Defense Fund For Activists

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by Andy Downs, Jun 2, 2013.


What Do You Think About Setting Up A Defense Fund For Hacktivists

Poll closed Jun 9, 2013.
Yes I would donate and help promote 0 vote(s) 0.0%
Not interested 4 vote(s) 100.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Andy Downs Member

    After thinking of this idea on another post I started, I think this issue should be considered by all.
    The current FBI/Law Enforcement model says that protesters who use DDOS are criminals.

    It is my opinion they are no different than other politically social movements who have had books written about them covering issues like a woman's right to vote, segregation, civil rights, etc.

    Fact: the law makers have allowed the activists that use computers to become classified as criminals. Those who are charged with the task of enforcing laws basically do what they are told and go after this new classification of "criminal" because they are easy targets, and it is easier to solve from their perspective. Its a great deal easier than finding out who send poison letters to Capital Hill.

    Plus there are more "perp walks" for the cameras and that shows the public they are "protecting them" from "evildoers"
    All the while we have activists facing long federal prison time being defended by well intentioned yet attorneys not up to the job of facing the full wrath of the US Attorney's office.

    Why does the US Attorney have to win these cases? If they do not they face having to dismantle the FBI current operations which will cost many government contractors money which is needed to re-elect law makers.

    All of this to say, if the Feds can't convict the kids they arrested, a lot of rich angry people will be pissed off. Not the least of which is going to be the FBI because you have to understand where there funds are justified. First, they have to have a bad guy people will unite behind. Considering how Anons have been portrayed in the Media, the general public who does not get the movement, does and will remain afraid of Anons.
    Second, once you have a juicy target, you make a plane. That plan needs money and support. Then you have a whole operation based on arresting people exercising their rights, and no one gets it because most of the population thinks about Honey BooBoo shows rather than what happens in their own country. All they hear is what FoxNews spews and that is the extent of their involvement.

    Simple fact is that if the Govt looses these cases the whole system has to change on their end. Too many do not want that.

    So how do you get a check on the uninformed law makers and those with guns and battering rams looking to charge into the next 18 year old bedroom with an AR-15 looking for a laptop?

    The court system is the only way to undo bad laws and bad law enforcement practices.

    The sentences these activists will get will be ridiculous
    . Why? the corporations that got embarrassed have the power to pick up the phone and call in favors to get these type actions in play.

    So back to how you handle what will be a problem for anyone with a brain, laptop and original thought?

    You battle the system in court.

    How do you do this successfully? Ever heard that the rich people buy justice? Its true. Why?

    Resources (money) buys you the law firms with the best "reputations" and with the most associates to fight these battles. They pump out preliminary hearing motions that take a lot of time to analyze and respond. This makes the Govt have to do more work. If they Govt does more work it comes out of their budgets. Never before in the history of our country is it a better time to beat the Govt in court with all the cut backs. They US Atty may get the money but rest assured it comes out of someone else's budget and that takes a toll.

    To win in court you have to have "top rated" lawyers that spend so much time in the Federal Courthouse the Judges know their work, reputation and abilities. After a while they tend to just believe those guys more than the other side.

    You can;t win in court unless you have these guys backing you up. And these guys are not cheap.

    Back to our brothers and sisters sitting in jail cells tonight. The have little money and are getting the most well intentioned attorneys they can get. But they are destined to loose because of it.

    I am proposing setting up a non-profit to help identify the right lawyers in the country (Anon Dream Teams) who can in an instant have a lawyer on site fighting from the beginning for not only the activists being targeted, but the movement that will be permanently be outlawed if these cases are lost.

    It has to be set up like when David Boise took on Big Tobacco. Someone like that who can get to anyone and get things done for the movement.

    I would like your thoughts. I know a few of these type operators from the businesses I have had.
    Think of it almost as a union benefit but without the union "officially"

    If everyone would use their abilities to help promote this idea no matter who you are, if the FBI busts your door down only to yell "Drop That Mouse Asshole" you will at least know you have an attorney that will be headed your way to help.

    I really think this part of being successful in the goals of making things legal that should be anyway, has been over looked.
    If these people go to jail the Govt has a legal position to keep doing it at a higher rate.
    I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas.
  2. Anonymous Member

    And who would have the account login and password?
  3. Andy Downs Member

    There are a lot of ways to structure that. One way would be a committee made up by Activists/Anons decide how any and all funds be distributed to the law firms. Protocols would have to be set up and rules to follow be agreed to by the committee. That committee would also take part in deciding which firms would be out there fighting.
    Here is where that gets interesting...Law firms who can handle this type of business can also be negotiated with for fees. They will compete with other firms to get the business. That advantage goes to the fund's committee.
  4. Anonymous Member

    Are you starting to see the problems as it gets more complicated? Having a central place to donate to activists sounds good, but then someone other than me will decide who gets my money. It's cheaper to donate to who you want to directly. It might be worthwhile to start a site with links to ongoing efforts so people can read and donate directly.
    This is the same reason I never give a extra $1 at check out at the grocery store for whatever they are collecting for that week. Someone else is deciding who gets my money and taking a cut for administering it
  5. An attorney is an interesting idea, but wouldn't that cost a lot (though I guess you could get a Pro Bono one, but IDK), also... that would mean someone would have to connect with them. It would mean there would need to be more structure and solidarity, right? If it's Human Rights/Civil rights issues, as you said, it seems there would be like a Civil Liberty Group or something which could defend... just saying. Like ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union)
  6. Andy Downs Member

    The legal reality is if you have one firm overseeing all cases, they will be more effective in the tactics being used by the feds. You also need all the information in one place for the legal teams to prepare for appeals cases.
    Look money is an unavoidable aspect of this. If you have all the money in one place, you get more buying power with the firms. Your money will take you further
    If a firm hears they may get 20k to defend someone,..they are not going to make that case a priority. If they see a of of cases like that, all of a sudden you are top priority.
    And that top priority is what you need for the whole thing to make a difference.
    Or you send a few bucks to some Public Defender type and the rest of the money will be needed to add money to these guys commissary accounts to stay safe in prison to pay for protection. If the firms are not placing your guys on the top shelf status, you have the power to pull their funding. They will not allow that to happen, they will perform.

    Its just like DDOS, there your is power in all types of numbers and volume working towards one cause....especially money in business. And though there is a cause to be met, you have to handle it like business. Then you win. Then you change how the system works

    Congress is not going to make this stuff legal because its the right thing to do. That leaves the court. That simply costs money.
    I'll bet high profile people would help out on donating once the right attention is brought to the public domain.

    It is that course or set up protests at the court houses that will only enrage the prosecutors and assure convictions for no other reason but spite...and decent people will go to jail for bad laws.

    I don't have a dog in this fight...but I have been around and see how things work and have contacts that could help. I believe in what they did and think its a shame to have them go down when the right effort could keep them from doing that.
  7. Anonymous Member

    Except DDOS is illegal.
  8. Andy Downs Member

    I have been shocked that the ACLU has not made this a national priority. For some reason they are staying out of this. I imagine there is a reason, but who knows.

    Look you also get what you pay for in life.
    A lot of money would need to be cover all these cases and the ones to come. You have allies who believe in what you all do that have money. If you organize and start selling t-shirts, stickers, etc or anything you can think of in the numbers you all have, you should be able to make this happen. Plus anyone else caught up in this BS will know someone is on their side in court.
    Once that process starts, you bring the press in like Democracy TV, other celeb types and you will be able to meet the goals/

    If a different law firm has to start from scratch for each defendant, they will be working based on their own knowledge. They will not have been able to see the tricks used in the past by the Feds. Having all that under one roof helps make the fight more effective.When a lawyer has never seen one of these cases before, it hurts your chances. If one firm does all the work, they will know what to do quicker and be able to attack first in some cases. It is the best chance to help those in trouble and change the laws via the court

    It will take a lot of money, and it is the best chance everyone has. Once you start if done right, you will find all types of allies who have big money to donate. Then the Govt will have to think about how much each case will cost them and their resources. It will have a chilling effect on them if you all became that organized on a legal front
  9. Andy Downs Member

    Then why are hackers looking at hard prison is not legal until the court affirms the case in their favor.
  10. Andy Downs Member

    The DDOS laws have not been tried on the appeal level or Supreme Court....that is where this whole thing has to go to change the case law. It is a way of getting a law fixed that Congress will not.
    If these cases are not adjudicated on the high courts, no change will ever take place.
  11. Andy Downs Member

    It's that or we all get on Twitter and get everyone to Tweet messages of support for those in jail. But that won't get the out and it won't change the system
  12. Andy Downs Member

    Another way to raise the money is to start association where everyone pay dues, and do fund raising on top of that. Then you have numbers and in numbers there is safety and all know that
  13. Anonymous Member

    anonymous chanology.jpg

    Whyweprotest regulars are "chanologists" mostly, a tiny part of the Anonymous world. Some of them are interested in public protest generally, particularly how to protest when speaking out is personally dangerous. Scrupulously obeying the law has been important to success, so most here have no sympathy for anyone involved in DDOS or hacking or stuff like that.

    Chanology has a colorful fundraising history. People have set up Paypal accounts for server operating expenses or for someone's legal defense, only to then see the recipient of their generosity disappear from view. Consequently, any worthy cause with a plea for donations will face skepticism until it has been proven not to be a trap.

    The guy running this web site has built a trustworthy reputation by not having any security breaches under his watch. He's pissed off some people but that seems minor in light of the stable web site he's managed to maintain for several years. Donating to pay monthly operating expenses here is legit, basically.

    The guys picked up for DDOS got a year and a day in Club Fed, I think. They're probably out now, but I haven't been following the FBI-DDOS story closely.

    Barrett Brown's story is more important that the DDOS story. BB is an investigative journalist, albeit not a polished one, who had been researching companies contracting with the Federal government to spy on people like us. It doesn't take much imagination to see how outsourcing FBI and CIA intelligence work to a network of private companies in this emerging digital era could all go horribly wrong. You will have been downloading child pornography over several years, for example, and you wouldn't even know it.

    Your mother did the right thing taking the FBI to court. But right now I don't want to fight the FBI. I want to win them over to my way of thinking. Not sure how do to that yet though.
    • Like Like x 4
  14. Quentinanon Member

    Would you call it the International Association of Chanologists?
    We're the IAC. We're the IAC. We're the IAC. We're the IAC!

  15. Anonymous Member

    My 2cents, I will leave my personal opinion on using DDOS as form of protest in the middle.

    Raising funds to plummet them into legal cases is fighting a symptom of what you perceive to be a wrongful law. Instead of running after the facts so to speak and on top of that do so in a manner that is incredibly expensive: it might be worth considering to find / create a lawyer association that will take on alleged DDOS perps cases pro bono, with as goal not to protect these individuals from any repercussions and an easy way out. Much rather oriented towards changing said laws. This means you will need to find individuals that won't take plea bargains as an "easy way out".

    A good starting point would be law universities, tech lawyers and possibly pursuing education in law yourself.

    There is no quick fix, activism most of the time should be seen as a vocation and can take a life time to pay off.
  16. Andy Downs Member

    Neither one of you have said anything I disagree with. These things get ugly. I know this first hand.
    It just comes down to someone saying, this should change and then having the courage to never quit. Whoever does it, if they do will have a hard time.

    In addition to the Universities there is something called the 1st Amendment Center here in Nashville. It is run by a friend of mine named John Seigenthaler. He was on Bobby Kennedy's staff and went on to run USA Today and Gannet. He is a living legend for taking on civil rights and 1st Amendment issues. This might be something they would get on board with.

    But I am not in a position to make that decision. All I could do is if someone contacted me from the people in jail or under indictment I could make connections. I have no idea what would happen, but I would do everything I could do to make it happen.

    I really think that if the right case was brought DDOS would be found a legit form of protest. I know that type of ruing came down in Germany, not sure if it was overturned or not there. Once that took place under the US system, it would be a game changer.
  17. Anonymous Member

    From the fight with the cult of Scientology, it has been learned that having a large, centralized fund is painting a very big target for whatever adversary one might have. If the cult can target a money reserve, then so can the FBI or Monsanto or any other powerful potential adversary you can think of. Decentralized finance like setting up a pay-pal account for a specific case and get the word around is a bit cumbersome, likely brings in less dosh and gives less security to anyone actually needing the money. However, its unpredictability at the same time makes it very difficult to raid or tie up by legal action once needed.

    Large available legal fund with the kind of enemies OP is thinking of = not so good idea.
  18. Andy Downs Member
    Today's Supreme Court ruling in collecting DNA shows how a law is not a law until testing in court.
    I disagree that a fund would not help those arrested for these activities. If set up correctly, its not as big of an issue as you think.
    However, I don;t have a dog in the hunt. Its an idea I think worth exploring in more depth.

    I know this, that if these arrests go unchallenged, it is going to get far worse than it is now. The right to protest is a basic right to protest is being chipped away on all levels. Occupy, Anons, etc are not the only ones at risk.

    I would consider this....if you were the one arrested facing 10 years or more for basically protesting...would you feel good that your fellow activists kinda of forget that you exist? The reasons for not doing this are the reasons the Feds want to scare people from doing it.
  19. Anonymous Member

    I've yet to see one of these "activists" face ten years, they all plea and get off with a slap on the wrist, meanwhile a few "journalists" line their pockets. Please nigger, if you want to be an activist do something more constructive than shouting "lulz we 12 years old and we ddos the cause du jour - epic win!!1!".

    For real, if you want to change the law, go for it there's plenty of venues to do it.
  20. Anonymous Member

    Once DDOS becomes a legal form of protest, the tea baggers will DDOS their perceived enemies. Then the liberals will DDOS back at them. Then the telecoms and the uber rich will throttle all that DDOS traffic as they please. And then it will be hard to find sites you want to read.
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Andy Downs Member

    Decent and fair point on the repercussions of DDOS. May not be a clear answer on anything. No good deed goes unpunished. I just think it is a dangerous overall step in the law....but I am not a hacker or claim to be an Anon or anything else. Just my opinion
  22. jensting Member

    Thanks for sharing
  23. Anonymous Member

    Arp Cola, did you warn us about Scientology Rap? And, was four and a half minutes really necessary to get that message across?
  24. Anonymous Member
  25. Andy Downs Member

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