Discussion in 'Projects' started by RightOn, Jun 26, 2009.
I am who you speak of, what do you want to know?
Hi George! Thanks for hopping by!
Old post is old.
As you posted on a blog that is critical of the COS I wondered if you were ever a COS-member, so we would be able to add you to the big list of ex-COS members speaking out. That's what I meant when I wrote "can't find proof they were in".
Also disconnection list
Geoff Levin - left after 50 years - Clear, Upper Indoc TRs, Sea Org, guitarist in rock band People! Los Angeles - his story
Also his brother Robbie - or is that Robert?
On ESMB there's a chatbox, but it's only available for members. There's a "Jim Dandy" there who says Jeffrey Augustine is a critic, but was never in.
As far as I can find the only evidence we have of him having been in is the letter he and Karen wrote at https://www.scribd.com/document/157367691/De-la-Carriere-Letter-to-LA-City-Attorney .
Now I think that's enough evidence, as one can say that Karen (certainly an ex) confirms here he is, which I think has always been one of the standards.
But is there any other evidence?
This post https://whyweprotest.net/goto/post?id=2626787#post-2626787
I agree with him being vouched for by Karen, and also by Ron Miscavige who had him on his Life After Scientology YouTube show talking in detail about his brief time in.
Extra link for Lori Hodgson - staff, Stevens Creek San Jose California - video interview
Donald H. Rogers - aka Don Rogers - Founding member, Elizabeth New Jersey, Wichita Kansas - letter
That takes the total count to 2860
He keeps speaking out.
I say we add him.
Shouldn't this be big enough news by now that Mike or someone is like "The captain of the Freewinds has left and is speaking out!"?
I just feel uneasy that nobody has. Should we be the ones to do it in order to see if it gets debunked as some random person using this well known name as a pseudonym to comment with (and has not yet claimed to have been in)?
Now I have doubts.
On the one hand I must say speaking out these days is not such a big thing anymore, as there are already so many who have done so.
On the other hand: if someone posts as TC or JT you would certainly be right, and I'd also want a confirmation. But I also think we've added people with less evidence.
Ok, let's do this your way. I think you have a better intuition about what could be fake as (I'm assuming) you are a native English speaker. So we are not adding. Yet.
When I said "wait and see" it was to see if it hit the news big time, but if the commenter of that name mentions something like "when I was the Freewinds captain.. <insert story here>" in a comment I'm prepared to add the name, maybe with a parenthesis of (unverified) after it?
Alternatively someone could volunteer (bags not me!) to watch Scientology TV for months on end to see if any Freewinds promo shows a different captain on board (or otherwise debunks it by naming/showing Mike Napier)
Michel Laflèche Francoeur
Michel Laflèche Francoeur - left after 16 years - Sea Org for 7 months, Montreal, Flag Clearwater - his story
Justin Rybacki - https://www.gofundme.com/vkkajv64
Communicator IC posts about it on ESMB with lots of supporting, though maybe not bullet proof evidence.
I tend to believe he was in.
Extra link for Shelly Britt Corrias already on
The activity in the court document describes behavior matching his claim of working for OSA. That's good enough for me.
Justin Rybacki - left after nearly 30 years - Sea Org for 18 years, OSA, Austin Texas, Sacramento California - his story
Is there a way to find out how many names were added per unit of time, say per year?
Tried to using the big list threads here on WWP but had no luck.
Incred, maybe you have some quick fix using wiki wizardry?
Nope. Only the forum threads have that info. The current wiki was dormant for multiple years.
Not sure if good enough.
There's a Bryan Scott Henderson here: http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/impact/impact040sponsors.html
Probably not. Sounds more like a never-in academic sort of critic. The most well known Scott Henderson is a guitarist who briefly played in Chick Corea's band and as a result is highly critical of Scientology. Here's some interview excerpts:
10 years in the fight today.
It's been quite a ride.
Ginger has posted this:
Also /r/ delete the various "20" posts. I'll self report.
Extra link for Jorge Avila already on https://www.mikerindersblog.org/time-place-form-and-event-part-12/#comment-220469
Does Katie reveal her last name anywhere?
Her channel's "about" page has the following links:
When I go to that FB group I can see who the mods are and click to their profile page. It's a closed group, getting access would mean I have to apply (not going to do).
Also (beheerder = admin (or mod))
Stefan Malmström - staff for 2.5 years, Hässleholm - his story (in Swedish, translation)
Extra info and links for Danny Ramsey - left after 22 years - Pro TRs, staff for 15 years, course supervisor, Executive Director, Dallas, Flag Clearwater - his story, blog post
No 21 U
Extra link for Ramina Nunnelee - video interview
Extra link for Patrick Luscher already on https://www.mikerindersblog.org/thats-some-ideal-mission/#comment-222390
Extra info and link for Christian Stolte - Houston - wrote and performed song "Pinks and Greys"
Extra info & link for Brendan Tighe - RPF for 5 years (1 at PAC and 4 at Flag 1996-2001) - video interview (If someone has captured this video and uploaded it to Youtube that'd be easier to mirror):
Extra info & link for Geoff Levin - RPF for 3 months (Apollo, April-July 1974) - video interview
Extra link for Ann Keirns already on https://www.mikerindersblog.org/a-message-from-leah-remini-to-scientology-operatives/#comment-222756
Now officially debunked, Mike has shown up in a photo from https://tonyortega.org/2018/07/01/s...rs-of-duping-wealthy-people-on-the-high-seas/
We waited and we saw.
Dorothy Waller - left after 13 years - HCS, HCA, Phoenix Arizona, Yonkers New Yotk, Washington DC - FDA interview
Robert Waller - left after 13 years - HCA, HAA, ACC, Peoria Illinois, Washington DC, Elmyra New York - FDA interview
Brings the current total count to 2867.
Link for Peter McMahon, already on - blog post
Tony Ortega published this today:
It’s ‘Declare your Independence of Scientology Day’ here again at the Underground Bunker
Here in the United States it’s a red-letter day, and we have an annual tradition that we’re keeping alive here at the Underground Bunker. It’s Independence Day, and as in past years, we celebrate with the stories of Scientologists who have dissolved the bands that kept them in a totalitarian organization and declared their independence of it. We’re privileged this year to start off today’s celebration with an account by former Sea Org member Peter McMahon.
Continued at https://tonyortega.org/2018/07/04/i...ogy-day-here-again-at-the-underground-bunker/
I just realized this was already shared, two hours earlier.
Extra link for Justin Rybacki, already on - interview
Extra link for Peter Nyiri, already on - video interview
Justin Rybacki's gofundme campaign at https://www.gofundme.com/vkkajv64 gives some new names
Marc Dulman http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/m/marc-dulman.html
Calla Gold https://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/c/calla-gold.html
Pix of donations, this post: https://whyweprotest.net/goto/post?id=2657133#post-2657133
- signed Jeffrey's petition, this post https://whyweprotest.net/goto/post?id=2657176#post-2657176
This just in...
the Indie 500 STILL hasn't reached 500.
(although 497 is close!)
Absolutely, I'll use the URL for her abstract of the talk at https://web.archive.org/web/2018071...csahome.com/events/conferenceannual/abstracts
Posting screenshot because she has her location and name in two different posts:
Extra link for Maurice Green already on, review of "new L Ron's" (Justin Craig) book:
But: which one?
Posted on Jeffrey's petition, this post https://whyweprotest.net/goto/post?id=2657405#post-2657405
Exactly the same Clear number, 6397, is next to both entries, so.. both!
If only there was a URL which includes both entries... oh!
Nice work Trev! Total count is now 2872
Are these two former members familiar to anyone? She mentions being in for 10 years. Are they already on the list?
^ Put a post at the Underground Bunker.
ETA Answer by Tony Ortega: Chris Tringali https://tonyortega.org/2017/12/18/w...gy-a-fairy-tale-of-new-york-for-the-holidays/
Efrem Logreira - aka Efrain Logreira - left after 1 year - musician, sought refund, Los Angeles - his story
Extra info and links for Ira Chaleff - left after 13 years - OT IV, staff, Sea Org, Commanding Officer ASHO, declared, Manchester, Los Angeles - quote
The 13 years is from the 1970 "ASHO" article till his 1983 declare, but we still need to know how much earlier than 1970 he was in, ie. what year he joined, for a more accurate duration.
Extra info and link for Sandrine Litchfield - born in, staff, Flag Clearwater, Belleair Mission, Tampa Florida - video interview
Damn, this is so close. LOL
No, not a new name
Also I thought of another way the big list can be used.
ETA provided Mike and others who may have more time with a list of 460 names that have sea org in their entry
- various tweets, e.g. below, this post https://whyweprotest.net/goto/post?id=2657646#post-2657646
Katie did an interview
So now we have a blogger who does a post about her story and an interview. IMHO it would be the same if Katie did an interview with e.g. Tony Ortega.
Katie Lang - aka Katie McKenna - left after 4 years - Boston - her story, audio interview
Trev's diligence takes the total count to 2875
Add McKenna as a second name / AKA?
Oops, I forgot she says she was married aged 37, more than a decade after being in. Adding the aka now.
The result from the Laura Decrescenzo trial is all over the place. Plox to add with something like "settled for an undisclosed amount". A good reader will know what that means.
Scientology used an ice cream ‘date’ to run up $20,000 on senior’s credit cards | The Underground Bunker
The day after we reported last week on the ordeal of 75-year-old Efrem Logreira — who says the Church of Scientology ran up charges on his credit cards for courses he would never take, and which cost him thousands in interest payments — he heard from the church in a letter disputing his numbers.
Swiss website, German story (although German pronunciation in the video is the Swiss kind - can't really understand it).
Andrea Buschor, Sabrina David, Leo Buschor got out.
Names in the video - all three of them.
There's a Sabrina David in completions OT VII, L11 and L12. http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/s/sabrina-david.html
Also parents and elder sister disconnected.
Google machine translation:
Scientology dropouts unpack
24.07.2018 18:05 Matthias Kempf
Three Basler turn their back on Scientology. They talk about their difficult time and want to get others to get out.
Andrea, Sabrina and Leo are facing a new life. All three have made the exit from the Scientology sect in the last 10 months. Since then they have all been in psychological treatment. The first time they tell of their life in the sect.
"Every step is controlled, everything you do is controlled. Your life, your relationships, everything, "says Sabrina. The 28-year-old was a Scientology member for 12 years and worked for eight years in Berlin for Scientology. At a pittance. "There were $ 5 a week, maybe 10 or 20, but you could not live with that." She lived in a room with eight other women.
Andrea and Leo are siblings. Her parents are Scientologists, both of whom have been with Scientology since birth. The exit from the sect meant for the siblings the break with the parents. "It's tough. Today it is still difficult to get such a letter that the parents do not want to have anything to do with you. My older sister also wrote that to me, "says Andrea.
Now the three dropouts want to move other Scientology members to disembark. They founded a Facebook group. So they hope to find other Scientology dropouts to exchange. Andrea speaks from experience: "The beginning is very difficult when you are on your own."
Also FB works and it helps people. I hope.
ETA from someone: "If you go to the link posted you will see that it costs l8.40 to find out if pages are copy-able...Then u can request a copy for L8.40 per page"
Extra info and link for Glen McClelland - left after 4 years - Sydney - video interview
There's a thread for discussion here:
Tony Ortega: The suicide of Kristi Bouck, Orange County Scientology Clear
Robert Dam already on SP declare http://robertdam-cos.dk/Robert-Dam_SP_DECLARE.jpg
We don't have a lot of those do we?
ETA I should have known. 178 entries with "declare" I'm guessing a lot of them are links to actual declares.
Extra link for Caspar de Rijk already on http://www.robertdam-cos.dk/Meeting Caspar.html
thomas shepard already on extra link, signed Jeff's petition, this post: https://whyweprotest.net/goto/post?id=2657849#post-2657849
- Through the door interview (latest) http://alley.ethercat.com/cgi-bin/door/door.cgi?326
- Through the door http://alley.ethercat.com/cgi-bin/door/door.cgi?323
I checked all the names on the big list that have "indie 500" in their entry against the updated Indie 500 list and no longer found on the Indie 500:
Joe Benton - only evidence speaking out is Indie 500
Phil de Fontenay - only evidence speaking out is Indie 500
Marcy Fredricks - only evidence speaking out is Indie 500
Margaret Kerr - only evidence speaking out is Indie 500
Tony Pellicci - only evidence speaking out is Indie 500
Debora Reynolds - only evidence speaking out is Indie 500
So there are 6 of them we would have to delete?
I'll go see if I can find other evidence.
Phil de Fontenay https://isene.me/2013/03/22/why-are-critics-of-scientology-so-vehement/#comment-34749
No luck for the others
These are the only two names that I couldn't find in any Wayback snapshots of the Indie 500 list, and googling for "Joseph" and "Anthony" variants also produced no results of them speaking out. The total stays at 2878 with these deletions and the two previous additions.
Currently the number of names on our list relying exclusively on their indie 500 entries is down to 157, with a further 165 names still linking to the indie 500 having one link to speaking out elsewhere. Finding other evidence of both sets of names speaking out elsewhere to reduce our reliance on the indie 500 list is always encouraged.
I normally don't opine on these matters, but will this time. I say absolutely not. Do not delete them. If necessary, use a Wayback Machine link.
As explained in the July 2018 update quoted above, the reason their names were deleted from the Indie 500 List is most certainly NOT because they returned to the Church of Scientology, but instead because they have completely abandoned, Scientology.
Further, as far as the requirement of having "spoken out," their deletion from the List does not change the fact that they did, in fact, "speak out" by putting their names on the list in the first place. As indicated above, their deleting their names from the list does not serve as a retraction (as it would in the case of someone who returned to the Church of Scientology) where, as here, they are deleting their names because they have completely abandoned Scientology. Indeed, their deleting their names from the list because they have now completely abandoned Scientology can be thought of as another form of "speaking out." (By analogy, consider someone who demanded that the Church of Scientology remove their name from PR, a building, completion list, etc.)
Just a note:
Only for two (Joe Benton, Tony Pellicci ) Incredulicide couldn't find a wayback link (or something else). Those were deleted.
We are not deleting them because they haven't spoken out, or even returned to the COS.
We are deleting because we no longer have evidence they spoke out.
An example (sort of) is of course Marty Rathbun. He's still on despite his turn - or whatever you want to call it. He has spoken out - A LOT. That still stands and there's plenty of evidence.
I may have been hasty in removing those two names for this reason. We've had names in the past with speaking out evidence links that died without being resurrected and we didn't remove the names. They still had spoken out once and we did have evidence of it at the time, we just hope they'll do so again and we'll catch it/wayback it next time.
EDIT: How about this: I re-add those names with the evidence we do still have, namely the dates that each of them were on the indie 500 list and we include those dates in their entries, thanks to RightOn's posts here on WWP, and we link to her posts:
Joe Benton - on the Indie 500 list 2012-12-27
Tony Pellicci - on the Indie 500 list 2012-11-13
How many names are on where this is going on?
Whatever we choose we must always do it the same way.
In my book no actual evidence means deleting the name. By actual evidence I mean a working link that points to a quote or something that is critical of COS.
Or am I too strict? I think the list must be bulletproof.
Check my edit above your post.
See, now I get to dare you to say RightOn isn't bulletproof
EDIT: One thumbs up later, and the total is now at 2881
(and love the progression bar, LOL)
Have to say I think it's a slippery slope. Before you know we're adding because person A on the net said person B said a bad thing about the COS? (Also, it's one thing if a well known ex does it, it's something else if an Anon does it - however much I respect RO.)
On Wikipedia I've seen "citation needed" more than once. Can't we use such a thing for cases like this? So for entries where links have died and there is no other evidence and also no wayback machine link? It would help to find these cases in the list so we can, every now and then, check these out to find if there is new / better evidence.
The link for Stephen Sanborn looks weird and doesn't work)...?
Fixed. Thanks for spotting it.
We never deleted the dead links, they're all still in the wikisource, just commented out. You can find them all by doing a case insensitive search for:
We've been doing this consistently from the moment we first noticed links dying. Not long after then I began obsessively Waybacking every single link anyone put into this thread, which is why the resurrection success rates of dead links has been so high, so it's less of a problem now.
Yay for Incredulicide everyone
Srsly though: thanks for all you do.
Ok, 44 entries with "<!-- dead" in the code.
Here are some alternatives for a number of them.
Caspar de Rijk
Maybe his site
Other than that don't expect much as it looks galac-patra is pretty much dead http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Galac_Patra/info
Don't expect much as it looks galac-patra is pretty much dead http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Galac_Patra/info
Petitionspot.com link now redirects to change.org, so dead and gone. Other than that my own post at ESMB http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/question-have-people-who-signed-the-petition-left-the-cos.38671/
Lawrence Wright interviewed him/her in his book. https://books.google.nl/books?id=ER...Q#v=onepage&q=bel ferradj scientology&f=false
A Tera Hathaway link: http://www.popflock.com/learn?s=Scientology_and_abortion
Not sure: https://www.juralindex.com/church-of-scientology-international-et-al.html
The scnforum link is no longer used by an scientologist forum but by some other group. https://books.google.nl/books?id=v1...QAQ#v=onepage&q=rolf krause clearbird&f=false
Margaret J. Nicholson
Again the galac patra site. http://internationalfreezone.net/auditor.shtml
There's a Pier Paolo Caselli here: https://www.donnamoderna.com/news/societa/scientology-milano-sede-seguaci-serie-tv
Again petition signing. http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/question-have-people-who-signed-the-petition-left-the-cos.38671/
his own site http://www.pewid.ch/SCI/SCIstart.html
What's this? https://www.reddit.com/r/scientolog...ounts_of_scientologys_rehabilitation_project/
Thank you for this Trev, great stuff! I'll go through them as I get time.
Did you skip the names that've had working links added by now?
This is you forgetting we went over that 18 months ago
I just tried to find working links or alternatives for entries having one or more dead links. Or... I tried to give a reason to delete a dead link when it isn't to be expected there's going to be a working link.
As for the reddit thing: guess I should lurk moar.
So, as I got nothing better to do I decided to try and count the number of references we have for each person on the big list.
(Hey. I like stats, and it's almost Thursday 2 P.M.)
Steps I took
I downloaded the source file of the big list
I deleted the complete truthaboutscientology reference, if it was there (which I was wrong in doing, but I only found that when I was ready, and I don't plan doing this again). My purpose was to delete any proof of having been in, which in itself is not proof of speaking out. Again, I was wrong.
I deleted any webarchive reference but kept the http-reference the webarchive reference was originally about. This also turned out to be wrong. But I could care less.
I counted the number of http(s)-reference that were still in the entry for the person.
I had 109 entries with no http(s)-reference left. Checking a few of them I found the error I already mentioned when deleting the truthaboutscientology reference alltogether. A number of these 109 rely on proof of speaking out which can be found at... truthaboutscientology. Also, a number of them only have proof which is not on the net such as books, articles in papers, tv-shows and the like. See also 2nd bullet.
I had 1433 entries with only 1 reference. Again, I found here I could have missed one (or more) references as some of the webarchive references do not contain "http" after the initial "http".
Further number of entries for each number of references left in the table below.
As you can see, there are 5 entries with 12, 13 or 16 references.
On a shared third place, with 12 references: Sheila Huber and Maureen Bolstad!!!!
On a shared second place, with 13 references: Chris Shelton and Genny Long!!!111!!!!
At the number one spot, with 16 references
So much for some useless stats.
Hey COS, look at this. We have even more useless stats than you have, with 99,993457634534763458 % certainty. (No dox for that claim though, but that's not unlike you.)
Pearl E. Harlan - left after 10 years - Chicago - FDA witness
Kathy Baird aka Kathy Bergman - may be a stretch?
- Bergman speaks out https://www.mikerindersblog.org/csn-desperate-for-content/#comment-228292
- Baird completions https://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/k/kathy-baird.html
- Same person: https://veripages.com/name/Kathy/Baird/ (second entry)
A stretch is an understatement. How are we to assume veripages has everything correct if she is not listed under her current name of Bergman, yet it knows that name as an AKA? Probably best to send the 2011 image from her profile around for others on the list to match her face to her former name of Baird, along with her current age of 66 and the names of her son, Shane M Baird (35), and possible ex-husband John N Baird (no age given).
There's a relative listed as Joy E Kimball (44) and on the list is a John Kimball, though finding out if he knows Joy and Kathy through her would be a stretch.
- Was in https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.religion.scientology/_h3pNhx6AUc/rvhr9xjTZ-8J
- signed Jeff's petition and shared the link saying so, this post https://whyweprotest.net/goto/post?id=2658801#post-2658801
Michele Parent - Clear, Portland - petition signature
Total count is now 2883
^ That clear reference isn't right? "Mich Nt"?
Visit it, she's there under "the Clear List"
Ten more to Bi
Aha! Now I understand!
Given the csv's I recently got from Kristi I might be able to find more people.
Will do when I have time (and feel like doing so ).
ETA using exact name search (which has its disadvantages) no extra data found in list of cookie cutter sites and/or clear list. I only searched for those people on the list who do not already have a truthaboutscientology reference.
ETA 2 also tried this with the to be confirmed having been in list in the other thread, but again no results
Both efforts once again make me feel good about the quality of the big list.
For those on the big list without a truthaboutscientology reference I tried if they had now.
There is a Jess Pierce now in completions http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/j/jess-pierce.html
Well that's that then, I guess there's no need to manually go through and tediously check for any more.
By the way, I manually went through and tediously found nine more between Bo and the end of B.
How do you guess the link to use to find if they are in completions?
Is it always, say, the first 3 characters of the first name, and the last 3 characters of the last name?
I could maybe come up with some automated process to generate the links, which I then should try of course.
I usually go with 2 and 2, then if I get "No Information Found" I go with 1 and 1 and then use Ctrl F in the many more results for the entire last name, and F3 through those matches looking for full or partial first name matches.
Once I find a name, I can see how to refine the URL with more letters of either first or last name (or both) based on the closest (and least number of) matches in the top list of completions to avoid the "No Information Found" page.
I'll see if I can generate links and put them in a separate (not pinned) thread to make the job easier.
No time now, gotta go off to bed. Back to work tomorrow!
It'd be great to also automatically indicate whether the last name of the person is or is not found listed in the content of a link generated from their name.
If you want to experiment with doing that, try with a small group on the list with last names beginning with "Ca". I've already manually found them (4 names, 1 on the Clear List db and 3 on the Cookie Cutter db) so I'll be scoring you on accuracy
Having, for example, only 4 links to click on instead of all 28 for "Ca" names without completion links would increase efficiency 700%
Scientology is very worried about 75-year-old Efrem Logreira and his allegations | The Underground Bunker
The aka for Laura Decrescenzo is Dieckman, not Deickman
Ok, so I'm trying to deliver on what I said above at https://whyweprotest.net/threads/bi...o-have-spoken-out.57290/page-203#post-2658847
The first thing I realized I was going to have to search for the aka's also.
Checking a few names / aliasses / aka's gives there are now completions. Didn't check if timeline checks out and all that.
However, I can now delete these from my to do list.
Sarita Stachelrodt http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/s/sarita-stachelrodt.html
Gary Brown http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/g/gary-brown.html
Ira Chislof http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/i/ira-chislof.html
Dick Coanda http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/d/dick-coanda.html
-1;select pg_sleep(27.03); --
-1);select pg_sleep(40.545); --
Choose a color via Color picker or click the predefined style names!