Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

The recap that follows is long, be warned.


[size=+1]Starting up:[/size] We kicked things off at the intersection nearby the org, where we accumulated honks and danced to bad music. After about an hour, when a bunch of people had gathered up, a few people split off to demonstrate in front of their building.




[size=+1]Background info on the ongoing legal scuffle:[/size] Chicago has a law in the books which prevents demonstrations within 150 ft. of a place of worship conducting services. As part of a shenanigan to stop free speech at their building, our Scientologists claim their building is a real church and essentially say they have nonstop "services" from sunup to sundown, every single day, to push protesters away. The police get caught in the middle of the debate over what constitutes a bona fide religious service, and it has caused no end of confusion and mixed instructions on where protesters are allowed to be.




[size=+1]First police visit:[/size] After the inevitable Scientologist whining about part of the group protesting in front of their building, the first policeman arrived on the scene. Someone else will have to set the details straight here - my impression is that he seemed to think everything was fine at first. (Lol church services on a Saturday?) Then it seemed like he got tied up talking to a bunch of the Scientologists and was having to hash out the issue with his higher-ups. Things seemed to tip the other way, and at one point he almost seemed to me like he was ready to boot everyone away. (I have no idea why the pendulum seemed to swing so far in the other direction.) More confusion followed...

...And then the policeman just... left. Without saying anything to us. We were like, uhh, whatever? Game on, apparently.




[size=+1]The plateau:[/size] There followed a period where not too much notable happened. Our anons at the intersection were still holding signs, chilling out, and eating candy. In front of the org, it was pretty dead. Their building seemed quiet all day, with the exception of the noon hour, when a bunch of staff were going out to get chow. I did see one woman, presumably from the Nation of Islam, getting a walkaround tour and the spiel from iPod Girl.

You could Domenic Cusano at the reception desk working the phones. He's a high-level OT, husband of Chicago DSA Rebecca Cusano, and has done stuff for OSA in the past (like try to stalk us at Millennium Park before getting trolled out).




[size=+1]Second police visit:[/size] Different officers arrived later in front of the org - our Scientologists never stop calling in complaints. This time it was a supervisor and some others. For the second month in a row, they reversed the green light that we'd received in the first round of police visits (lol at lack of consistency), and took a hard-line stance that all the protesters immediately had to move 150 feet away.

One anon, ready for this situation with legal preparations, wished to be cited for the 150 foot issue, in order that the law (or the interpretation of the way it should be enforced) could be challenged. Police seemed to hem and haw for a while about actually following through on enforcing it in this case - even other Chicago PD cops have seemed to think applying it Scientology's way is ridiculous - and then issued the citation to the anon. Domenic Cusano's name was listed as the person making the complaint.

Sometimes when we have the cops called on us, the Scientologists like to suddenly jump out and start taking pictures of us talking to the police. No doubt it makes good Scientology propaganda ("ooh look at the evil anons being brought to justice").




[size=+1]The finish:[/size] By then, the drama in front of the org was played out for the day, and the mission of taking the first steps in getting an official examination of the 150 foot law was accomplished. Everyone returned to one of the corners of the nearby intersection again, including the anon who was cited. A few people left, and some others hung around for a good while longer breaking it down to music and having fun. The horn love was good, and so were the cookies. Most likely, there will be anecdotes, photos, and video likely to follow in the next few days.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Hopefully a good legal precedent can be set.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Hope this really turns round and bites them hard in the ass. You guys (and the cops) have been dicked around long enough by the cult. It's just a pity that the cops can't get some consistency going amongst themselves and it had to come to making a temporary sacrifice just to set the law straight (not that the actual law itself needed straightening, just understood).

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

So the Anon has been cited. Does this mean he can challenge it in court now?

Good work btw.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Well done! Very impressed with your preparations. Hope the legal precedent backfires o them.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!



GO BIG SHOULDERS

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

this wasn't a bad protest.
got more femme in our mix of male.
the red sweater lady with other photo-takers seriously scared me.

anyone update me with photos and videos.
<3 kisses.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

I didn't remember seeing red sweater lady before. I told her I was supposed to be Harry Potter, as I had part of a Halloween costume on, and received kind of a strained smile. Her :| face became :]

Were there any other Scientologists taking photos of you too?

Offered Halloween candy to several of them, got no takers, haha.

Will look at making a video, but I haven't even started thinking about it yet, and it's probably many days off from being finished cuz I'm lazy.

Yes (if I'm not mistaken), that's the entire point - assuming the state's attorney even thinks it's worth bothering trying to prosecute, it will go to a judge. At least I hope I have those details right. I will STFU on the issue going forward, as I am not a legal person, am not sure what else I could be saying anyway, and want to give the person involved some degree of privacy and control over what info gets aired as this thing plays out.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Nice work Domenic. One tiny, but very intelligent act can make such a differnece. Good luck with that.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

"One anon, ready for this situation with legal preparations, wished to be cited for the 150 foot issue, in order that the law (or the interpretation of the way it should be enforced) could be challenged."

This sort of thing is long overdue.
It can/will put the cult on trial.
The state has the burden of proving that "religious services" occur all day every day. Good luck with that.
This could be VERY EPIC.
Cool brave wise anon is....well, just that.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

And, of course, no matter the decision (by the State Attorney, the Court, etc.) the cult will publicize the fact that a protester was cited...

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Scopes was convicted at trial.
His win on appeal is what is important to history.
(Plus the kick ass job Darrow did in what he knew was a short term lost cause.)

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

I have an administrative hearing set for December 8th. I am allowed to appeal any verdict I disagree with to the circuit court (i.e., real court). I'm not sure the administrative judge will be inclined to rely on constitutional issues to dismiss the citation, but I am confident once it moves over to the court system (if it does) either the judge or the state's attorney will realize what's up and throw the charge out. Of course, I'm looking to win the war on this and not just the battle and will press to establish a permanent resolution to this mess. If I have to, I'm all set to file a motion asking a federal court to permanently enjoin the city from enforcing the restriction. I have 100% confidence a federal court will do so if it comes to that based on existing case law.

Domenic is not required to show up for the hearing, but should he choose to do so it will provide me with additional opportunity to ask him why OTs are being forced to redo the Basics.

I'll keep you guys informed as to any and all developments in this matter. Free Sparrow.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Okay I'm assuming you were namefagged, so you will be on OSA's radar so make sure you review this http://forums.whyweprotest.net/24-f...f-you-have-been-fairgamed-received-c-d-24876/ . Fair game is still in practice in Co$. Here are some tips to securing your social network and employment.

1) Let your friends and family know whats going on and what to expect. C&D letters and calls are less intimidating when they are expected.
2) Make sure your boss/supervisor knows you've been protesting against the Church of Scientology abuses and their tendency to fair game their critics (which includes calling their place of work)
3) Expect P.I.s
4) Above all else, if you continue to protest after this, the fact you have a face to go with your message makes you more badass than a Chitown Anon already is.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Balls of steel.
You glorious bastard.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Side note for the other Chicago protesters reading this: there is a chance that, come November, we may be going back to our usual pattern of having the main monthly protest on the 2nd Saturday like we usually have in the past.

I can't say for sure whether or not this will happen, because I don't speak for the group, and they'll have have to work it out collectively. I just wanted to note the possibility here, because that would only be 3 weeks away, and I don't want the date to have a chance to sneak up on people. So if you were thinking about coming in November too, it might be a good idea to scope out the planning thread before too long. Also, you can add your input on any date debate there.

Now I'm going back to waiting for the good photographs to arrive.

I'm sure you're right. And they may have been high-fiving and slapping each other on the back after yesterday. But who cares? They may be concerned with appearances (e.g. huge but empty Ideal Orgs), but it's the final outcome of this that will end up mattering.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

[/QUOTE]

It sounds like someone lied to the police. The dumb asses list their hours for their so called services. Last time I checked it was a crime to lie to the police??? It is the only service they list.

Church of Scientology of Illinois

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

It sounds like someone lied to the police. The dumb asses list their hours for their so called services. Last time I checked it was a crime to lie to the police??? It is the only service they list.

Church of Scientology of Illinois[/QUOTE]
Oh, that shit is cash bro.

Church of Scientology of Illinois

Ya gotta challenge every fucking thing in every case.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

A printout of that has already been shown to our local police on several occasions, with mixed results. While it can carry weight, the Scientologists can simply claim that just because a Sunday service is listed doesn't mean there aren't other services offered there too. "You see, officer, Scientology is a very personal religion, and we have many types of unconventional practices. Churchgoers may spend time studying the teachings of founder L. Ron Hubbard or receive a type of spiritual counseling called auditing, blah blah blah..."

So it's not that simple.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Thus the need for a legal interpretation of "religious services", perhaps?

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

I have a possible explanation for why the 1st group of police were reluctant to make an arrest but the 2nd group were more willing. I believe this has to do with their work schedules which may be something like:

1st shift 7am-3pm
2nd shift 3pm-11pm
3rd shift 11pm-7am

The 1st shift officers don't want to deal with processing an arrest for a minor violation shortly before 3pm, because they want to go home like any employee. After 3pm, the 2nd shift officers are also reluctant to arrest peaceful protesters but will do so if it comes to that because they are just starting their work day and have plenty of time. Our brave Anon insisted to both groups that he was willing to be arrested to challenge 150' protest law in court.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

That's a very cynical take on things. Probably 100% true. Time of violation is recorded as 3:15 p.m.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Thank you for your resiliance. I hope that "curch services"thing can be debunked somehow. Great Show Sirs

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

They can claim anything they want but the burden of proof is on them to show that there was a service going on. With them posting the schedule it shifts the balance of doubt on to them. A common argument made in court is, would a reasonable person believe something. A reasonable person would believe that if someone post a schedule of events that is in fact their schedule of events. Protesters have no way of knowing how to avoid fantasy services but they can try to comply with the spirit of the law. What the cult has done has made protesting a crime to their whim and I don't believe a court will allow that.

The burden of proof still falls on the state or complainant depending on the type of case. I would like to know if when the police investigated this, did they see a service or did they just take the cults word?

Yes their schedule can hurt them in court because it is common knowledge that they don't have services 24 7 or from opening to close. They have made a false statement to the police and it is easily verifiable.

People are just to ready to say that there is no point because the cult will say this or that. They have said things in the past and present that have landed them in trouble.

For the record the Supreme Court has on many issues, including the 1st amendment stated that States can enforce and regulate community standards as so long as it dose not totally deprive a person of their constitutional rights. I am not so sure how this case would hold up on a constitutional basis. Maybe good or maybe not. As I said, I think there are good grounds to get it kicked out on the grounds that the cult posted their service time and that a reasonable person would expect it would be ok to protest outside of that time.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

I am sorry it is that simple. You have to make a statement of fact and it has to hold up in court. Could the cult have people purger themselves in court? Yes and they have done it before. They could say they were attending service when there was non but they risk a lot by doing so.

Did the police see a service going on? No? That means they investigated the matter a cited a person for a crime that they did not see and based on a complaint where the evidence (Posted Schedule) suggest that did not take place. The only evidence left is a direct eye witness testimony. If the defense lawyer is good that is where they will focus.

The police failed to get a schedule or see a crime themselves. As I said the only thing left is the level the cult will go to purger themselves.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Radio Paul is right. It will be interesting to see who shows up Dec. 8th. (I'll tell you right now, if Moxon shows up I'm paying the $500 fine and getting the heck out of there!) The complainant is Domenic, not a police officer (even though about six officers showed up and could plainly see me standing in front of the Org during the time the piece of paper they taped to their window said they were holding services). He does not have to appear in person as the admin judge can rely entirely on the notice to hold the hearing. If he does not show, I'll simply contest that any services were occurring. Without anyone there to attest to the fact services were going on and to offer evidence of same, presumably the admin judge will have no choice but to throw the notice out as it will simply be my word against Domenic's. If the issuing officer shows (and I doubt he will), he will be unable to attest to services as he never even bothered to go in the Org.

Regardless, I can't tell you guys how excited I am to FINALLY be able to make this argument to an actual attorney as opposed to a police officer. I look forward to the day when I am able to return in front of the Org and the Scilons' numerous calls to the police go unheeded.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

I would not be so quick to state what I would or would not do on this board. It can be used in court as it is not protected as attorney client privilege. I would say the only person you should be discussing this case with is your attorney. Also I don't believe Moxon is licensed to practice in that state but that is a moot point as he could not prosecute a criminal case. He is not a States Attorney or County Prosecutor but a privet practice lawyer. Again don't give the cult more credit then they are due. Moxon has lost more cases than he has won anyway.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

I am an Illinois licensed attorney. There's nothing I have or would post to this board that I am unwilling to admit to in a court of law. The Moxon comment was just a joke.

The case law is abundantly clear, and its on my side. Whether its Xenu's will or not, there will be a court order/decision affirming our right to protest in front of the Org issued in the coming months.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Fair enough

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Wait a minute. I just realized my legal analysis of this case fails to take into account the one thing my law professors never did (or could) prepare me for: the possibility of OT powers retroactively erasing the case law that supports my case.

Oops.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Respect.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

yee haw

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Yer doomed.
Doomed as doomed can be.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Moxon isn't going to show up for a 500 dollar fine. Chicago Scifags have their own lawyers, besides.

Also: If the legal system is not willing to revoke the law, consider an alternative compromise to offer.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

With all due respect.
No.
To explain:
The worst that can happen is status quo.
The best: cult on trial.
No lose situation.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Starting to work on editing the video, but it'll be a few days.

Here's a really bad photo of the red sweater lady who was snapping pictures of us:

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

She's drunk. She's all blurry.
BTW there's some kind of awesome scooter in front of her.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

I'm not sure I get your meaning. What context or situation are you referring to? I'm referring to challenging the 150 feet regulation.

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

Excellent advice 3rdMan.
Big cake to prepared anon, getting cult into court over their 'religious services' bullshit may indeed be a worthy venture, me curious to see where it goes *cue giant popcorn masheenz*

Quoting Anne> 'So very intersting!'

Re: Chicago POSTGAME - Oct. 23rd, 2010 - Legal drama!

What is taking Adanon so long in getting up those fabulous pictures he always takes? Come on dude!