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Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

Discussion in 'Jett Travolta' started by cowboyanon2, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    snip for stupid.
    Myself and every single person I know has been vaccinated. They are safe and save millions of lives each year. And when your kid dies from a preventable disease and your kid endangers the lives of other people/children due to your neglect, I hope you are sued into oblivion. Some people are born with the gene for autism, some people are not. I don't know one single person who has ever been more than sore from a vaccination. PERIOD. I'm sure the Internet has contributed to this wave of fear in parents who cannot accept that their child merely developed autism right on schedule, just as children have done for eternity. More children are being diagnosed because there is simply better means now for diagnosis for the child who years ago would have just been called "odd".

    Internet discussion on vaccines

    OMG my kid

    OMG you too?

    Must be vaccines.

    Just stop it here. THIS discussion is about keeping children safe and alive through proper medical treatment, not for TFhattery about a vaccine conspiracy.

    OH, and as for your child infecting others, get some education on HERD IMMUNITY

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

    Herd immunity only works if immunization rates in a community are high though, and can range for 85% for diphtheria to 92% for pertussis or whooping cough.
  2. cowboyanon2 Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    i see no prob with not getting vaccines... my kids get vaccines so they are fine... if ur kid doesn't get them they are lucky.. coz all the people who did have their children get vaccines prevented your child from getting it...

    otherwise ur child could be dead...

    besides that.. to get into public school and other things.. you have to have your vaccinations...

    so.. i am not concerned with anti-vaccine people... i am more concerned with anti blood transfusion people.. and anti-seizure meds people... cough cough jet travolta cough...
  3. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    First question.....What exactly is the gene for autism? Good luck finding that one out because genetecists and researchers all over the world have not yet been able to do that.

    Next question....How is my unvaccinated child going to harm your vaccinated one?

    Also, just because everyone *you know was vaccinated and is fine doesn't mean squat. I didn't even have the internet when he was vaccinated or when his BRAIN SWELLED (capitalized because apparently you missed that part the first time around). His encephalopathy is documented in his medical chart. I'm sure that messes up your theories about me...you'd be surprised to know that I am in the medical field and have worked for hospitals for more than 20 years. There are a lot of medical professionals who have concerns about vaccines.

    As for "stopping it here"...you started it when you made the comment that parents who do not vaccinate should go to jail. If you didn't think that opinion should be challenged then you shouldn't have stated it.

    And no, better diagnosis does not account for the increase. Autism has reached epidemic proportions. I do agree that it is likely partly genetic. If it was strictly genetic it would have been much easier to identify the gene and that would have been done by now. But, the fact remains that you cannot have an epidemic of a strictly genetic disorder. It just doesn't happen. There are environmental causes...these causes may be different for different people, I don't know.

    I'm glad that your child didn't suffer from your lack of research, however. Wish I could say the same thing about mine.
  4. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Actually you do not have to be vaccinated to get into public school. My child is in public school and has not had a vaccine since 15 months of age (with the exception of completing his polio series). If there were an outbreak of any of the diseases he is not vaccinated for, he would have to stay home from school however. My child has a medical exemption, however, had his physician not felt the need to give him such an exemption, he would still have not been vaccinated again. I would have homeschooled him.
  5. cubby Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    to avoid catching autism, the surgeon general recommends:

    ToddTinFoilOffice1.jpg
  6. Jettlag Member

  7. cubby Member

  8. cowboyanon2 Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    I sympathize with you.. my first born while still in womb.. was said to have encephalopathy.. but later tests determined it wasn't the case.. was one of the worst times in my life... and when he was born without it.... was one of the only times i have cried in last 20 years....

    hope he/ she is making it by...
  9. cowboyanon2 Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    i am in ny state.. thats the law here... although maybe there are exemptions
  10. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    You might be right about NY state...I'm not sure. Most states, however, do have exemptions. I personally wish every state had a philosophical exemption.
  11. cowboyanon2 Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    i was convinced b4 second test that son had it... like i said it was terrifying... are you convinced that immunization shots were the cause???
  12. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Yes, I am. The encephalopathy was immediately following the shots. He received them at our county's health department. I didn't take him home, I took him immediately to the emergency room. He was never the same after that.
  13. Jettlag Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    I'm a parent that researches all medical decisions for my kids - the "easy" and not so easy ones. It's usually boils down to evaluating the known/unknown and risk/benefit. We made the considered decision to vaccinate our kids. And we do have "spectrum" running on both sides of the family too.
  14. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    again, snipped for stupid.

    Clearly you haven't done your homework (as I have in dealing with Aspergers) They have discovered entire CHUNKS of DNA missing from strands in persons with Aspergers and autism, so much so that it's become somewhat of a joke to call it alien DNA.

    Again, you don't read. HERD IMMUNITY, educate yourself. THAT is how your unvaccinated child can harm others including the vaccinated. I know this sounds harsh but I seriously hope your kid gets something like the lady who just watched her 7 month old baby die because she refused the HIB vaccine. They just had a show on where this stupid ass woman had a son with autism so she refused any more vaccinations..then she stupidly reproduced again. Same deal NO vaccinations. Well autistic son gets the measles and is in the hospital seriously ill..they try to convince her to immunize the other kid, she freaks...no way...the sick kid gets sicker, they are not having much luck saving his life...but she's still stuck on stupid..finally the doctor comes into the room with a vaccination takes the unvaccinated kid and gives him the MMR...just as the other kid died.

    My great granny would slap you silly for not using a life saving vaccine for your child. Clearly you have never had to watch a child die from Croup, Diptheria, Measles, Whooping cough...Ggranny didn't have the luxury of vaccines and infant mortality and childhood diseases were the death nell for their children. And yes, oddly she had an autistic son (my great uncle)...and he was never vaccinated. ODD THAT.

    The only thing that is going to stop this shit is when, in a few years when herd immunity is even lower lots of kids die because their parents were stuck on stupid. When parents of today have to face what parents of yesterday faced, then the stupid will stop. You unvaccination parents are counting on the vaccinating parents to keep your kids from getting sick, that is incredibly stupid. The more of you freaks there are, the more and more changes there are to the herd immunity. Just wait and see. Unvaccinated children are entering society at alarming rates...and soon, the will be dying at alarming rates. I give it ten more years.
  15. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Where is the scientific proof of this? For all you know he was brewing something that coincided with the shots. There is no medical proof of your assertion and going about frightening new parents...karma baby.
  16. cowboyanon2 Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    bbj.. i understand your passion.. but it is definitely possible that her kid got a bad sample of the vaccine which caused the condition... and if that happened to my kid.. i would be anti-vaccine too...

    but on the whole.. i think u are right.. in general far safer to get vaccinated...
  17. cubby Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    careful, i'm starting to like you
  18. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Fuck that shit don't go there...do..not...want...brb fap

    Cowboy anything is possible..are there children with the odd reactions to vaccines, I am sure there are. But let me tell you this...I travel extensively and I have had Dengue fever and lived to brag about it. It was the most miserable experience of my life. There is no vaccine. Countless people die from this each year, there is a hemorrhagic version too. Do you think that I don't go bare my ass for each available shot prior to traveling? Fuck yeah. My uncle died...didn't get his shot before that trip to Africa, didn't believe in them....simple safari vacation turned into a trip home in a coffin. We take these illnesses for granted now days because we have not had to watch child after child after child die...but those days are coming again...because we have been so privileged as to have "choice".

    Bet the anti vaccine people will start shitting their pants when unvaccinated Junior decides he wants to join the Peace Corp and work in a third world country. Parents do not realize that they are limiting and endangering the lives of their children long after they stop being children.
  19. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure


    It's ironic that you are criticizing Travolta for following his herd, when in reality that's all you're doing. I prefer to not be a sheep and to think for myself and make decisions for my family based on carefully weighing the risks and the benefits including our medical histories and our risk factors. You don't have to agree or approve...just keep on vaccinating your kids and don't worry about mine. I'm not telling anyone not to vaccinate their kids. You attacked parents who don't make the same decision you made (which in actuality, chances are, you didn't make a decision along, you just followed your herd).

    Again, you mentioned THE GENE for autism, so it should be easy to tell us all which gene it is.

    And yes, I know how HERD (baa) immunity works. Sorry if I'm not willing to allow my child to be collateral damage so that your child doesn't get sick.

    Oh and there is no autism on either side of my family.

    There must be in your family, however. I have never met anyone with so little empathy. My autistic child has been able to learn empathy...so maybe there is hope for you. How would you feel if I wished autism on you simply because you didn't agree with me? Why on earth would you wish harm on ANY child? That proves that you don't really care about children...you just care about being right.
  20. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    I'm glad that you researched it and did not take the decision lightly. In my experience there aren't too many easy decisions regarding one's children.
  21. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    It is not my purpose to frighten anyone. You gave your black/white opinion about parents who do not vaccinate their children and I wanted to show that there are gray areas and there are legitimate reasons to not vaccinate.

    I'm old enough to remember when there was no "specific scientic proof" that smoking caused cancer. Eventually the proof came out. It didn't make all those people who died any less dead though, did it?

    Just because there is not enough evidence to convince you that there is a risk of autism as a result of vaccines, does not mean that this risk doesn't exist.
  22. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Dallas mom you have so little understanding of how immunity works and have clearly not done your homework. The only reason you feel your child is safe is because other people vaccinate their children. Don't you understand how impossibly stupid and contradictory that sounds? When people get into panic mode over their children there is no educating or talking to them. You are choosing to handicap your child for life because of your irrational fear. Your child will never be safe outside of this country, never be able to travel or enjoy life without depending upon OTHER vaccinated persons. Study risk management, get off the fucking anti vaccine message boards, and go look at some photos of people who are not fortunate enough to depend upon the intelligence of other people to keep their own kids healthy.

    Do your homework, LOOK IT UP, DNA/Aspergers...the studies are there.
  23. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Just to clarify, I'm not anti-vaccine. I think there are too many vaccines given too soon. I am for parents making an informed decision and feel that vaccines should be spaced out and some should not be given until much, much later. I don't know about where the rest of your kids were born, but at the hospital where my son was born, there was no orgy in the newborn nursery and nobody was sharing needles, so I'm not sure why he needed to be vaccinated for a sexually transmitted disease at birth.
  24. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    LOL you are working to frighten people, you do it all over the Internet I bet. Passing your panic along, that means more people are butt puckering, more and more people will refuse vaccinations, herd immunity will decrease and your kid will be at greater risk of DYING from an easily preventable disease. YOUR CHILD is going to be eternally landlocked into a safe herd because of your choices. And when that herd decreases due to your fear mongering, it will be YOUR child that suffers.

    And believe it or not there are as many studies that show smoking is good for you...google it. LOL bet that will surprise you. Google Alzhiemers/parkinsons nicotine...there are many disorders smoking helps including suppressing hypothyroidism. (I am talking actual medical studies in journals, not a bunch of butt puckering housewives clenching their cheeks over something and groaning together about it on the Internet.)

    The subject of this thread was religious exemptions and the harm it does to children who have no choice in the matter and how those religious exemptions need to just fucking stop because it endangers children who have no choice. Just as you have taken the future of your child and puckered up your butt, and decided that child can never leave the safe herd, never travel outside, never go anywhere but where you have already decided he/she can do...because YOU are afraid.

    And no, I have no fucking empathy for STUPID.
  25. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    I don't post on anti vaccine boards.

    I also don't feel my child is safe. Have you not read anything I've posted here? Have I not made that clear that I know there are risks involved in my decision...no matter which decision I made?

    You claim I am handicapping my child for life because I'm not vaccinating him? Actually, I handicapped my child for life when I allowed him to be vaccinated. He will live with autism his entire life.

    How about you do your homework. The studies are there to support an autism/vaccination link as well. However, the fact remains that no matter how vehemently you state it, there has been NO GENE singled out and/or identified in autism. If there had been, it would be very simple to diagnose via DNA analysis and no such puppy exists.
  26. MomE2Dallas Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Well that explains everything.
  27. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    you haven't looked at a thing

    "A lesser known theory is that Asperger's and related syndromes may, in part, perpetuate genetic traits which were once highly advantageous to survival. One of the most notable characteristics of many people with Asperger's is that even very young children display a prodigious and often eidetic (photographic) memory, with the ability to precisely recall very large amounts of music, dialogue and speech after even a single hearing......In September 2004, Marc-Antoine Alexandre Bourget has published his master thesis at UQAM showing that 29% of autistics have a mitochondrial DNA anomaly that allowed him to formulate his hypothesis of a mitochondrial neanderthal Eve that six genetic markers dated circa 27000 BC. While his hypothesis is considered controversial, it could explain the origin of autism by hybridation of neanderthal characteristics in homo sapiens lineage. That would explain the crossing over and inprinting in Prader-Willi Syndrome. However, the hypothesis that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens interbred is itself controversial, with some researchers claiming that their recent DNA studies show that the two species never interbred."

    " NEWSWEEK: Describe Autism Speaks.
    Alison Singer: Autism Speaks is an amazing organization. It has really been a privilege for me to work there. Autism Speaks has raised so much awareness of autism and has supported literally thousands of families around the world. I could not be more proud of Autism Speaks and the work that we've done.

    But you disagree with their vaccine position?
    In general, I disagree with a policy that says, "Despite what this study shows, more studies should be done." At some point, you have to say, "This question has been asked and answered and it's time to move on." We need to be able to say, "Yes, we are now satisfied that the earth is round."

    then there is this
    The Neanderthal theory of autism, Asperger and ADHD


    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Little glitches in the DNA of people with autism suggest that the disease might be caused by as many as 100 different genes, researchers reported on Thursday.

    The study is one of several new reports on autism in recent months, which have shown the disease is far more common and more complex than many experts had believed.

    "These findings certainly complicate the search for genes contributing to autism. These are rare changes, dispersed across the genome, and they tell us that autism may be the final common path for many different genetic abnormalities," said Dr. Thomas Insel, director of the National Institute for Mental Health, which helped fund the study.

    The small changes are not what people usually think of as genetic mutations but are called copy number variations -- extra copies or missing stretches of DNA. For instance, one child with Asperger syndrome was missing DNA from a stretch of 27 genes.

    vaccines do Not cause missing DNA.
  28. Jettlag Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Heck my vet accommodated my request to break our dogs shots down over a few visits and a titration test or two. And my kids' shots were postponed if they had even one unexplained sniffle or I felt that were the slightest bit 'off'. So, I relate to the vigilance.

    Sometimes it does feel like there are more hard decisions than easy ones with our kids.

    I went back and read your first post here to see where you are coming from. Although we disagree on the vax, I'm so glad you're fighting the good fight in terms of your son and he is thriving.

    I cannot stand what this cult has done to stigmatize special needs kids/adults and the thought that may have prevented some kids from getting the right treatments. Knew about them, their beliefs and tactics years ago but had to take care of my own biz fighting the good fight - and then this poor Travolta kid.
  29. nightfire Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    WOW! Vaccines work just as well when given to adults as they do children, and there is less incidence of complications. I get the passion, I do! But I'm not talking about conspiracy theories. And I'm sorry but there are not albumin-free versions of some vaccinations (no matter how hard I have looked!!!)

    But herd immunity!!!!! (ironic much?)

    I also work in the medical field and LOVE Vaccines (as I stated before)
    I just have looked at all the research and taken in to consideration ALL of the variables present. And I made the INFORMED, MEDICALLY SOUND decision to delay SOME vaccinations for my children. (yes I am now admitting to having kids)
    I Choose to give ONE combination vaccine at a time (sometimes meaning 2 office visits a month)
    Not because I don't believe in vaccines, and all the good that they do, but because there are studies out there that are showing an increase in complications post vaccination when more then one combination vaccine is given at a time, and I would like to avoid those while giving my kids what they need.

    I suppose I belong in jail for caring about my kids enough to look at BOTH SIDES of the argument, looking at all the evidence, and the possible motivations for the opinions given.

    There is an ever increasing number of Doctors calling for a review of the immunization schedule. The incidence and severity of complications is rising according to the research.
    Also FYI that Schedule ASSUMES that the child will be artificially fed and be cared for by a daycare facility. So in my case it just doesn't make sense to follow it. My kids were nursed until they self weened (Hello biologically based immunity), and have never set foot in a dare care in their lives. When it comes to medicine one size just isn't going to fit all.

    Another thing you might not know. More children die in the USA from FORMULA and it's use then from not being vaccinated. [sarcasm] So maybe you should go put formula parents in jail for risking their kids health and lives....[/sarcasm]

    (I believe MOST parents do their best to provide for their kids, and keep them healthy, and that the person who is ultimately responsible for the kids should be the one making the informed decisions)
  30. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    I do not believe that "most" parents do their best, I believe that parents approach raising their children with a strong ingrained set of fears, habits, (you know, that stuff they carry over from childhood), religion, whatever...and the poor kids get the brunt of it, I know I did.

    Parents murder, abuse, fold, spindle, and mutilate their children in this country every single day of the year, they deny them proper education, medical care, love and attention. Adults always have a choice, always, but a child is the victim of the adult, always. I think that there should be a test prior to being permitted to spawn, and many should be forcefully neutered (such as the idiot who just had 8 babies making the grand total under age 8, 14.) I know in a perfect world only worthy people would be able to spawn, children would be protected from all evil, including their parents, and cute furry kittens and puppies would....it's not a perfect world it is an evil world, and while I am sure there are many victims, the largest class of victim is the child, and the perpetrator is most always a parent or other adult. Maybe we should just outlaw adults.

    I don't have any issues with arranging vaccine schedules, as long as the child is given the benefits of being vaccinated, I think breast is best, always, and tits are for sucking, period. But please cut the four year old hanging from the tit off, please...or maybe not.
  31. Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    This is the Oregon law, but it would not have helped Jett, as it only applies to kids 14 and under

    (a) If the conviction is for manslaughter in the second
    degree:
    (A) That the defendant is the mother or father of the victim;
    (B) That the death of the victim was the result of an injury or
    illness that was not caused by the defendant;
    (C) That the defendant treated the injury or illness solely by
    spiritual treatment in accordance with the religious beliefs or
    practices of the defendant and based on a good faith belief that
    spiritual treatment would bring about the victim's recovery from
    the injury or illness;
    (D) That no other person previously under the defendant's care
    has died or sustained significant physical injury as a result of
    or despite the use of spiritual treatment, regardless of whether
    the spiritual treatment was used alone or in conjunction with
    medical care;
  32. nightfire Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Ummm Just a note NO CHILD could be fully immunized for HiB by 7 months... It is the professional opinion of the RN that I work with that a 7 month old baby who dies of Hib, would mostly likely have died even if they had received the initial vaccines, and would have been more likely to have a very serious reaction, and possible death from the vaccine.

    Now there is an Interesting thing happening in a city of Alaska. The population of this 33,000 person town is over 80% fully vaccinated according to the medical records. Now this town has had a HUGE outbreak of whooping cough. It has been raging for over a year. EVERYONE is getting the disease, vaccinated, unvaccinated it is making NO DIFFERENCE. Now according to herd immunity this should not be happening. This town is nicely isolated, and the Epidemiologists are going NUTS with this. NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN IT, the experts are baffled...
    Could you please explain this to me (even though the CDC can't)

    Vaccines aren't 100% they are NOT a absolute get of of sickness free card. They are a TOOL, that need to be used in an informed manner.

    Also if you are so Pro-vaccine and ALL vaccines are GOOD... Why not get the small pox vaccine... give it to your kids... I mean small pox still exists! there are cases EVERY Year, more and more of them each year...

    (you are clearly letting your personal history and bias condemn all parents for the sins of a few. I'm sorry for what you must have experienced, but child abuse ISN'T NORMAL)
  33. XenuAlia Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    MomE2Dallas is guilty of logical fallacy Post Hoc ergo Propter hoc.

    To wit: MomE2's kid shows autism shortly after getting a vaccine, therefore MomE2 ASSUMES the vaccine is the CAUSE. Does not wonder if the timing is coincidental.

    But before the vaccine can be proven as the cause, there must be no other possible explanation.

    Such as...
    1. improved diagnostic methods
    2. deeper understanding of the disorder's manifestations
    3. complex interaction of various genes
    4. other environmetal influence, such as arsenic leeching out of old playground material (yes aresenic has been tested as leeching out of old wood used for benches, decks, etc)

    or
    5. combination of 3 and 4.

    Further, there are several causes of brain swelling.... just assuming the vaccine did it seems a bit premature... it could have been something as simple as aspirin.
    Causes of Brain swelling - WrongDiagnosis.com

    tl;dr
    Dox or GTFO

    as for the rest of the whole pro-vac vs anti-vac...
    I'll just leave these here.

    An unvaccinated child has died from a preventable disease

    Every Outbreak has a Silver Lining


    Now can we please please go back to how the ALREADY OBVIOUSLY ILL children, (like Jett was), are being denied medical care thanks to religiously motivated fuckery?
  34. Lednir Member

    Re: Faith Over Medicine: Praying for a Cure

    Abstracts: 'Pertussis vaccine encephalopathy': it is time to recognize it as the myth that it is. Risk of seizures and encephalopathy after immunization with the diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine

    It's a bit late, but I'll just leave this here.

    Also the increase in numbers of people diagnosed with autism, which correlates with increased number of vaccinations, is generally considered most likely to be due to a broader spectrum of diagnosis of autism. Not to be rude, but MomE2Dallas seems to be reacting in a similar way to those who claim that "ritalin killed their baby" and so forth.

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