Discussion in 'Wikileaks' started by Mark Cabian, Mar 3, 2011.
Typical Red Neck American
How about calling a day/week of mass postcard mailing and/or E-mailing to the White House? What if millions of postcards & E-mails were received from all around the world within a week time frame that just read: "Free Manning", "'Shame on you America for the treatment of Manning for exposing the truth!", to support of Wikileaks: "Stop being hypocrites of the world by pursuing Wikileaks, Assange & the torture of Manning!", or what ever to get the same message across? I like postcards because they are physical & better than letters as they don't have to go through the same security measures as letters. Plus cheaper & stamp price is cheaper.
My only concern is the White House would down play the response, however, if we had a way to know the impact would be awesome! Just a thought.
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
Rockyj is so cute and thoughtful and rational all the time, giving us reasonable actions or responses. I love it. I'll send postcards whenever.
Typical nationalist bigot (did I just invent that phrase?)
Here is more nationalistic hatred (we can do it too):
Look, all over the Americas we recognize the Europe is a degenerate, has-been culture. We are too polite to mention it. We are nice about it so that you won’t be rude to us when we use our massive money to send our collage kids to your counties to study History: things that used ot be important, like your country.
Let's face it: all the smart people left Europe when the US opened up immigration; circa 1770.
Also, for self-hating Americans: Daddy issues; the musical.
I'm going to a heterosexual thread now. No offence, you just keep on sucking totalitarian Leninist cock. They probably won't demand you get neutered for many years.
America needs socialism.
Like a fox! (My real NA name)
America already has socialism. America needs more, and needs more intelligent, socialism.
I think Phil Ochs said the beauty is the only valid form of protest. Post cards are a great idea - something that works easily and could convey the message in positive way.
I wanted to chime in on some things that have been said throughout this thread.
1. Why isnt Manning being treated like the guy who exposed My Lai?
-Because the Warrant Officer who exposed My Lai reported it to the chain of command and other higher ranking officers so that it could be handled internally. Manning didn't report the video to his chain of command, the Inspector General, or CID. Regardless of whether the video shows a war crime or not, and regardless of whether the helicopter pilots covered it up, the footage was considered classified material and he could only receive whistleblower protection had he reported it to the three groups listed.
2. Why is Manning being held in isolation and treated the way he's being treated?
- I can't comment on all of the govt's actions, but they are for the most part in line with pre-trial confinement. By the by, the governments actions will be taken into accord at the trial and if the judge feels that the govt was out of line then the judge can reduce the sentence levied against Manning (if he's convicted) in compensation. He can levy numerous charges at the govt that his rights were infringed and every single charge has to be answered to by the govt.
I think Manning tried to do right, but did it wrong. I think that the military has always tried to do its best to police itself but war is a murky murky thing with a whole lot of gray in a world we want to be black and white. To say damage was done is hard to describe, because damage doesn't always come in a clear form. Maybe he helped spark the revolutions in the Middle East and North Africa, but that's irrelevant. When it comes down to it, Manning broke the law. Maybe the context of why he did it will help him, but that's for a jury and judge to decide.
I see a lot of anger in all of this, including a lot directed at the military. There's a lot of anger still about Afghanistan, Iraq, and the war crimes that have been committed by some American troops over the past ten years. I thank God that so many have been murky situations where it isn't clear exactly what happened. I'll take questionable over another My Lai any day.
I'm not going to try and persuade anyone about the merits of Iraq or Afghanistan, or even about the military in general. I just ask that regardless of what people think, feel, or believe, please remember that some Anons are military and some of us are proud of our service and remain very committed to it.
1) Manning attempted to report abuse through the proper chain of command and was shut down, as was the man who carried the wounded children out of the van.
2) No they're fucking not.
To anonsoldier, my anger is not directed at the everyman militia of the military. It's directed towards your superiors who are using you for cannon fodder under false pretense. I love me some soldiers and sailors, unless you did some dumb shit like kill kids.
It's obvious anonsoldier would at the very least do exactly the same as the "superiors" you are talking about.
Lol. 0/10 for the troll attempt. Do you want to try for calling me a baby killer, now?
1) I'm dying for the trial to start so I can hear his excuse on why he didn't go to IG, CID, write his Congressperson, or why he didn't try further up the chain of command. It's called a chain for a reason, there's always another link a little higher and with a lot more to lose if it's found out their subordinates were doing messed up shit and they didn't know or act on it.
2) So you've seen what pre-trial confinement is like, then? It's prison. You don't get treated special because you aren't convicted of anything, you get treated like a prisoner. No radio or clock? No duh, he's got no reason to have one because the guards run your life. Solitary confinement? Have you seen what many people in America want to do to this guy? Put him in Gen Pop and you'll probably have a deadman because some of those prisoners probably feel the same way. Taking his clothes? Don't make jokes with security people, because they're obligated to treat every statement as serious. Exercising with shackles? Yeah, that's SOP.
I can't speak intelligently on every aspect of what's been reported of having been done to him, but much of it is in fact part of prison life. I'm not saying everything that is allegedly being done to him is right, but quite a bit of it is based off whatever SOPs Quantico prison has in place. Remember, Marines, they don't fuck around.
So glad ACLU is finally involved!
Agreed, but I'm not sure which part the terms of his current imprisonment are meant to punish him for.
I'm skeptical about that first part, but as to the second the military tends to present itself as black and white: a monolith of virtue based on discipline and sacrifice--shades of gray being for fags and liberals--so who is to blame if it is held to its own standards?
It's not irrelevant to the people who live in those countries.
Regarding the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I think that there is plenty of blame to go around, right on up through the ranks and out into the civilian world. Personally, I grew up around lots of vets so I am disinclined to prejudge individual soldiers. On the other hand I think that the military as an institution and, yes, sometimes individual service members are a little too quick to throw down the 'sacrifice' card, i.e. "I suffered for your freedom now you have to agree with me". The military does not 'give' me my freedom any more than the police 'give' me safety, so while I believe soldiers/vets are entitled to their pride they are not entitled to use their service to extract my consent.
very well said.
I did not know Manning was involved in the Hacker world (if this story is true about Manning's history) but it would give meaning to why he did what he did (if he did).
My Lai was an event among many activities that were conducted by the military and a relatively small group of individuals in the military could suppress this information because they controlled the flow of information.
Manning disclosed activities that were far broader both in scope and the level they rose to in government; much more complex than My Lai.
I can assure you that the government can quietly conceal things simply by ignoring them and telling other people to ignore them. It does not take a formal cover up.
There are sins of commission and sins of omission. But no matter how you get there, you arrive at the same place. If you are being told to do nothing and the Chain of Command is not going to act or even document the information that has been provided??? The information in this case was circulated before it was leaked. Have we gotten to the point where we can say “I was only following orders” and accept that as a valid defense.
I am not angry. I don’t need to jolt myself in order to have a conscience. I am also not perfect. If I screw up then I hope that I can man up and own it. That way there is some hope of setting things right. I love my country and if when the facts come out there is something we need to do to make things right, then (I hope) we are all in this together and find the dignity to do the right thing(s).
Two wrongs don’t make a right but three lefts do. I don’t see any need to make matters worse for the accused or for the country. If I were weak, afraid and wanted revenge then I would be tempted to abuse a person, but I want justice. Justice implies that I will have my self respect intact at the end of the process because the right things will be done.
Keep America strong! Keep America Free! This is your country!
Again all I can express with these awesome lyrics:
Again, when we ruled the world!
Nobody called you a baby killer, no idea where you picked that (feel free to point out how you came to see this). I'm pointing out how deeply and completely deferent you are to the "Chain of Command". I don't really care about a "Chain of Command" dogma, this is your weight to carry, your conditioned compliance to (arguable) boundaries, not mines (that's the part you fail to understand I think). I care about what is just vs. unjust, integrity vs. duplicity, etc. and for me that's what makes Manning whistleblower, and not a criminal, and no amount of "chain of command" utterances is going to convince me otherwise.
Please know we love our people who served in the military. My bro is an former Marine who served in Vietnam & I know how much he cares about his time served & his Marine bros who are lost & forgotten.
Yes. I know no one called me a baby killer. That's why I asked if they would like to progress with the troll and call me one since they already said I "would at the very least do exactly the same as the very 'superiors'" being talked about, ie implying that I would treat Soldiers as mere cannon fodder with no regard for their lives or well being while blindly adhering to ever order I am given like a sheep. I disagree with that statement, especially since none of you know my military career or what I have or have not done to take care of Soldiers. Since I've had Soldiers and NCOs go out of their way to personally thank me for what I've done, I'd hope that's an indicator that I'm doing what I can to fight for them against the system.
I think Manning is both a whistleblower and a criminal. I find it amazing that he can only be one or the other, as if the two are mutually exclusive. He's a whistleblower for the footage of the Apache and any other warcrimes stuff he leaked, but he's a criminal for the myriad of State Dept memorandums and whatnot that he also disclosed, items that were classified and of a sensitive nature but were in no way related to war crimes or other illegal activity.
As for the rest, I chalk it up to the fact that Anonymous is an anarchistic collective. There are no leaders. There is no chain of command, there is no formalized system where you are accountable to anyone but yourself. Anonymous can have that, but for a whole lot of the rest of the world that does not and cannot exist, especially in the military.
I got it, you see it as a system of arbitrary rules that I choose to submit to and so it only has importance to me. Except Manning also chose to submit to this system so it is a very real and powerful system. His choice, his conditioned compliance, and he did not fully comply. One of the conditions of this system is that you try to allow the system to correct itself before you go outside the system to Congress, the press, and the public. Is it to save face? Most likely yeah, it fucking is, because we take pride in being able to fix ourselves and when I am not given the chance to fix problems that I exist to fix, it's kind of upsetting.
Same goes for Manning, he had other ways to try and fix the problem, ways OTHER than the Chain of Command before having to resort to what he did. He didn't use them, and in the eyes of military members like myself, that looks bad and makes him look like not a team player in a job where you literally have to trust the person next to you with your life. it comes down to a huge cultural difference in how you and I see the world.
Everything I have to say is just my opinion.
In the United States the people created the government to serve the people. The military was created to provide for the common defense. The military is accountable to the government and the government is accountable to the people. The President is the Commander in Chief, because the people made it so.
Chain of command is valid within the military for specific reasons; it can keep you alive, it creates order. Chain of command imposes form on force. If chain of command conflicts with serving the people or with defending the United States, then it is important to remember that the chain of command was not the reason we created the military in the first place. Chain of command is a form and standard of conduct; it is not the only form and standard of conduct that exists.
Advocating that morality and love of country would require making judgments that would result in breaking the chain of command is not anarchy. It is simply adhering to the same moral standards we held the Nazi’s to after WWII; ‘I was following orders’ is not a valid defense. The Higher Order is the order that justifies everything else.
I do not have all of the facts concerning Manning and cannot judge him. The facts will come out in court and I can wait.
I do not believe it speaks well for our national character if we imprison him under the conditions that have been described. We are not a desperate country run by a knee walking, diaper crapping dictator that fills jails with political prisoners. This is the United States; strong and proud!
I agree. It has been established that he began to use his command of command to resolve the issue and was shot down. It has yet to be made clear whether it was his first line leader (an NCO), or his company commander (an Officer). You all may not see a difference in those, but there is a big difference. I won't get into explaining the differences because I'm in no mood to write an essay.
My point, the same point i keep repeating over and over, is that the military has MULTIPLE methods of resolving issues. PFC Bradley Manning is hardly the first person to have an issue his chain of command could or would not resolve. The Inspector General and US Army Criminal Investigations Command (CID) are both options for resolving any number of issues, including this one. If he absolutely wanted to, he could have contacted a member of Congress. Soldiers in my Company have contacted members of Congress over little shit like their spouse didn't share the rent money for a couple of months, and those Congresspeople listen to THAT.
He didn't use those options before doing what he did, and that is why I'm not entirely with the hive mind on this. If he'd gone to them, I'd like to think that he'd not be in jail and that CID would be investigating warcrimes and not him. This isn't about the chain of command anymore, and I've been trying to point out from my first post that chain of command was only one of a variety of options he had that he CHOSE not to use.
Maybe you can take some solace in the fact that it was never "your" government to begin with.
It's part of the military's job to execute innocents. This is supposed to deter the active enemy. Right.
He's different because he may have been the one who embarrassed a lot of (self-)important people higher up on the food chain. They have to make an example of someone, even f he wasn't "it".
Being very nostalgic of late..I found a program that I used to watch on TV in Los Angeles as a young woman in my 20's.
NOTE: Requires Apple's Quicktime
I'll just leave this here:
US Army Apologizes for Horrific Photos from Afghanistan
Hey soldier - you were wrong.
Your superiors were wrong.
Must be weird waking up and finding out you were one of the bad guys.
New book out about Manning:
BRADLEY MANNING: Truth or Consequences By Greg Mitchell
30 Arrested @ Bradley Manning Protest
Too many oldfart hippies.
Liking the thread title. It's interesting to me who the Government Considers their "Enemy" seeing as what he's leaked has nothing to do with helping the people in other countries, It only tarnishes the American people's support of the military.
Who do you think has the free time to hit the bricks, protest and get arrested these days: kids and old people. Baby-boomer retirees are an excellent source of bodies on the ground, so to speak: they're a growing demographic, and they're gonna have some serious shit to holler about if currents trends in social security and pensions continue. Just give em the damn masks, no one has to know.
The photos in that article and the Manning article are just... wow. I really don't know what to say. His treatment is really terrible.
On a somewhat related note, I read the other day that Interpol had , at some point, Assange on a Red level, meaning tha the was a top priority. Meanwhile Gadaffi was only at Orange. People who want to spread the truth are considered more dangerous than brutal dictators.
To many "Very Special Person"
This last part about the bad guys is some blackhat/whitehat Western movie bullshit, life don't work that way. Agree with the part about the superiors though...
Choose a color via Color picker or click the predefined style names!