Every 'Religion' Has A War

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by Meranonymous, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. Meranonymous Member

    Every 'Religion' Has A War

    Co$ v. Anonymous. This has been made clear with several messages. We are legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget. Though there has been an attempt to clarify that Anonymous is only trying to present information to people so that they may make there own decisions, I believe we can all agree that this "war" between these two parties creates excitement. Right now, Anonymous is building in number because actions are now being taken in public areas, in the real world. It's an exciting time to take a stance in a world based upon neutrality and living indoors.

    But every religion has a war. We, Anonymous, are building in number and becoming stronger and stronger in influencing the opinions of the world. We, the members of the Church of Scientology, are also growing in number and stronger in our faith*. There is no denying it, this is a war. I can only hope it remains non-militant because a real battle would be horrible for both parties (No one else should have to die for this struggle), but there needs to be some conversation in regards to what has happened in history, and what is happening today. I am no history or theology major, nor is it my passion, but I hope this topic will give us some tactical insight as we plan on how to react to Co$'s next move when they finally make it.

    Some Religions to Consider:
    - Whatever is discussed, I will bulletin point here. A summary will also be provided of each "battle" as generated by the readers of this forum.

    I know this is a fairly fantastic idea and may really hold no value, but if Co$ is capable of making such headway in the world, they must be treated as a serious opponent. At the very least, we can discuss how different religious organizations, cults, etc. have gained, or lost, tax exemption or political power.
    *I say We, the members of Co$, in hopes of reminding you all that these are people we're dealing with. Many of which are loved ones that have been literally taken away. We do not want them to be put in harms way. We do not want to force them to make a decision. It is our hope that they leave Scientology before their lives are taken away.
  2. saerat Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    It cant turn into an actual fight... WAY to much bad PR on both sides...
  3. Hostile Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    well, for starters, Christianity pretty much wiped out the native religions in the Americas

    and then there's world war II (being a nazi was like a religion at the time) and they persecuted (then arrested, then didn't feed, finally killing) the Jews.

    then there's how we pretty much worship longcat and all of the memes (it's too fun)
  4. deepthot42 Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War


    I believe many Anonymous have too much Aggression and not enough Compassion. We are trying to save these people.
    That's all I have to say on the subject for now.
  5. Consensus Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    I'm not sure your message is entirely clear.

    What exactly are you saying/asking?
    "Wouldn't it be horrible if this devolved into violence?" Well, yes, it would be - for all involved.
    "This conflict should be put in the context of all previous holy wars." No, that... that really doesn't make any sense, sorry. I did minor in history in college, and what we're doing here is unprecedented and very distinct from holy wars of old. It is a meme battle, certainly. The thing is, while members of Anonymous *are* outraged that the CoS gets away with doing such horrible, evil things, 'victory' for the CoS would simply involve most members of Anonymous forgetting about the movement and moving on with their lives, going about as though nothing happened. We really don't stand to lose much by continuing the fight non-violently, because, worst case scenario, we go back to our normal lives (with some new knowledge about human rights abuses that we can tuck into the part of our brain that's vaguely aware of the conflict in dafur and the middle east crisis and human trafficking and people starving in third world countries...). If violence is our only means of victory, we're just as likely to go home. It's too risky to use violence, we stand to lose too much.

    From the point of view of the CoS, however, they stand to lose everything. A 'loss' for them would be prison time, loss of wealth, loss of belief structure, existential angst, basically being forced to admit what they've done, make amends, and rebuild their lives from the ground up. This motivates the management. Furthermore, it is used to motivate their members - they're made to share in the blame, and to feel just as invested in Scientology as David Miscavage is, and in doing so, they are motivated to defend the Church. If violence enters the scene, it will most likely come from the side of a CoS 'true believer.' And that very action would reenergize public efforts by Anonymous and contribute directly to the undoing of the CoS.

    There is a third group, the fanatics. These are people who *are* personally invested in taking out the CoS, who would *not* be content to go on with their lives as if Anonymous never existed. Not that the average Anon doesn't care, just that... well, the average Anon doesn't stand to lose anything. We aren't doing this because we're afraid, or because we've been wronged, or because we're looking for some reward, we're actually standing up simply becuase we see an injustice and think we can fix it. It's really would be nothing for us to sit back down again, to stop taking an interest - and that's what makes Anonymous so amazing in the first place. But there are fanatics who could not, for whatever reason, ignore this situation. They are invested, and deeply attatched to the idea of the destruction of the CoS. One might make a plausible case that, were the non-violent approach to fail, they may pursue more dramatic means.

    But those fanatics were in the fight before Anon came along. Furthermore, right now the Anonymous movement is succeeding beyond anything they could have imagined. Finally, most of those fanatics are public 'old guard' people, and the CoS's 'fair game' tactics have done a good job of weeding those people OUT of the Old Gaurd. As such, the OGs are solid, high-quality people, who also have the *least* inclination towards violence.

    And as long as we're considering the possibility of fanatics, moving against the overall movement due to a misperception of what 'benefit' violence may bring, we have to entertain the possibility that a nutbag scientologist, without the advice or command of the CoS, may physically attack Anons out of desperation. Of course, this is most likely to happen out of desperation. The closer we get to complete victory, the more of a risk this becomes. As far as physical altercations, it's more likely in places where they outnumber the protestor. In terms of bombs, guns, chemical attacks, and so on - something that seems too absurd to really entertain seriously - large groupings of anons would be the best target. But how would that reflect on the CoS? That would destroy the organization in a night.
  6. Consensus Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    What a fantastic (and concise!) response! This should be on a poster, along with posters inviting scientologists to 'join the exodus.'
  7. Anon1OfLegion Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    Let's hope the leave via the front door.

  8. Meranonymous Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    I am not suggesting to put Co$ in the armor of any other religion in a war. I am not suggesting that there will, should, or needs to be violence. That would be quite unnecessary, and besides the point. There are similarities between the actions Anonymous and Scientology in regards to large religious and political movements in the past.

    I agree, this is nothing like the holy wars. There is very little we could draw out from the world's history for use that dates before the joy of the internet. But, this situation has come before many times. Two parties are competing to lead the opinion of the public to gain their support and eliminate their competitor. If Anonymous seeks to destroy the Church of Scientology, it must show why other religions are validated and Scientology is not. How is Co$ eluding the law, how have other religions done the same, are there similarities we can find? What are their tactics? Have they been used before? How did they work and how can we prevent these methods from working again?

    How have other activists attempted to bring down corrupted organizations? Where did they fail, and how can we learn from their mistakes to succeed?

    Once again, the goal is to stop the organization. If we're supposed to be the good guys, we don't want to do any wrong to these people. Help them make a decision for themselves and treat each individual as a human being, not a mindless drone.
  9. Consensus Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    I strongly endorse your call for compassion. First, it proves we're not monsters. Second, it acknowledges the reality that your average scientologist is not a monster. Finally, empathizing with those in scientology will best prepare us to appeal to them and to help them leave.

    I have to confess, I'm trying to write a response that refutes the idea that this is like any other meme war, and the more I think it through the more you're right. But it is extremely complicated. We have to identify our win conditions, we have to identify specific goals, we have to identify specific strategies.

    As with most meme wars, there are really two fronts: 1) the battle for public opinion; and 2) economic warfare.
    The economic war is simple: We need to 'starve the beast.' To destroy the Church of Scientology, we must dry up their financial reserves, destroy their ability to borrow, prevent them from recruiting, from fundraising, increase their operation costs, and so on. As for the CoS, they need to bring in enough money to outlast our siege, and they need to make it cost us too much (financially, emotionally, mentally, time-wise, etc) to stay involved.
    As far as the Public Relations battle, it's relevent in that it is the best framework to understand how each stategy serves to further our economic win scenario. Certainly our successful press release this week is going to be a major victory for Anon, as we did not have that with our previous protest. If we manage to get out larger numbers than the first time - something I'm optimistic about, but far from convinced yet - that will also be a major PR boost.
    Our message is to educate, to encourage objective study of both parties. The earnest, unbiased nature of this message works to our advantage. Their message is to impune us, to make us look like assholes. The simplicity and quotability of that message works to their advantage. In the end though, a lot of the public relations battle is impractical. We can educate an unwilling public, but it's costly - and for every person we expose to the evils of scientology, we'll get another that doesn't have time to listen. And even if they convince a person to take the 'live and let live' approach (and regard us as hate-mongers), they won't be much closer at all to recruiting or getting money out of that person. The average person is largely irrelevent to this movement (whereas most movements are simply about getting 51% of voters). The real victories to be counted are: (on our side) the number of Scientologists that leave; (victories for them) the number of Anons that stop caring and stop being involved; and (victory for either side) allies gained in government positions.
  10. Ironhead Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    Any animal is most dangerous when backed into a corner. it goes into a mode, where it's only strategy is to go for the throat and it will not stop until either it's dead, or you're dead.

    Try and tell me scilon fanatics wont strike if we're not careful...we may have to prepare our selves for something other than being tricked, lied to, or sued.

    I still think it's doubtful something like this could happen, but it never hurts to be vigilant.
  11. Meranonymous Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    Yes, Ironhead, I do consider that a possible outcome and sincerely wish it will never happen.

    As for our dear moderator, Consensus, there is an issue I think lying in the back of both of our minds. We can easily play devil's advocate or show some support toward the people in Scientology here on the forums and promote rational discourse, but keeping people focussed in real time can prove to be difficult. The more involved people become here, the better prepared we are to act as collective individuals on the scene. But that is besides the point.
  12. Consensus Member

    Re: Every 'Religion' Has A War

    You're right. As a whole, anonymous is an amazing beast. It is capable of speaking. Its behavior can pass the turing test. It has incredible powers of perception - every camera is its eyes, every microphone its ears, and it's quite adept at sorting the massive data it collects. It can tell what's relevent now and what isn't. And if data it once classified as irrelevent becomes relevent, it can 'recall' that old, discarded data. It is capable of being interpreted from the intentional stance, and it is capable of interpreting other organisms and meta-organisms from the intentional stance. It knows many languages. It maintains a clear image. It has a persona, a shadow-self, an id, an ego, and a super-ego. It rests, and it exercises, and it performs. It's capable of critical analysis beyond what any human is capable of.

    But when the nodes of the network venture forth on their own, they are weak. I myself would not be able to cite proof of much beyond the basic operation snow-white, operation freakout, BBC Panorama, and the tax exempt status thing. If any one person were to debate a scientologist with the aide of the enturb forums as support, that person would defeate any scientologist. One-on-one, the match becomes far more even. It's impossible to 'download' all of Anonymous into a single node. But each node must act as an extension of anonymous to have success.

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