we wanted to prove him wrong. I hate the fact that they are continuing on with the mind fuck, but don't forget many will leave practicing Scientology all together eventually, some not. The indies and the Zoner groups are like baby steps for people leaving the COS who find it unbearable to go "cold turkey" after being in for so long and they still think their eternity is in jeopardy. Some will leave and some will never leave. Sometimes they are just too brainwashed.


    and FYI Many European names will not be in completions.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. wolfbane Member

    I vote yes on opening a Rons Org, or any kind of indie/fz operation, that's the same as a public act of protest imo.

    I hope not. The title of the big list specifically defines "spoken out" and not "kicked out or left." It has served us well as a mechanism of proving to scilons who are beginning to have doubts that they are not alone in seeing various issues/problems. It has also stood the test of time as a mechanism for encouraging more people to speak out, and not just fade away without making waves like was the norm for so many years.

    Names of people who don't speak out or do some bold action to stand up to the cult are utterly worthless to our cause, and I see their silence as protecting the cult. We are activists after all, and the point of the list has been to recognize people who actually DID SOMETHING. No fucks should be given if they did nothing.

    I vote no, that shouldn't count.
    • Like Like x 1
  8. wolfbane Member

    I disagree. That would make the list useless as a tool we can use for activism-related campaigns.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. RightOn Member


    THANK YOU!
    • Like Like x 1
  10. RightOn Member

    About Max telling a story about the Meechams...
    It is confusing, Max told the story about seeing the Meachams at a conference. He didn't quote either of them nor did they say anything publicly. BUT they also opened up some sort of center. They were former mission holders in Brazil. But no proof of them speaking out publicly, anywhere, just seen at a conference and reported by Max.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. wolfbane Member

    Then that should be good enough. I think it is a given that a FZ/Indie center would of had some sort of mission statement, announcement or other explanation as to why they exist and what they do outside of the official organization. That should be good enough imo.

    But a passing mention in an obit, article or posting written by somebody else should not count. A prime example of when it should NOT count is something we hear/see often: Person B is told Person A is an SP and they should disconnect for a list of bullshit reasons. Person B doesn't believe it, gets on the internet and investigates it, finds a lot more than they bargain for and Person B quits the cult completely. Person B eventually lands on a blog or ESMB and states why they left, mentioning Person A and the other reasons they discovered as a result of investigating Person A's SP declare.

    Person B spoke out - they should be counted. But Person A chose NOT to speak out or do anything to stand up to the cult, for whatever reason, and they should NOT be counted.
    • Like Like x 2
  12. RightOn Member

    taking a break until Thursday
  13. MOOG Member

    T4WQ6DS.jpg

    thank you RightOn, for everything ITT <3<3

    qK9pPOX.jpg
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  14. TrevAnon Member

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  15. Incredulicide Member

    After adding her name (as OT VI) the total is still at 2382 due to the removal of Irina Nor from the list, given she didn't speak out herself yet which is consistent with other spouse omissions in the past. I was wrong to justify her inclusion, and RightOn was correct :)

    In other news, an unregistered IP tried to add "(OT V in Indie)" to Bonnie Scali's entry which already had OT IV for her while in the CoS. I reverted that in the edit - we're not going down the "list the indie completions" rabbit hole, amIrite?
    • Like Like x 4
  16. Crap, no Ron's Org OT 48s?
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  17. Incredulicide Member

    :eek:

    ...

    rolling-on-the-floor-laughing-smiley-emoticon.gif
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  18. TrevAnon Member

  19. Incredulicide Member

  20. RightOn Member

    hey I am back, but geez I fell like I need a little bit more of a break. Still undecided about the kitty. Good days and bad. Making me nuts.
    Getting away did help.
    Be patient.
    k?
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  21. TrevAnon Member

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  22. TrevAnon Member

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  23. TrevAnon Member

  24. RightOn Member

    Putting my kitty down today. :(
    It's the right thing to do.
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  25. nevarmore Member

    :( my heart hurts for you RO .. been in those shoes and they weigh a thousand pounds apiece. I wish I had more to offer. May Kitteh feel the smooth caress of the high summer breeze, smell the clean cool grasses, and have lots of butterflies and beams of light to chase...
    • Like Like x 2
  26. Incredulicide Member

    All my heartfelt wishes RightOn. I too lost a feline family member, and have no better words of solace than nevarmore.
    • Like Like x 2
  27. Incredulicide Member

    Alex Ortiz (OT IV, Class 9 Auditor) brings the list total to 2385.
  28. RightOn Member

    tomorrow I will start again
    eyes too swollen today
    thanks for the kind words
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  29. Incredulicide Member

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  30. Ogsonofgroo Member

    2,400 get! (its such a noice sounding number eh :) )
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  31. Incredulicide Member

    Extra link for Ronald DeWolf aka Nibs, L. Ron Hubbrd Jnr - unpublished memoir "The Telling of Me, by Me" excerpts read by his grandson Jamie
    • Like Like x 1
  32. TrevAnon Member

    Okay, I also posted this in a Lisa McPherson thread. Only thing missing is confirmation elsewhere she was in.


    Over on ESMB someone who, as a child, witnessed the Lisa McPherson situation develop, has created an account.

    Here is her own story [I link to my own post on ESMB, in which I edited her story so it would be readable] :

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...ins-to-freedom&p=934027&viewfull=1#post934027

    In short it is a heart wrenching story like we have heard or read many others. :(

    Here is another thread where she confirms she witnessed it: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...troduce-myself&p=934504&viewfull=1#post934504
    • Like Like x 3
  33. RightOn Member

    I haven't been able to jump back on here too much.
    This is the post I just posted in the kitten thread:
    ok, so I just put my cat down last week, and last night my other cat who is 17 years old threw up blood .
    I went to the vet this morning and they told me that she has a mass, that she has liver problems and she had blood in her urine.
    I had to put her down today.
    I felt like I was in a dream. I had to put two cats down in less than a week. I am emotionally spent.
    Just ridiculous.
  34. nevarmore Member

    I am so so sorry. Take a break ... grieve. mourn. So sorry....
    • Like Like x 3
  35. MOOG Member

    RightOn, that's a lot at once. sending my love and condolences. also what nevarmore said.
    • Like Like x 4
  36. TrevAnon Member

    Damn RightOn, that's hard. :( Be strong!


    She started a thread to find out if anyone knew her parents.

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...o-any-of-you-know-who-my-parents-are&p=934705

    I'd say this is proof enough.
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  37. Incredulicide Member

  38. Incredulicide Member

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  39. Incredulicide Member

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