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Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Kha Khan, Jun 20, 2010.

  1. Kha Khan Member

    Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    You know what? I tried to do a "TL;DR" version, and highlight the important parts in bold, but couldn't. It is all important. If you don't have the attention span to read a long post, move along. If you do, then please read the entire thing.

    From Marty: Keepin’ it real on Fathers Day:
    See also David Miscavige's secret Alcatraz

    ESMB thread: Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    /
  2. Anonwithhold Member

    Re: Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    This article proves again that the "Church" (spit, because it is not a Chruch)
    practices disconnection and states that it does not.
    Lies, lies, and more lies.
    David Miscavige is a liar, and so Tommy Davis.
  3. anonakatie Member

    Re: Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    I read the comments in reaction to this on Marty's blog.

    I was quite suprised to see Chuck Beatty fawning over Marty. I think very highly of Chuck and and his basic common sense and calling it as he sees it.

    He also refers to Chris Guider very favorably.

    Maybe I'm through the looking glass, but this guy was an enforcer for DM and the RPF. When Maureen Bolstad was trying to escape it was this jackass who sat on her and restrained her from getting away.

    His wife went through hell. He helped put other people through a similar hell.

    Because you walked out the door yesterday doesn't make you any less guilty of participating in a kidnapping.

    Don't let me anywhere near this guy or I will spit in his general direction. And that's from me; I'm the "nice" one.
  4. Kha Khan Member

    Re: Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    I completely understand and do not want to even attempt to change your mind. However, I think some Exes may have a somewhat different perspective on this. That may be because the issue goes far, far beyond Marty. It concerns many Exes, or at least many Exes who were in the Sea Org, and particularly those Exes who were in "management." The problem is that many, if not all, if not even most, were guilty of something. While all were victims, many were victimizers.

    There was recently a post on ESMB bringing up some bad past behavior of Lisa Hamilton, who recently left the COS. I responded to that post as follows:
    Now, I'm not suggesting everything should be immediately forgotten, tht there should be no contrition, no amends. Not at all. What I am suggesting is that the Anonymous mantra of "We do not forgive, we do not forget" may not, as a practical matter, be the most effective way of getting people out of the COS (assuming, of course, that one wants to accomplish that goal). If people in the COS accurately understand that there will be absolutely no forgiveness if they leave the COS, then they will be less likely to leave to COS. I also suspect that Chuck, having been there, is more likely to understand how and why people in the COS did things they otherwise would not have done. (Think of the Milgram experiment.)

    Again, this is not to excuse Marty's past behavior. (For me it is not about Marty.) And it is not to say there should be no contrition, amends, or, in Scientology terms, "confronting" of one's past conduct and behavior. Contrition, amends, and such "confronting" are, IMHO, all necessary. But also necessary is some possibility of forgiveness and moving on.

    Finally, this is an issue that arises in far, far more important contexts whenever there is a just revolution of triumph over evil. Think of the truth and conciliation proceedings in South Africa. Amnesty for dictators in Latin America. The reluctance to investigate and expose all former Stassi informers in former East Germany. At some point people say, if we pursue perfect justice, if we make the best the enemy of the good, we may not prevail at all, and/or there will be no end.

    I know -- not consistent with the Anon ethos -- but I think the above may be what is motivating some people re: Marty.

    /
  5. anonakatie Member

    Re: Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    Here's a quote on Chris from OCMB BTs2free:

    Chris Guider was IG MAA RTC at the Int Base for about 5 years or so (I'd say from 1990-'95). IG MAA was a post created by Vicky Aznaran and later re-established by DM to police the Int Base from an RTC standpoint. IG MAA's role is to ensure that DM's orders at the base are fully complied to and if not, to enforce the Director's of Inspections and Reports at each of the base orgs to apply ethics gradients on the individuals around the base non-complying to DM's orders. ...
    Chris Guider really enforced this program and boy did he enjoy the power. Guider got a kick out of this power that he had...As IG MAA, he reported directly to DM and took his orders from him direct...
    I personally saw Chris Guider hold a person against a wall that wanted to leave the Sea Org and the base. He was there another time when 5 security guards were physically holding Bruce Bromley (once Senior C/S Int) in a room while he was fighting and screaming for them to let go of him because he wanted to leave. Guider was ordering them to do it. And I saw Guider stop Bruce another time when he was trying to leave. Bruce was held against his will at the Ranch (Happy Valley) for nearly 6 months or more before he was alowed to leave. Marty Rathbun was his sec checker. Despite Bruce being held against his will for months, he was made to do heavy labor, like digging ditches and literally chopping wood! Bruce at times would refuse to do any work at all and would go into his room and read sci-fi and Jason Bourne novels. Good for him. But Chris Guider didn't like this at all and would show up to tell Bruce to "get your ethics in Bruce and get to work."
  6. anonakatie Member

    Re: Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    Hey Kha Khan,

    Look, I don't hate Marty, I actually see a utility of what he is doing.
    I understand everything you are saying.

    But there is a big difference between someone who is a bitchy asshat and a kidnapper. Or someone who commits and covers up crimes like Marty.

    That said, I might even welcome that person with open arms if the person renounced what he had previously done and tried to make amends.

    I don't see that happening with Marty. His "apology" was severely limited and did nothing to bring about any justice. If he has gone to the authorities, we haven't seen that yet.

    I hope that Guider will talk.

    I truly do understand what you are saying. Just being in the audience as Maureen told her story makes it very hard for me to forgive the man who helped hold her prisoner.
  7. Kha Khan Member

    Re: Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    Interesting. I suspect we are going to see more of this as high level people leave the official COS.

    A couple of observations. First, the above of course has nothing to do with Valeska Guider.

    But it does present the issue of how to treat, react to, etc. other high level people who leave the COS. I don't know how to answer that question broadly; everyone will have to make their own decisions. I will note, however, that as a practical matter posts such as the one quoted above make it much more likely that Chris Guider (and his wife, Valeska) will go directly to, and stay only within, the Independent Scientology movement and Marty's blog with censored comments. [I've already seen people react on Marty's blog to comments about Marty's past conduct with the Scientology mantra, "Move up to present time!" I broadly responded with the Scientology "tech" that one cannot deal with the past unless and until one confronts the past.] Chris and his wife will not even venture to the "hug box" known as ESMB if they know that Chris will be textually dismembered over his past conduct. Some may say, "who cares if his is? Tough." It may matter if one cares one way or the other about empowering either Marty of the Independent Scientology movement.

    It may be that Marty's blog is a place where MAD (mutual assured destruction) applies. People won't call out others on their past bad behavior because they know that if they do their own past bad behavior will be brought up.

    /
  8. anonakatie Member

    Re: Disconnection story of Valeska Guider

    KK,

    I am probably in the lead of people here who actually would want to make it more amenable for people just getting out to go to ESMB and here.

    I do understand what you are saying. I want to make it easier for people to get past the transitional period and not to get stuck in the unreality that some are playing in over at Marty's blog.

    I don't want to take this guy apart, but I do want him to at least apologize for the things he has done. And I don't want him to get the complete pass that he presently seems to be getting on Marty's blog.

    It's disingenuous. Oh, Lurie Belotti is bad because she is still in. But Chris Guider is not because he is out. No, they both did the same things, as far as abusing people.

    To me it's a simple thing-"I regret any harm I may have done to anyone, and I will do my best to see that I make amends by talking".

    BTW I posted my response here and not on ESMB. I rather doubt that Guider is going to show up here. But if he does, I am perfectly willing to hear what he has to say.

    Also not meaning to take away from his wife's story, which is a truly harrowing one. Just found it rather ironic that having gone through all that she married someone who helped do it to others.

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