Brexit: the UK goes full retard

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by The Internet, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. Mann Ace Member

    In the first article my takeaway is Grayling really hates democracy when the results are not to his liking. IE, his attitude is precisly why 17.4M voters bitch slapped him.

    As for the rest of your comment, all I can say is your elitism is showing. Both sides despise each other, is the point I take away. That is not a good prescription for future amity.
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  2. Sekee Member

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  3. At least there hasn't been a war
  4. JohnnyRUClear Member


    As I pondered all of this hoo-hah further, it occurred to me that the Leavers are mad at the Remainers for telling them what to do and not listening to their objections. And now the Remainers are mad at the Leavers for exactly the same behavior.

    Popcorn, indeed.

    Nobody listens to me, but if that should somehow change, my recommendation is: stop looking for "leaders" in the first place. Leadership is, simply, doing what needs doing, and anybody can do that, and anybody can fail to do that. There is no such thing as "a leader" just as there is no such thing as "an opponent". It's a relative term, not a general condition. Thus, perpetual endeavors to identify and follow "leaders" produce perpetual frustration when those chosen fail to be what is desired. This cyclical pattern has always existed, but now in the age of easy, instant information, the cycle has accelerated and become more ubiquitous.

    "Don't follow leaders, and watch the parking meters."
    --Bob Dylan

    "Do not look outside of yourself for the leader."
    --a Hopi elder

    Writing someone's name on a bunch of pieces of paper does not alter that person in any way, even when that activity is called an "election". That you then regard them as "elected" is purely a change in your own perception of the world; no change in the person has occurred, except for the corresponding change in their perception of the world. To subsequently treat their opinions as "the law", and attack anyone as being a "criminal" who does not accede to them, is absurd, yet pointing this out is called crazy and subversive. What utter nonsense.

    Humanity generally has not yet caught on to this, but I expect that it will. After all, there is an endless river of farce ahead until it does. This farce is only a source of consternation until you realize that it is instructive, and it is entirely optional. Stop the leader-quest and the government-farce stops with it.

    "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

    "Don't do that."
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  5. This is not one of my tribe:

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  6. JohnnyRUClear Member

  7. The Internet Member

    I agree.

    The main thing, as far as I can tell, is the sweetheart deal the UK got with the EU back in the day. That all goes away 2 seconds after leaving the EU never to return. Yet the UK will want back in 5 seconds later because it wants the EU market and it wants leverage against bad guys. So Brexit is very bad for UK economy.
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  8. The Internet Member

    My UK cousins you know I worry cuz I love you.

    Hey like that info on insulating a van for stealth camping, I found something else to help you over the next few years, just in case things get tough:

  9. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Do you mean the process of extrication, or are you talking long term? Because in the long run, Brexit is simply the UK returning their royal stewardess to her full upright position (as in sovereignty). Right? Why would that be "very bad" for them? Are you suggesting that countries in Europe don't have any practical choice about membership in the EU?

    In the near term, Brexit does look rather problematic. Complicated process is complicated.

    Your comment also assumes that the EU is stable and will still be there to be returned to. Are you sure that's the right outlook?
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  10. The Internet Member

    I think Russia wants to get rid of the EU so it can dominate energy markets and make a lot of money. Also, get its mafia doods into places where intelligence gathering and stealing is easy. And maybe most importantly, screw up the world's ability to work together toward curbing carbon emissions. So I think in the long run the UK is in a worse position without Europe and also likewise. But pretty good for Putin.
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  11. Random guy Member

    A good way to see if emotions clouds ones judgment, is to see if it still makes sense if the facts were opposite. Imagine if the vote was to remain with a similar narrow margin, and prof. Grayling argued that the result should be ignored. Do you think anyone would have even considered the letter seriously?

    It is worth noting that the Swedes voted to join the EU with a similarly narrow margin in 1994, and the Norwegians opted twice (1972 and 1994) not to join by an even slimmer margin, despite the parliament having a clear majority of joining.
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  12. Billionair Bulliess breaking economies with their Disaster or Vulture Capitalism

    FUCK them all and their bully behaviour
  13. Random guy Member

  14. Sekee Member


    The Birmingham Evening mail reports:
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  15. Mann Ace Member

    You must loathe George Soros, then, if you hate "billionaire bullies breaking economies."
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  16. Mann Ace Member

    Could you please explain the mechanism by which Putin can 'dominate energy markets" by getting rid of the EU. I'm curious what your reasoning is.
  17. Sekee Member

    The UK has its own oil fields and like Europe is getting its oil elsewhere due to sanctions. The Panama Papers show a lot of Russia’s mafia have their money in UK property, so stand to lose should the housing market collapse. Also:.

  18. fishypants Moderator

    One view (I don't think I agree - but it's interesting):

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  19. fishypants Moderator

    The EU imports vast amounts of energy from Russia:


    ^ Table 3: Main origin of primary energy imports, EU-28, 2003–13
    (% of extra EU-28 imports)

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  20. Sekee Member

    I think your information is a little out of date.

  21. JohnnyRUClear Member

    That's pretty well put. I tend to agree with that PoV. Agree or not, though, I vigorously welcome the new wave of reflection taking place. The upset over Brexit is prodding at least some people to think about things they clearly haven't before, and some of the articles are really substantive and well-written. Good can come of this.
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  22. fishypants Moderator

    Gas is not included in the sanctions at all - the EU chose to exclude it exactly because EU countries are so dependent on Russian gas.
    Source: "But the gas industry, space technology and nuclear energy are excluded from sanctions.
    Crude oil imports from Russia to the EU are up from 2014 to 2015, not down - that's on volume (number of barrels). On dollar value they're way down but that's because of falling oil prices globally, it's nothing to do with sanctions.

    Crude oil imports from Russian Federation to EU
    Year Volume (1000 bbl)
    2005 1305227.582
    2006 1281929.738
    2007 1285312.168
    2008 1210935.461
    2009 1102455.891
    2010 1117353.04
    2011 1081315.574
    2012 1187845.785
    2013 1145160.861
    2014 1055589.877
    2015 1127792.928

    (tab name 'Extra EU-origin-year', scroll down to 'Russian Federation')
  23. Random guy Member

    Quite, that was a well written and well argued piece. Like you, I'm not sure I agree to all of it, but I bet a lot of British leave voters do.

    The increasing poverty of British cities Sekee cited, and the increasing isolation of the upper strata of society probably account for why Remain lost and why they can't fathom how that was possible.

    Here's an interesting comment from Fortune related to the role of referendums relative to representative democracy and the Brexit vote:

    How a Second Brexit Referendum Would Kill the EU
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  24. fishypants Moderator

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  25. Random guy Member

  26. Sekee Member

    My bad.
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  27. Random guy Member

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  28. Mann Ace Member

    the second paragraph says
    The last paragraph says
    Everything in between was conflicting scholars and studies.
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  29. fishypants Moderator

    Yes. According to that page, the data seem thin. It's not clear whether or not there really has been a reduction in social mobility. If entry in the 'elite' is open to anyone - if it's meritocratic - then that's very different (in my mind at least) to plain old inherited privilege.

    Annabelle Williams in City AM blames quantitative easing...
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  30. Mann Ace Member

  31. Mann Ace Member

    One problem with QE is it has no theoretical reason behind it. It's a purely speculative idea. Money has a time value, and to erase that fact by fiat is not to going have a good ending.

    It is great for governments with large debts, since it makes it dirt cheap to service said debt. But it has not been shown to work, despite the years we've had it. I read that Obama is going to be the first president who doesn't get even one year of 3% growth. We've been stuck below that for 8 years. That's a lot of lost value gone forever.
  32. The Wrong Guy Member

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  33. Random guy Member

    I don't agree the left/right divide is irrelevant (actually, I believe a general slide towards the right is to blame for the underlying problem). Also, I'm sure the cast of cosmopolians is a meritocracy, I believ eit is inherited just as much as more traditional upper/middle/lover class.

    Compared to the main message of the article these are nitpicks though.
  34. Random guy Member

    Sky News: Nigel Farage Steps Down As Leader Of UKIP"

    My guess is he'll "miraculously" reappear as a Tory in the group that is to oversee the Brexit negotiations, complete with a shiny new political outlook that only happens to also benefit his civilian life as a stockbroker.
  35. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Initially, I construed the title of this thread as denigrating all who voted for Brexit. If it was meant that way, then I object. However, after seeing -- at least a little, via a handful of articles -- what has ensued in the UK following the vote, I realize that the title is reasonable if it's meant to describe the present condition of UK politics, and with respect to Brexit specifically.
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  36. The Internet Member

    That is a lot of words.

    If I thought me sick mum was going to get better care and my country would have more money to take care of its own if I voted "leave," then that is what I would do.

    I think we need to know what facts people relied upon before we can get all psychological about them.
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  37. The Internet Member


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