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Derail of Steve "Thoughtful" Hall Calls Out Marty re: TonyO

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Anonymous, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Optimistically, one can hope that Rathbun is changing; realistically, there are several books about to appear, and Rathbun's supposed changes may be anticipating those books, and may be a tactical maneuver to maintain credibility for himself and "Independent Scientology." He does seem to have influenced Tony Ortega in ways that are making Ortega look kind of foolish at times. It's hard to say definitively.
  2. Anonymous Member

    Because you're speculating. I could as easily speculate that Tony plays along in order to maintain a good source.
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  3. YouSeeNothing Member

    Since you're speculating, I like to pretend Marty wears a pink tutu and is actually working covertly to pull members from the cult, deprogramming them and making them into productive, healthy members of society. :)
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  4. Anonymous Member

    I hope so, and I hope that's also true for Mark Bunker.

    If Mark Bunker releases his documentary and gives his seal of approval to "Independent" and "Free Zone" Scientology, he will have been duped. That would be awful, but a "win" for the Scientologists.
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  5. Anonymous Member

    Tony Ortega just featured a story about someone who left the Organization, and then was briefly an "Independent Scientologist," and now has moved on to being an EX Scientologist.

    That's the way it is for most.

    Most people do not remain "Independent Scientologists" for long. It's a temporary phase.

    I'd be surprised - and disappointed - if Mark Bunker doesn't realize that, and treats the "Independent Scientologists" in his documentary as though they are permanent "Independent Scientologists."

    Mark Bunker, being led down the path of endorsing Scientology, by endorsing Scientologists fighting Scientology would be a classic example of Scientological "pan determinism" and manipulation.

    Let's hope it doesn't happen.
  6. Anonymous Member

    Yes, Tony Ortega seems to be a bit blinded by Marty’s brand of kool-Aid. I wonder if Marty will end up auditing him.
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  7. Anonymous Member

    a good source?? You must be in jest!
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  8. wolfbane Member

    I disagree he seems blinded. Tolerant - yes. Blinded... no. Although his tolerance can be annoying at times, the fact is he has to occasionally wrestle out the worthwhile nuggets of Marty's information and get his hands dirty while doing so. I can't even imagine doing that myself, so I write off the annoyance as being a dirty job that somebody has to do. And I'd rather see Ortega doing that dirty job than some newb journalist that doesn't fully understand what Marty's background is.

    FWIW my reasoning for seeing it that way is this: Marty expressed several times under oath in the Dander deposition his disdain for how TonyO interprets things and also mentioned more than once he doesn't read what Tony writes. That speaks volumes imo, and as long a Ortega pisses Rathbun off to the extent that Marty doesn't read Tony's blog - that tells me he's doing his job of being journalist who reports on Scientology in a well rounded manner quite well.

    When Marty begins to sing praises for Ortega unconditionally, then I'll start to worry he has been blinded by the Indy kool aid and not just playing a source for all he's worth.

    That said - I do hope VERY MUCH that TonyO lets Marty audit him someday! The lulz in Ortega's take after getting on the cans will surely be epic. It makes me giggle just thinking about it.
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  9. Anonymous Member

    Don't be too cocky. You may get what you wished for.

    40 years ago Paulette Cooper wrote to St. Hill (Scientology) asking a series of questions. One was about the "Billion year contract." Cooper was answered that the Sea Org Billion year contract was a humorous allegory. Cooper knew she was being B.S.ed by someone who wanted to change the subject.

    Recently, Marty Rathbun fed Tony Ortega the whopper that the Xenu incident of 75 million years ago was a "metaphor," and, apparently, Ortega bought it. He even thinks it's a sign of progress, and that it's like Christians not taking the Bible literally - when, if Ortega were not so naive - he'd realize that he's being B.Sed.

    That's a bad sign.

    Thumbing his nose at Scientology doesn't necessarily keep a person from being deceived by it.
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  10. wolfbane Member

    He bought it? Really??

    http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/07/scientology_xenu_whole_track.php

    http://tonyortega.org/2012/11/13/lay-off-xenu-an-ex-scientologists-plea/

    Sorry, but I think not. This criticism from the second link above of someone who tried to blow off the Xenu story shows he clearly sees it differently:
    Just because Ortega doesn't hate on Marty doesn't mean he is unduly influenced by him. Like I said, I find his tendency to give Marty a fair shake once in awhile annoying sometimes (but not always). However, I've got to acknowledge that when he does give Marty a fair shake it is always done on a story where Marty *seemingly* has something relevant to add to it. (TomKat divorce predictions was the exception to that norm imo but hey we all have an off day.)

    I look at it this way: If TonyO didn't piss off us Anons every once in while, he wouldn't be doing his job of marching down the middle of the road between multiple camps to the best of his abilities. So it's to be expected we won't always agree with everything he says.

    Just my two pennies worth though, YMMV.
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  11. Anonymous Member

    When Rathbun told Ortega that OT 3's "Incident 2" is a "metaphor," he was B.Sing Ortega. Rather than see it as an attempt to mislead, Ortega thought it was a sign of progress that Rathbun now thinks "Incident 2" is a "metaphor." Any one who is familiar with OT 3's "Incident 2" knows that incidents in the "reactive mind" on the "time track" are completely literal. That's one contant in Scientology since 1950. Rathbun knows this too.

    Rathbun is lying to Ortega, and Ortega doesn't see it.
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  12. YouSeeNothing Member

    Trying to remember where this was posted. Any links?

    Found it:
    http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/07/scientology_marty_rathbun_manifesto.php
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  13. wolfbane Member

    I'm not so sure Marty knows Incident 2 story of Xenu only makes sense when taken as completely literal, but it appears to me that Ortega gets it.

    That said, in attempt to get this derail back on track - is there any other Indy blogs where they repeat Marty's metaphor claim? That was a pretty significant change of tune for Marty to make, but I don't recall anybody else picking it up and running with it. And if not - could it possibly be that was the initial ARC break that lead to some of the bickering we are beginning to see trickle out of the Indy camp?
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  14. Anonymous Member

    Scientology has been dismissing (to non-Scientologists) anything strange or embarrassing in Scientology as allegory, or metaphor or, as far back as 1952, "fantasy."

    "Tell them your criticism (of Scientology's 'whole track') is very just. It's only fantasy," Hubbard instructed Scientologists to say to non-Scientologists in 1952, in the book 'What to Audit', later called 'History of Man'.

    "This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last sixty trillion years." Hubbard, 1952.

    1) Wog criticizes or ridicules.

    2) Scientologist responds: "It's only fantasy," and changes subject.

    Marty knows the basics of auditing. Incidents must be "perfectly duplicated" to be "as-ised" (to vanish).

    One can chuck OT 3 as garbage, but if one "runs" it, then it must be run literally. Marty knows this very well.

    Ortega thinks Marty is enlightened because he's saying (falsely) that he believes it's a metaphor.

    The first person to use the OT 3 metaphor gimmick was J. Gordon Melton, a "religious expert" who was hired by Scientology to be an "expert" witness at trials, and to write misleading "expert" information in Scientology "Dead Agent packs." This was about 1o or 15 years ago. He also wrote a book for Scientology.

    For years the metaphor gimmick has been used by some Freezone PRs when handling non-Scientologists.

    It's supposed to change the subject and take attention off the embarrassing "Xenu PR problem."

    Those who are close to Marty know his "mission" is mainly to "handle wogs," especially VIP wogs such as Ortega.

    But there's always been unease between average Scientologists and the more sophisticated PR types who "handle wogs."

    The point is: If either Ortega or Bunker are used by Scientology to assist Scientology in any way, it would be unfortunate.

    This information is provided to, hopefully prevent that.
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  15. wolfbane Member

    Dox or GTFO. You failed to back up the original point that "Tony Ortega seems to be a bit blinded by Marty’s brand of kool-Aid" and Ortega's own words in the links I posted on how he sees the Xenu story proved the metaphor point wrong in three different places.

    So now that you suddenly have ability to know what he thinks? Cool story bro. Why don't you tell us what Bunker had for breakfast while your at it, cuz you know - him and Marty might just eat that same thing for breakfast and that would surely prove he will end up helping Scientology in the end because why? Oh right... magical thinking where you read peoples minds + waffles = more waffles.
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  16. Anonymous Member

    Anyone who reads Ortega's blog will know of what I'm referencing. Do your own homework.

    Ortega has stated that he's pleased that Rathbun is saying that the Xenu/implanting saga of 75 million years ago is a "metaphor." He has expressed the view that that is progress.

    In truth, he's being lied to by Rathbun, who is feeding him an old line about anything crazy-sounding being an allegory or a metaphor.

    And I never wrote that "Ortega seems to be a bit blinded by Marty's brand of Kool Aid." That was another poster.
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  17. TO is already been handled...
    in one of ours facebook conversations,he forbidden me to use my signature ,on his blog, which is BIG HELLO FROM LRHs BULGRAVIA.
    because it is boring....
    wtf
    is that a real reason.....
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  18. pooks Member

    My 2 Cents-- You're wrong Bro. Yes, Tony is being lied to by Marty but don't think for a minute that Tony is buying his bullshit. Tony is a very fair, accurate and smart guy. He's nobody's fool. I know Tony personally. He's been to my home for visits. We've talked, I've read his stuff, and you are reading into things that just aren't there. Sort of like the anons that think that Marty and Mike are actually running an OSA op for the cult. Seeing things that don't exist.
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  19. Anonymous Member

    Ortega is buying some of Rathbun's bullshit.

    And even praising him for some of it.

    How in the world is that a good thing?
  20. Anonymous Member

    Keeping Marty talking.
    What he reveals,truth or lie is valuable.
    In time his spin will catch up with him.
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  21. Random guy Member

    Dox plox?
  22. pooks Member

    No, he's not buying it. He's reporting it. And for me it's OK to praise Marty when he does something
    that helps expose the cult. Sure, Marty is still a koolaid drinking Scio retard, but he's he's making an effort to expose some of it. Just exactly how many exes from the very top of the organization are speaking out? NOT many. Marty and Mike at least have some balls. Most of the others, like Debbie Cook, took the money and ran. So praise for Marty for standing up and telling the cult to shove the money up their ass is just fine with me.

    PS: It just occurred to me, if we could bring back the thunderdome of 2008-2010 and stick Marty and Mike in there for a month, we could probably make them human again.
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  23. wolfbane Member

    I do do my homework, extensively. And I occasionally disagree with small bits and pieces of what Ortega cranks out, but it's a tiny percentage of what his output is overall so NBD in the long run. But I have never seen any evidence of what you are claiming in any way whatsoever. Thus I would very much like to see an actual reference that supports that claim with specific examples pointed out because I honestly don't think it exists.

    Now granted, I do my homework so well I have seen the same allegations elsewhere. Over on ESMB to be exact, where the goofy exes who are still damaged from their years in the cult and wax philosophically in the same vein of black-and-white cultic mindset thinking where they believe that everybody is either with them or against them.

    The ESMB backup for this argument is lemmings lining up to agree with other people who preach their opinions like its truth, and once they get enough people in a group agreeing with the same bullshit they assume it is true. So yes, they buy into the same bullshit you spew that boils down to one thing: Ortega doesn't hate Marty to the same extent they do, so they make the same irrational assumption that Ortega is therefore under Marty's spell.

    So if you want prove your extrapolated opinion is a valid argument - dox plox. Let everybody look at what you feel is evidence and decide for themselves. If you can't provide evidence, then your argument is invalid by default and all you have is tinfoil theory.

    You replied to my reply on that argument, how was I to know. I don't have your magical thinking power of knowing what people think. Plus in case you didn't notice, I was busy checking my facts and posting links with quotes to meet the Dox or GTFO standard of countering this foolhardy extrapolated-out-of-thin-air argument with something other than tinfoil opinion.

    It already is. The dissension in the ranks in the 500+ lulzapoolza comment thread to Marty's judgement post that was being discussed ITT before the marty-hater bawl derail started shows that. As does Ortega's recent post on Simi Valley defecting from the Indy ranks in less than a year. And Simi is not alone, Lori Hodgson was the first Marty defector to turn ex we heard about over a year ago, it has also recently been revealed that Tiziano Lugli and his wife are also both indies turned exes, plus we've even had a Texan poster comment ITT they are also an ex-xhurchie turned ex-marty-lover turned anon.

    So the spin is wearing thin. And just like with the hot air PR campaigns the official church spins, the footbullets always get more prevalent as time goes on. Marty is no exception, his footbullets are beginning to show as well. (Eg: Dandar depo and Sappell article) The real question is, will he be able to handle the fallout flaps without going OSA-attack-mode crazy like organized Scientology does over mass defections.

    My take on the Steve Hall call out is that maybe Marty can pull the flap handling off with some of his flock... Marty convinced Steve to buy/read a psych book he pushes with the justification that Steve will better understand the new buzzwords Marty is using once he reads it. IOW, he spiked the kool aid with fresh juice and Steve was seemingly satisfied with that answer. I was disappoint to say the least.
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  24. Anonymous Member

    Cult followers are of a distinctive mental type: anti-scientific, in that they are always looking for ways in which life and living conform to their worldview, rather than trying to learn from their surroundings.

    Hubbard actually makes a good point about this in the Study Tapes, in which he brings up the idea that you can't teach someone on a subject about which they think they already know everything. Since the Scientologist has been gulled into believing that Scientology has the answers for everything, the only thing they can be taught is Scientology.

    Ingenious, really, if you want to form a cult.
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  25. Anonymous Member

    Marty could be re-booting his movement for 2013 and the arrival of a bunch of new books.

    The concern about the metaphor thing is valid. I was embarrassed to read what Tony Ortega wrote about it a few weeks ago in his blog.

    If you have no experience with Scientology's so called upper levels you probably will have a difficult time understanding what horse shit saying "It's a metaphor" is.

    I'm inclined to hope that Marty is sincerely changing for the better. He's been out for almost nine years. He should be changing. But if he is changing, then he'll have to revisit all the places where he dropped blobs of horse shit and clean it up, and explain that - then - he was still playing an oily dishonest game of making Hubbard "acceptable," yadda yadda yadda, but now he's changed.

    I look forward to seeing a changed - for the better - Marty. But he must clean up his old shit piles, if he wants to be taken seriously.
  26. wolfbane Member

    Link? My searching in Ortega's blog is not coming up with anything recently posted regarding the metaphor thing since he left VV so your "few weeks ago" is suspect imo.

    In fact - the word "metaphor" appears on The Underground Bunker blog that was launched on September 28, 2012 exactly once in a context that does NOT support the claims Ortega is buying it: http://tonyortega.org/?s=metaphor&submit.x=0&submit.y=0
    ^^Ortega is strictly reporting on what Marty says in an unbiased way as a means of providing the necessary background for the topic du jour, and is no way no how no where in that post saying he buys it / agrees with it nor indicate he sees Marty as enlightened because of it.

    This is the EXACT same post that started the ESMB thread that was waxing on Ortega for the "if he is not with us in hating everything Marty says he must be under Marty's spell" according to opinions espoused by "Veda" with no dox whatsoever that is here: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?29555-Past-Lives-Survey-from-Marty

    So unless you meant to say a few months ago instead of a few weeks ago, your claim is unsupported and your point *seems* to be invalid without dox to back it up.

    I already addressed that - I have no problem seeing it as horseshit, and I agree it is horseshit plus I specifically quoted the original remark from Ortega in JULY 2012 where he said the metaphor theory doesn't hold up. See post #115.

    My only problem is the BOGUS claims that Ortega bought into the metaphor claim and sees Marty as enlightened because of tit. If you can find something after his remarks in July that contradicts what he originally said, I would like to see it plox. Otherwise, LOL - enjoy your ESMB-flavored tinfoil kool aid and thank you for playing the I-have-no-dox just a cool story bro game. :cool:
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  27. Anonymous Member

    Thanks for finding the quote.

    Scientology has been BSing non-Scientologists by telling them things are "allegories," and "metaphors," and "fantasy" for 60 years.

    Marty is continuing that.

    It's not a good sign.

    That Tony doesn't see that is also not encouraging.

    I'm hoping that Marty will change and stop doing that.

    It's dishonest.

    I'm hoping, also, that Tony will become aware that he's being BSed.
  28. Anonymous Member

    Give TonyO some credit. He is a reporter and editor. His job is not to be convinced of anything.
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  29. Anonymous Member

    Dox pls. Or the only other conclusion for me is that you are shit disturbing. Maybe that is your real goal.
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  30. Anonymous Member

    http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/07/scientology_marty_rathbun_manifesto.php
  31. wolfbane Member

    Agreed, but he won't change it, it is his a key part of his platform.

    I still stand by the dox/links/quotes I have posted that there is absolutely nothing that indicates he is buying the bs. And Marty's disdain for what Ortega writes that was expressed in the Dandar depo dox seemingly indicates the exact opposite - it seems far more likely that it pisses Marty off that Ortega does not buy his BS because Tony does not carry forth Marty's PR context blindly and does not quote him verbatim.

    Ref: http://www.scribd.com/doc/113583057/Marty-Rathbun-Deposition-Dandar-lawsuit

    rathbun on ortega.jpg

    YMMV and if does, dox plox. I keep calling for DOX or GTFO but so far - I'm the only one posting dox that all indicate Ortega does not buy Marty's bs, he merely reports on it.
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  32. Random guy Member

    Still no dox I see.
  33. Anonymous Member

    I give Tony O. a lot a credit. I think he's great. But if he's buying a sack a horse shit, and doesn't know it's a sack of horse shit, what should people do? Say nothing?
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  34. Anonymous Member

    IMO, Ortega does not want to alienate Rathbun as a source, so does not explicitly fall on either side of the debate.
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  35. Anonymous Member

    Still no dox?
  36. wolfbane Member

    They should post dox that shows he's buying a sack of horseshit and eliminate that big gigantic if

    OR, follow the golden rule: Dox or GTFO - when the first part does not apply the second part tells you exactly what you need to do. It is that simple.
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  37. Anonymous Member

    Ortega needs to be safe for all kinds of people to talk to, particularly recent escapees from the cult, therefore his apparently neutrality.

    Should it really be necessary to explain this?
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  38. Anonymous Member

    There is no evidence that he is buying it. Stop making that assertion as fact until you can prove it.
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  39. Anonymous Member

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  40. Anonymous Member

    Dude, the link about "metaphors" is several posts above.

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