Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by 404hrm, May 12, 2008.

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  1. h0m3r Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    It's just typical behavior, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. I'd hope we would be able to have a separate protest without being /b/ombarded.
  2. digitalangel Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    I don't care who does the interviews/media shite so long as they aren't acting like ass-hats. ^_^ Hell, if I didn't turn into a rambling fool everytime someone throws a camera in my face I'd be willing to field an interview.

    I'm saddened that there will be no immediate reconciliation. I hold out hope for the future.

    I will likely attend the latter half of the first protest and the ealry half of the second. I don't think I'll be able to attend all of either due to having kids at home.

    There will be pierat wimmenz!
  3. Mål Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES


    Basically, the split s being caused by the lulz. If the split is valid at all then it would only make sense for the anti-moralfags to raid the other protests. (basically what Dan said.)

    Dan also just proved why the split can do NOTHING BUT HURT! People are obviously less inclined to join a split group protest. If dan is not going I'd not be surprised if others followed.

    Why can't we just go on with the next protest as planned. If any moralfags find that they cannot stand those around them then do the split. It is just sort of childish to go "OH WELL I DISUGREE WID YOU GUYZ SO IM NOT GUNNA CUM". Im sure there will be a lot less offensive lulz this time around, now that you guys have taken a stand. If there's not thensplit

    But it is worth pointing out that splitting is about as usefull as just disbanding all together.
  4. digitalangel Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Well there's that.

    Is everyone willing to try once more for June and if there is still trouble after that, then split or fall apart or whatever comes?
  5. ormuzd Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Forgetting all the tension and continuing like we always have would be the best solution if it's possible. It's only been 2 days since the protest and it seems like some of the arguments were pretty heated. Maybe once it dies off everyone will decide that what we are doing now works and we should keep at it.
  6. Mål Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    I am not entirely sure it will blow over that easy. It is not as if the moral fags (the ones thinking about leavin) are just sort of pissed. They're offended and disgusted. Or so I understand.

    That said, cooling off might be a good idea.
  7. 404hrm Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    I think the point is that "typical behaviour" of a group, or "past behaviour" of known invidiuals doesn't count, only something you can post a link to. *shrug*

    We shall see what happens. When the response to "I don't like you, and don't want want to be in your presence, but still want to find a way to contribute to the cause meaningfully" is "I demand you spend more time in my presence until you agree with my point of view," nothing but circular logic will appear.

    My bitching aside...If there are any anons I can arrange to drop of the massive load of signs, etc. that are in my car with...that would be a good thing. I still have quite a few in tehre, some of which are well made, as well, I have a bunch of other supplies from previous protests. They will probably serve the major better than a minority!
  8. ormuzd Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    That's why I added "if possible". Most of my responses are based on the notion that it isn't. That doesn't mean I don't wish that the problems can be solved without any drastic changes in how we operate.
  9. Mål Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    HAVE YOUNEVER SEEN A SITUATIONAL COMEDY?! The only way for us to resolve this is to some how get you and the people you dont like to get stuck together. HILARITY AND HI JINX will occur and you'll learn a bit about each other and YOURSELVES. Slowly, as the episode nears its end you'll get unstuck and you'll rejoice at first, only to find yourselves missing eachother
  10. 404hrm Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    That is true, at least in my case. (I won't speak for others, that's their place.) The other part of this that is worth bearing in mind, (once the whole me/edmontonanon dramafight is thrown aside,) is that this is, something that's been building for a while, due to many things. It is not a "well, I NEVER" at one or two particular items, followed by storming out. I mean, hey, if someone really wants to hear the full litany, I'd be glad to go for coffee and vent my spleen on this. As it is, I've only really subjected the two poor anons I work with to it.

    If you ask around to some of the people that know me, you'd know I'd voiced concerns like this before, heck, the whole reason I started an IRC server was to have a place away from partyvan to be able to discuss protest-y things.

    Even if EdmontonAnon and I managed to resolve things, that would still leave a pile of things that I have found fairly offensive during the protests. I've honestly tried to just grin and bear it. (There are anons who could tell you about some of my more colourful rants.) I've come to the protests even knowing there were going to be things that would rub me the wrong way, and tried to smile and just move on.

    Some of the things that happened at this protest, as well as some dealings with anons online, (providing hosting for them, etc.) simply pushed me over the edge. I just sat down and asked myself "why do I put myself through this?" and realised that "because scientology is bad" wasn't a good enough answer. If joining the main protest was the ONLY WAY I had to fight scientology, I probably would do it. The reality is though I have as many options available to me as I choose, so why go looking for grief?
  11. AnonyMysterio Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Hail from Vancouver folks. We are united out here, though, we defiantly have diverse ethics. I think the one thing we all seem to agree on out here, is that this phase of Project Chanology is a Public Relations Mission. A huge key to our success is not alienating Joe average. Even though you are standing around like a bunch of freaks in masks you need to do your best to somewhat present an air of legitimacy.

    Now don't get me wrong!
    Lulz are massively important in order to maintain and promote moral. There must be a way for you folks to find a balance between being a jack ass jester and being an offensive jack ass jester. Dance parties are silly shit and good times. Get creative! There are many many memes out there that are good times and pg rated. Remember this is about our collective objective here. This is about our solemn vow to take down CO$. Keep your eye on the ball brothers and sisters.

    Perhaps you need to inform the public a little about the open source nature of our collective? It may help the moral folks digest the fact that they are in the midst of kidz they aren't down with?

    Remember our strength is our numbers. We are about to step it up out here. I wish you very best of luck in healing your schism. Stay cool folks. You can do it. Your fucking Canadians!:guyfawkes:
  12. Mål Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    404, I may take you up on the offer to hear the whole rant. Someone has to get the signs anyways, right? Is this weekend any good?

    That said, after reading this all through, I have to semi-agree with why you are leaving, and it sucks, but if it is absolutely unreasonable to as you to join us again (and it seems to be) then your decision is right. better to have everyone working together than have one big group that hates eachother.

    However, the split WILL result in the death of these raids, that or (as in lord of the flies) one group will be assimilated into another, leaving 2 or 3 anons feeling betrayed.
  13. ormuzd Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Unfortunately I live too far away for a face-to-face. Still, I trust that your reasons are more than valid. I'd just hope you'd be willing to try to soldier through with the rest of us again.
  14. Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    I really do want to know, I can't see it but that doesn't mean it's not there, although keep in mind that I've only been to two protests (April's and May's.) You can send me a heaping helping of your unbridled rage via PM if you like.
  15. digitalangel Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    I don't see why it has to be death...
    Two groups protesting the same place on the same day at different times isn't going to change that we went out and protested in a form of unity that keeps everyone relatively comfortable with who they're protesting with.
    And if there are some people who hang with both groups, like I'm willing to do, then the changing from one protest group to the other will just look like some people showed up later and some people left earlier. Especially if we coordinate a time and whatnot.
  16. Mål Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Why don't a few of us meet up at a coffee place in west ed(or kingsway) or some heavily trafficed place this weekend. It's the May long and those of us willing can still hand out flyers and shit after we finish coffee.

    I want to hear the whole thing simply because I am interested in sociology, plus this is FUCKING EXACTLY LIKE LORD OF THE FLIES for which I have a test pretty soon. (itd also be good for that news report I have to do for school)

    Digital angel:

    It spells death because our numbers are so low, so what could happen is:

    1)A clear 50/50 (moar like 60/40) split happens
    2)There will be some shuffling leaving the split at 30/70 or 20/80
    3)The majority of the minority will probably quit all together:

    This means about 15-30% of our members leave. Then many members will be angry at this loss and leave. Others will see the dwindling numbers and follow. I forsee about 20-30% of the protesters staying. (which, when you have about 25 people is only 5-7 people.)
  17. digitalangel Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    I'm into a meetup. Though I'd prefer Kingsway to West Ed if possible. West Ed is a bit out of the way for me.
  18. h0m3r Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Exactly. I highly doubt they would even notice anything except that they'll have to hide out a little longer.
  19. ormuzd Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Mal, great idea. I'm more than willing to meet at West Edmonton Mall or Kingsway to discuss this in person. Both are about the same distance away from me.

    Edit: Sunday would be the best day for me.
  20. 404hrm Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    kingsway ish or downtown would be best, as I am a northsider who works downtown.

    Traditionally, actually, we've met at the Tim Hortons on 107th St and Jasper Ave, because of the public transport access via the LRT etc. etc. An after work thing would not be bad.
  21. digitalangel Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Sunday I'm working till 5 but after that I'm good.

    If we hit up an Sbux I can get us a discount. :p

    Or... no one could leave...! (I know... I'm hoping for the best with that statement.)
    Well, we will see what happens I suppose. We're going to lose some protestors either way. I'd like to find the best way to lose as few as possible. ;)
  22. Mål Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    an after work thing would not work for me (unless it's on Firday, in which case it could ONLY END WELL) as I don't live in edmonton :\ But if it is better for everyone else we should do it.(it's a pain in any situation as I need my mommy or daddy to drive mee in, so do what works better for the rest of ya'll. I just figured as I have half the signs already I might as well take the rest.)

    Digital angel, which anon were you?
  23. ormuzd Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    That's genius. If no one left, then no problem :D

    Anyway, for me it's mostly a question of Transportation. I can do weekdays easily because the buses run.
  24. digitalangel Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    I can probably do a Friday or a Saturday thing as long as I've got a bit of a heads up. Not working either of those days but I've got kids so I'll have to ask my s/o if he'd be willing to watch them.
  25. EdmontonAnon Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    If the lulz were all the anti-moralfags cared about, possibly, but IMO it's not all about the lulz, it's about keeping ourselves entertained and in high spirits while we protest the CoS. So no, it doesn't make sense for the anti-moralfags to raid other protests, it's completely counterproductive to our cause. I for one will not, you have my word on that.

    I'd be willing to pick up the signs and hell, even go for the face to face if you're still willing to talk to me. I'd like to hear your side in it's entirety before any sort of split occurs in the raids. I think we managed Brewsters fairly well, surely we can keep from killing each other for a cup of coffee?
  26. digitalangel Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Red hair, silver kabuki-like mask. I was the girl who made the joke about showing up in the full kimono to match the mask... :p
  27. 404hrm Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Whomever wants to do a coffee thing, please PM me, we can set up a time or such.
  28. Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    O_O Well, this is sure going to be an odd change for me. In that case, just going to share my observations/flamebait:

    First, I do agree with AnonyMysterio. And to add to that, the two things that started this whole thing was the public and the lulz. IMO, we can't exactly have one without the other: it's the lulz that gets Joe Public away from Canadian Idol and to our protests, it's the human rights abuses he finds that keeps him there, and vice versa.

    In other words, it's like bait and switch, but for great justice XD

    As well, I think we always have to keep in mind what's best for who we're targetting: the public. The object is to get them informed (more, perhaps, than just "Scientology is bad"), so what's the best way to get them interested?

    Lulz. I joined Anonymous for the justice, I stayed for the lulz.

    Think about it. Unlike a lot of protests, this isn't the usual "doom and gloom, you have to be a hardcore supporter, etc." type of deal. Our strength is not just the social justice, it's that it's fun.

    Now, let's take the same viewpoint from the other side: Captain O tells me that moralfags don't like the racist slurs and swears and such, and anti-moralfags don't like being, for lack of a better word, oppressed.

    There's more lulz to be had, however, when Joe Public is enjoying the protest too. And if Joe Public is having fun and getting informed, our job is done.

    Neither we nor they can enjoy it, however, when we can't see beyond the tips of our noses―we go from being the Rhinocerous party to being Reform Rhinos v. Alliance Rhinos. Then the Marijuana party takes back the apathy vote, and it just gets wierd from there :S

    If certain memes offend the public, they become not lulz, but fail. And if there's one thing Anonymous knows how to get rid of, it's fail. It's that darwinism of ideas that decides what memes become classics, and it's that same darwinism that springs Anonymous's greatest strength: adaptability. If the public doesn't like a meme, it goes back to the internet, and we move on.

    With all this said, however, if you guys want it to be a succesful, united protest, there has to be more people involved. More people=more ideas=a better idea of the needs of the general public. It works a bit like a survey, I suppose: while you can get an idea of popular opinion from a small sample, the larger samples will give you the most accurate idea of what everyone thinks, and will lend way more credibility.

    Tl;dr: The public and lulz for the public is paramount: lack of IRL lulz and consideration for the public will inevitably lead to fail. Also, sorry for the text wall.
  29. 404hrm Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Actually, I agree with you 100% on this. Serious Business has to be counterbalanced by lulz. My issues lie with where lulz gets into bigotry. There are plenty of lulz to be had without having to go into offending/hurting others. Never let it be said that any protest, business, party, or social gathering of any sort should be entirely devoid of humour. My issue is with the lack of boundries, not the idea of lulz.
  30. Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    As I said:

    Sorry, guess I should put that in the summary "^_^
  31. 404hrm Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Ah, my fault for not reading the text wall. >< My apologies for douche-posting. Watching stargate and reading forums. :)

    Edit: I <3 your avatar.
  32. Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Thanks ^_^

    And don't worry, we all go ADD sometimes. Blame tv and internet, lol.
  33. EdmontonAnon Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES


    Text wall? There's no text on the internet, it's a series of tubes.
  34. Nason Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    holy shit it took me forever to catch up with all that...fuck guys...lots of words....i'll sum up what i have to say by saying...vancover guy...i think you've got the right perspective...while lulz are great...this is about getting the word there's no advantage to alienating the public...i don't think i understood at any point that the moralfags wanted all lulz to be killed...just the ones that offend general joe...and it'll really depends on how the next month goes whether i'll attend the next one too...
  35. 404hrm Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Your name really should be anoncat. :D Hooray for cats.
  36. Nason Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    lol i'd thought of changing it that...but i like what Nason means...Not Any Sort Of Name...anonymous in itself :p
  37. Fick Sucker Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Hey, this is Pedobear AKA The non-gay Riddick. I spent over 2 hours catching up on the posts in this and the post-game thread, and even more time writing this one so I hope you'll be willing to read this post in its entirety, especially you 404 and Hom3r.
    If you do not read this entire post, then please do me a favour and refrain from replying to it at all.

    About my Pedobear costume:

    I think of myself much more as a 'neutral'. Perhaps you guys don't think of me that way, but I suppose you've only seen me twice, so I don't expect you to know everything about me, like my educational background or my past or current line of work. I suspect that the reaction to my Pedobear costume has little to do with the costume itself but is instead just frustration at other members that has gotten displaced onto me, and I honestly can see how the costume could be a very negative symbol to you. However, if that is the case (and I'm not saying it is, but it might be) I do believe someone may owe me an apology.

    Despite the pedobear costume I don't really exemplify the people you guys have a problem with. I don't visit 4chan, any of the memes I have seen are recycled memes that make it onto one humour forum that I visit which by the way is censored so I've never really seen Pedobear being directly connected to CP in the way perhaps some of you have. Also, I don't participate in any of the other internet stuff people do at the protests other than the Rick Rolling (which I admit I really love by the way).

    My intention with the pedobear costume is that it would be an inside joke that would boost morale for our group without being understood by anyone outside, and that it could also bring attention to us because of its cuteness. In that sense, I thought it was doing more harm than good. In my mind, it would have positive consequences on the whole, and I had good intentions in doing it, thus (at least in my mind) meeting two criteria for what is considered ethical. It certainly wasn't easy making it, and I don't really get much credit for it considering we are anonymous after all.

    Try to appreciate where I'm comming from with this. I come from a background where bad things used to happen everyday and to some extent still do. I LIVE in the neighbourhood that you guys call a crack den (thanks for calling it that by the way). One of the ways I and some of my friends have learned to deal with harsh realities is with humour. To some extent I am emotionally desensitized to bad things and so long as they are happenning at a distance, I actually find them humerous sometimes. I really can't help it. You gotta grow where you are planted. Does this make me a sociopath? I don't think so. If I saw somone being beaten in the street I would intervene sooner than a lot of you would. But yeah if I just heard that it happenned in my neighbourhood, I would probably throw out a comment like 'lol, what a wonderful neighborhood we live in.' That's just how I deal. Freud thought that humor was a defense mechanism and also one way of saying things that can't be said directly. Maybe he was right.

    Long story short, because of my background, I find certain things more funny than offensive, so I apologize if I offended some of you. I'm not saying my actions were justified, but maybe now you can understand them.

    My opinion on lulz and law breaking:

    I'm certainly against breaking the law, even something as simple as jaywalking. I didn't break any laws while protesting (unless I jaywalked while in the Pedobear mask but I was practicaly blind) and I frown upon tapping on the glass, putting signs right up against the window, racist comments, parking illegally on the wrong side of the street, etc. I've always been on the side of the street opposite to the church and there seems to have been much less trouble there. I was not aware of the window tapping or the pressing of the sign against the window until it was posted in the forums.

    I think lulz in general are absoluteley fine as long as they don't break the law, they don't blatantly discredit us and as long as they are balanced out with some serious knowledge and signage. In particular, the unrelated signage bothered me somewhat. If you noticed me at the last protest, I had a silly costume but a serious sign. That's the way I think it should be.


    Look 404, no matter what we have done, you have to admit that you are at least partially to blame here for letting all this shit build up inside until it exploded in a big drama bomb. Basically you waited until it was too late. You have to admit that. I'm not saying I'm in the right here, but you did the wrong thing too in that respect. I know you are a good person and you will recognize this as true and realize that it obligates you to be at least a little flexible with us now. You said you did some things to cope... well smiling and moving on doesn't always work. Ranting at individual protesters isn't good enough. You should have found a way to deal with the subject and raise it properly before this point.

    Do not mistake what I am about to say here. I'm not saying this is the case. In fact, I'm praying it's not. People have a great way of explaining away selfish or morally neutral decisions with reasons that are very noble and logical, but are absolutely false. People are excellent liars, even to themselves, and the most articulate and intelligent of us are ussually the best at this. Now some, dare I say, most of your grievances in terms of behaviour at the protests can be remedied. If you truly mean what you said, then I expect that if things do change, we will see you back with us again.

    404, now you have to ask yourself carefully whether you're doing this because of valid reasons or because of illogical feelings. My impression is it's a bit of both. You said that you would have to dull yourself and become inhuman to put up with some of the things that go on at the protests. I agree that some things are excessive and I absolutely do not suppourt them, but I dealt with it because I didn't engage in those things and I know that on balance we're still doing the right thing.

    But guess what? Sometimes having a tough skin doesn't make you lose your humanity, sometimes that's what being human is all about. Ignoring your emotions and just doing the right thing is what it means to be a man sometimes. That's what human beings do. We have to deal with the harsh reality of nature... birds have adapted to fly, humans, well they have adapted to use reason, to cooperate and sometimes even set aside our emotions. That's what Aristotle to some extent and especially Epictetus and the Stoics talked about. So if it's truly against your morals, than by all means, leave, but if any part of this is just the anger talking, well that part's not ethical at all. Don't you agree?

    hypocrisy and the use of masks/symbols:

    404, Hom3r. You guys are obviously very intelligent. I know you are aware of the fact that Anonymous is NOT a charitable organization. To call Anonymous ethical would be an outright lie. Anonymous is often cruel, rude and depraved. They act in immoral ways, play mean pranks and say reprehensible things. I have no doubt you are aware of that and were aware of that before you came to the protests.

    How come you criticized me for wearing a pedobear mask, saying that I suppourt CP and all this shit when you yourselves continue to wear the Guy Fawkes mask? You know very well that it symbolizes Anonymous. So I ask that if you really want to distance yourselves from what we're doing and really feel that my pedobear mask was reprehensible that you both refrain from wearing the fawkes mask which symbolizes anonymous and all of its depravity, and give or sell those masks to some members who will use them. Also, are these boards run by anonymous? I'm not sure. I have read this claim on the scientology kids website. If that's the case, you know what to do.

    One of the reasons I reacted so strongly to you guys is because censorship is one of the reasons I protest the CO$, it's also what got Anonymous started against them. If we censor ourselves too much, we won't be much better than they are. Censorship isn't the main reason I'm against the CO$, I hate it more for its ruthless corporation/anti-psychiatry angle but it's still an important reason. We are legion, not communist Russia.

    What can be done about our current dilema?

    Since I noticed that the troublemakers seem to naturally gather on one side of the street or the other, perhaps we could have a serious side and a more ethical, knowledgable, reputable side. If our protests are on the same day then we're going to get associated with one another anyway, and you can make your moral stand on the other side of the street just fine. so why not be out together in force? If you want to enforce certain codes of conduct on your side, I'm not a big guy but I could lend moral suppourt and any other suppourt I can lend lawfully. Decent people mean well but quit sometimes when they can't find a good way to do something. Truly good people find a way to not compromise thier morals while still getting results. Everytime a bunch of anons go over and do something stupid, your mere presence there, not engaging in that activity is a form of protest in itself and it prevents things from getting more out of hand.

    404, you have broken the law by parking where you did, and you have engaged in lesser acts of /b/tardetry like the Rick Roll which isn't exactly a random act of kindess. I realize that you have to draw the line somewhere, I respect that, but realize that for some of us, it's not that we don't draw a line, it's just that we just draw it in a slightly different place than you do and on different principles. I never heard any racism or sexism, (other than that song) but if there was any, it bothers me too.

    Also, 404, for somone who claims to take things clinically, you sure play around with the definition of evil a lot. In my opinion, evil is doing wrong for its own sake. Acting stupidly or selfishly is not 'evil', it's not right but it is what it is, don't call it evil. A lot of people purse thier own interest, but there is sucha thing as real evil, and I don't think you should throw that term around, you devalue it.

    My ethical beliefs (skip this part if you don't care)

    I don't know anything about Nihlism but it sounds a lot like moral relativism. I believe that moral relativism and moral absolutism are compatible and I think the Buddha explained pretty well one way in which you can get morality from practically nothing. And if you haven't noticed, compared to all the different groups that have such high ethical standards and absolute ideals, the Buddhists fair pretty well in terms of behaving morally even though our belief system essentialy defies logic and fixed rules.

    We share a common human condition, a common evolution, a common environment and we all feel pleasure and pain. I believe it was Locke that said that the world is structured in such a way that we cannot help but have 'natural law' impressed upon us by growing up here. The very fact that we are born, we die, we have parents, we must live in societies to survive and even evolution itself neccessitate certain things, so in that respect I think that morality is somewhat absolute. However if things were different, so would morality have to be. If we or our world suddenly changed, then different things would become ethical. For example, if humans always knew each others thoughts, then telling a lie would become something totally different. If pleasure and pain reversed, you may well be committing an unethical act by tying up your secratary in an office chair, force a massage on her and then brutally raping her, killing her, raping her again and then disposing of the body. Joking aside, I think that in some ways all morality is relative and in others it is absolute. If you want to see truth, thinking in black and white rarely helps.

    My ethical beliefs are based mostly on Zen Buddhism and Utilitarianism but with strong influences from other traditions such as the Greeks (Aristotle, Epicurus, Epictetus) and others great philosophers such as Kant. I don't believe any one of them alone had the answer, but that we should remember the teachings of each one at the appropriate time and ask ourselves all the important questions when we're confused as to what to do.


    I didn't mean any harm by the pedobear mask, and I apologize if I've offended anyone. Some of the things that happenned at the protest bothered me too, but I am sticking with the protest despite my discomfort because I feel it's the right thing to do and I hope you will too. Maybe you and the other more serious protestors can do so in one area or one side of the street while the others take the other side.

    There are a few things that you guys have done or continue to do that I feel is hypocritical, such as suppourting censorship within our group, complaining about people breaking the law when you have broken it yourselves (eg illegal parking) or criticizing me for wearing the Pedobear mask even though you wear the Guy Fawkes/Anonymous mask despite the fact that you very well know how depraved Anonymous is. Like it or not, if I deem fit, I WILL show up at your protests and you'll just have to deal with that. However I was pretty contained during this last protest, so I'll probably fit in just fine and i won't make any waves. That is my normal behaviour.

    Stick with it, the people that are in it just for the lulz will go away eventually, and guys, don't take this too much as a criticism. The best philosophers often reserved thier harshest criticisms for the guys they had the most in common with. Although I'm not a philosopher, I think that's what's going on here. I have the highest respect for you guys, but I disagree with you on a few points. I would definately not like to see you go though.

    PS: I absolutely do not suppourt CP, but I do have a pretty obvious Asian fetish. Does that count?
  38. 404hrm Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES


    The INTENTIONS behind an action mean far more to me than the action itself. When I said I would not be playing that CD of EdmontonAnon's, or anyone else's, it was because I found the content deplorable, and simply did not want to take part. There was no drama needed, it was simply a statement of fact. It could cheerfully have ended there, except that EdmontonAnon took exception to this, and off we went. I did not happen to like EdmontonAnon personally, especially based on his professed personal belief system, but at the time, I was willing to cut him a lot of slack, and believe he didn't intend for it to be offensive. His statement of "I'm going to bring my own boombox to the next protest and play it once just to prove a point" however, did change that thinking for me, because he had just publicly made a choice to do something he knew others found offensive, BECAUSE they found it offensive. Seriously, my decision to simply not attend the protest is due to a large number of little things just like that. Conscious decisions people have made to offend others, rather than the unintentional ones.

    So while I'll not speak for the other "moralfags" here, not once did I believe you to be a bad person for your pedobear costume. In bad taste, maybe, and perhaps not quite thought through, but unlike EdmontonAnon's choice there, (and the choices of dozens of others many of which I'll review for those that care at that coffee meeting,) I don't think you INTENDED insult.

    So if you took insult from my being insulted by the actions of others...I am sorry.

    Full Version

    Um, dude, I never had a real big issue with the pedobear costume. I may have my issues with things, but I *am* intelligent enough to know that you likely didn't mean it to be prancing around supporting child pornography. I *did* think it was in bad taste for a public outing, and that it was an example of something not exactly thought through...but had I honestly thought you were out there pimping CP, we'd have had words then and there.

    Look, Pedobear as a meme is HILARIOUS. When that meme is used in the context of people who understand it, the FULL implications of it, the irony behind it, (that it is a satirical representation of essentially everything that is bad/wrong with the internet,) there's even a whole stream of Steven Colbert (BEARS!) gags that fit right well into pedobear.

    Now gods know I'm not perfect, and I've admitted as much many times. At no point do I, at least, remember blaming you, personally for anything. The whole Pedobear costume was...creepy...but if you've spent enough time on the net you know that the person in it is probably harmless, and trying to be funny.

    As to "letting all this shit build up inside/hypocrisy" again this all has to be taken with a great heaping dose of CONTEXT. Understand I am *not* a regular enturb poster. I did *NOT* intend for this to go and mushroom cloud all drama-bomb. You can thank/blame EdmontonAnon there.

    Certainly, I was upset after some pretty horrible things I had witnessed over the weekend, and they catalyzed anger I had been dealing with over the more fucked up actions of the protestors, and other anons. Did I overreact in my initial post? Oh probably. Anger always has a way of making people say things in a dramatic fashion. My INTENTION however, was not to cause some massive drama bomb, but to say a fond farewell to some of you, to make sure those who left things in my car could arrange to get them, and then I INTENDED to go my separate ways, and do my own separate thing.

    EdmontonAnon took it as his personal crusade to challenge that, and everything else I believe/think about, and Mal his personal crusade to prevent me from leaving. The truth of the matter is this *isn't* something I've "bottled up inside." This is something I've had very deep discussions with anons from around the world with, mainly in various IRC channels, and locally at least, face-to-face with several of them.

    Just as I would never want to put words in your mouth and REMOTELY try to say what you INTENDED with your pedobear costume, (except to say that I BELIEVE You intended it to be hilarious, not to support CP,) please don't make an assumption about my motives.

    Look, I know that a big fat guy and a cube car that were something of a regular appearance at the protests would be noticed if I just stopped showing up, and people deserved an answer as to why. I was trying to do the RIGHT THING by stating my reasons, and then GTFOing. MY mistake in this matter is when I let EdmontonAnon's responses get under my skin, and I responded to his epic troll.

    I don't hate everything anonymous stands for. A lot of it is good, but a lot of it is bad, too. My issue with anonymous is that it's members refuse to embrace any limits, ESPESSIALLY IN PUBLIC. When you know your audience can handle what's being thrown out, and understands the CONTEXT of what's being said/portrayed, then hey, you are limited by your own sweet little self. I believe very strongly, however, that in public, there are should be firm limits to behavior, and there are lines you should not cross. If you want to know why, and why it means so much to me, when obviously to so many of you, that concept doesn't mean a thing...join us for coffee. Seems to be Friday at 6:30, somewhere downtown.

    The absolutely impassioned arguments here to the concept that I might just have the audacity to be offended by the actions of some people seem to be "well that's the way it is, live with it." If I believed in that, I wouldn't be protesting anything. I understand that some people are douche bags and that's just the way it is. I refuse, however, to accept it, and I will take my moral stand against it, for whatever little said symbolism is worth, just as I want to do something about CoS. It's interesting how you have no problem wiht standing up to CoS, decrying their tactics, and their propaganda, but once someone is willing to take a stand against what you personally believe in, that rulebook is out the door, and it's flame on.

    Morality/Ethics/Etc: You are right, I've thrown around the word "evil" and "morals" etc. a lot, so let me try to clean this up. A kid who walks around using a derogatory word, without understanding it's true meaning, or who uses it without ever having been made aware of the kind of damage repeated use of that word can have on people, is not evil. Uninformed, yes, but not "evil". Using that same word, knowing it's full meaning, and possessed of the full knowledge that his use of that word, and hers, and theirs, and that of dozens or hundreds of others over the course of a lifetime can seriously wear down the self-respect and self-worth of someone is "evil". If you know something is wrong, and you do it anyway, that is "evil". That's what moral absolutism is all about. Now, a whole debate could spring up around "this is more evil than that" etc, but to a moral absolutist, that doesn't matter.

    Now, the other part of this is that I do, personally consider the belief that absolute right and wrong don't exist/apply as "evil" because it is saying that the intention to do harm to someone, physically, emotionally, mentally, or to their property can be acceptable or correct, depending on circumstance. I can not accept that ideology at all. To my belief system it is never right to intentionally harm another. Now context matters, of course. If you truly believe that saying "X" or doing "X" will not cause harm, and that those around you are aware of, for example, the satire of saying "X", then hey, all good. No harm is being done intentionally.
  39. digitalangel Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES


    1. I would proudly wear a Guy Fawlkes mask regardless of Anonymous. Its symbology existed before anonymous took it up as a symbol. I think that, for a masked protest, it is quite approriate. I am not sure I appreciate that its meaning is being displaced but that is a completely different issue. One I hadn't thought of until now... Either way, I do not associate Guy Fawlkes masks with Anon; I associate it with Revolution!

    2. Something to keep in mind: not everyone who is posting here or attending the protests is a part of or a supporter of Anonymous. They merely support the cause that Anon is currently championing. I will not attach my name to Anonymous, for example.

    Definitions of moral concepts are hard to debate. Evil can mean something very different from one ethic to the next. My definition of evil is almost identical to 404s. And when I am faced with a person whom I believe to be acting in that manner, it is my general tactic to "disconnect" (ahaha couldn't resist) from that person. In some cases I will act against them if I believe it to be evil enough.

    But I also don't believe that most people do wrong or hurtful things for its own sake. I tend to think that people are ignorant of the harm they cause. Self-interest tends to lean toward ignorance. Selfishness tends to be willful ignorance/apathy.

    I think there has been a bit of both going around and sadly that leads to where we are now.
  40. h0m3r Member

    Re: Edmonton, Alberta (Alternate) AKA LORD OF THE FLIES

    Before I reply to Fick (and thanks Fick for taking the time to write all of that), I want to clarify that there was never one issue that irritated me enough to back out. I am in this fight because I am passionate about exposing Scientology and have been very conflicted about what my next move shall be. Like 404 had, I overreacted too, and made a much bigger scene than him - mind you, I'm a girl... that's what we're good at. I have before and will again apologize to those who feel I may have been pointing fingers at. If anybody feels like I was calling them out on ANYTHING, I'm sorry. Those were not my intentions as that was not how I felt.

    Let me clarify first that I have been doing an amazing amount of lurking and have dug up plenty of things about Anonymous that I personally, and I'm sure most of you, find nothing short of vile and tasteless. I've been speaking to a few people on/off this site and many are completely oblivious to this. I do not think that any of you are involved in this, but then I find comments from certain users that are just as discusting, it does a fantastic job of making me question myself and my own naivety. So I've come to the conclusion that I will never be able to tell apart who's who no matter how well one's rationalizes the situation.

    This takes us to what Fick said about Guy Fawkes Masks. I previously had refused to ever wear the mask again because of reasons said. There's no possible way to take the chan out of the EFG, so I will remove myself from what it symbolizes. At the same time, I still would prefer to stay "anonymous" so I will have to find ways around the roadblock I've just made, that's fine. Like I've said, I'm still conflicted about it all because I don't want to denounce Anonymous; there are many people here I respect and like. But if being a part of Anonymous' movement is not longer an option because I can't be accepted as a "member" and be ethical, then that really sucks but it's what I'd have to do. If I do drop the mask, I'm sorry but I still want to hold onto it - I hope you can understand why.

    About Pedobear Costume : I honestly don't find the joke itself offensive. I completely understand why you wore it, and did LOL at the whole satirical sense of the costume. But let's take a look at our "roots" which go back to 4chan. We wear the same mask, we have the same name - there's no differentiating between the channer Anonymous and the moralfag Anonymous. So (and this is only how I perceive it) when we take the memes that originated from the dark side and make it into a satire - I feel like I'm doing a pedo's dirty work. Not only do we look like one of them, but we are like cheerleaders on the sideline rooting for the pedos. They are playing us for fools and that's where the real lulz ensue - in their basements.

    About an Alternate Protest, I don't see why there are so many objections. I refuse to stand beside certain people while we share the same message so if I've found a way to do what I love doing (enturbulating scis) and I'm not calling for an end to the /b/ part of the protest, please let me be. I figured that this solution would provide us (the extramoralfags) opportunity to continue to fight. This my no means makes us any weaker than me completely walking away from it all.

    I'm 21. I manage a business, am in school and have friends outside of Chanology. I stretch myself thin and have been neglecting other aspects of my life because I found this all lulzy and worth my time. I shouldn't have to explain (to this extent) why I don't want to be a part of this nor should I have to fight for the right to stage something separately. I don't have time to do either anymore and really hope that people can understand that for me, separating myself from the main protest is my only solution. I do not wish to separate the groups but I do feel that if anybody else is also uncomfortable then please join me. Or as one anon planned, be a part of both.

    tl;dr I apologize for whomever I've offended by throwing my morals around the place but I cannot continue to protest with /b/tards or anyone that wants to use their memes as satire because we look like become 4chan spokepeople. This is my personal decision and I understand the consequences but I must face them in order to stay true to myself. What I'll never do is give up my fight.

    edit: Digitalangel, I agree with the association of GF/Revolution. That is how I see it, so I would like to wear it but I've been called out on being hypocritical for doing so, which I understand. I also would like to continue to post here, in the same way you do. Someone had once mentioned taking time to "cool off" and I like that. Let's all do that.

    edit2: 404 once mentioned the lack of trust between us, and for me that is definately evident. I have also witnessed an Edmonton anon with a loud voice completely lie through their teeth, so you can thank him for making me jaded. I'm just being cautious about what I believe.
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