France: Scientology appeal trial Nov. 3 - Dec. 1, 2011

Discussion in 'Media' started by mnql1, May 9, 2011.

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  1. AnonLover Member

  2. AnonLover Member

  3. Albion Member

    I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of plaintiffs in the Paris case: the National Council of the Order of Pharmacists did not look like they were in the mood to back off in the original trial and that won't change on appeal.
    Perhaps more worrying is the claim that the case has gone past the statue of limitations and so should never have come to trial: they have made at least one case go away on these grounds in the past (as reported here way back when: the case was eventually thrown out just a few years ago). One can't help wondering though, why this issue wasn't raised earlier, however.
    So far as the questions of constitutionality raised are concerned, it's difficult to judge without knowing the specifics.
    Scientology has, as always, hired some of France's top lawyers to defend it. Olivier Morice, the lawyer for one of the plaintiffs at the original trial and France's counter-cult group UNADFI, and Olivier Saumon for the pharmacists faced an impressive battery of lawyers and their assistants for the defence.
    As impressive as they are however, I'm sceptical that Scientology's lawyers can get the convictions overturned. And even if they do, given the political firestorm that is likely to generate, it may prove to have been more than trouble than it was worth.
    For my analysis of the original trial judgement, see here:
    For a summary of the convictions themseleves, see here:

    Jonny Jacobsen
    Infinite Complacency
    • Like Like x 7
  4. Ann O'Nymous Member

    The prosecution had two legs and lost one. The inclusion of UNADFI as a substition plaintiff at this stage might not end well. But the remaining leg is strong, IMHO.
    • Like Like x 1
  5. mnql1 Member

    • Like Like x 5
  6. AnonLover Member

  7. How can the victims in a case of criminal conspiracy be bought off with financial settlements?

    Surely in a criminal case, it is the state which brings the case, and not the individuals?
  8. TinyDancer Member

    • Like Like x 6
  9. Albion Member

    This piece from the Nouvel Observateur website - but sourced to
    Associated Press -- gives slightly more detail about a least one
    of the the constitutional grounds for one of their appeals: the
    argument is that the offences for which they were convicted did not
    actually exist at the time the events in question took place (between
    1997 and 1999). In fact, there are five objections (or four according
    to another report) questioning the constitutionality of the original
    convictions, now lodged with the court. The court is due to give its
    ruling on Tuesday at 9:00 am (0800 GMT).
  10. mnql1 Member

    This article is translated in an earlier post in this thread:
    • Like Like x 2
  11. total is actually 600 000 euros for the 2 bookstores

    and personnal fines from 30 000 euros for the cformer celebrity manager then from 15000 euiros to 1500 euros and suspended jail time from 24 months to 14 months
  12. hey hey nothing is done yet wait and see it will takes a few weeks more and then in 2012 before springtime we will know how justice will be
  13. the penguin is just a clown who runs for nothing
    but a big stone in scientology's shoe
    • Like Like x 1
  14. nothing new for the moment but they can try ...
  15. Sponge Member


    Paris Court Rejects Effort by Scientology Church
    Associated Press 8th Nov 2011
    ...and 80+ other links carrying this AP report.
    French court says Scientology appeal can go ahead
    (AFP) Agence France-Presse November 8, 2011
    See next posts by Albion and mnql1 for later, detailed update
    • Like Like x 6
  16. jensting Member

    This makes me happy :)

    Best Regards


    PS: Thanks for the excellent translation efforts, everyone, it's appreciated
  17. Albion Member

    Not so fast: the defence lawyers have resubmitted two of the QPCs (Priority
    Questions of Constitutionality) that the court had just rejected and, filed a new
    one. The leading appeal court judge did not seem particularly pleased at
    this moves, but nevertheless adjourned until Thursday morning to deliver the court's
    ruling on these latest defence submissions.
    In dismissing the first five put to the court last week, I distinctly heard the phrase
    dépourvu de caractère serieux in relation to at least one of them: which suggests
    she thinks they are taking the mickey.
    Certainly that was the view of Olivier Morice for the counter-cult group UNADFI
    in his response to the fresh defence motions.
    Jonny Jacobsen
    Infinite Complacency
    • Like Like x 6
  18. Sponge Member

    ^Why am I not surprised?

    Thanks Jonny for the speedy update.
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Random guy Member

    Well, seems the cult isn't going to slide out of this one that easily.
  20. mnql1 Member

    Translation of a French article posted on Nov. 8, 2011 on the website of weekly news magazine Le nouvel Observateur:
    Scientologie: cinq QPC rejetées par la cour d'appel de Paris, la défense en présente une nouvelle
    • Like Like x 5
  21. Anonymous Member

    It can also be construed as a subtle way to say that she thinks they are clowns wasting the court's time. Subtle difference, but the point gets across nonetheless.
  22. RightOn Member

    "the group's Paris branch on charges of fleecing vulnerable followers"
    love this sentence a whole bunch
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Albion Member

    Even if a plaintiff accepts a settlement and pulls out of the case, the material already submitted
    relating to their original complaint remains on the record and usable by the court -- as it did in the
    case of at least one former plaintiff in this case and several in the Marseille and Lyon cases.
    • Like Like x 6
  24. Albion Member

    I'll grant you that "taking the mickey" is not a generally accepted legal term. :)
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Sponge Member

    I'd wondered about that when mnql1 first mentioned it in the thread about the plaintiff pulling out ( )
    Thanks for clarifying.

    Also, in the latest AP report that mnql1 posted above I noticed that it was a question of "form" as to why some of those priority questions of constitutionality filings were rejected. That kinda feels like bad news because if the cult's lawyers resubmitted them then, assuming they indeed fixed what they were expected to fix, and assuming that there were no other issues with those filings, then....???
  26. AnonLover Member

    Dear mnql1 & Albion,
    have I mentioned lately my <3 for U knows no bounds!!!!


    Thx for all the extra details! <3 <3 <3 !!!
    • Like Like x 4
  27. mnql1 Member

    Translation of a French article posted on Nov. 8, 2011 on the website of Le Figaro:
    Scientologie : la défense retarde les débats
    • Like Like x 2
  28. rEVOLution Member

    These guys are smart. The French juridical system has one huge flaw, it is incredibly slow.
    I guess, to an american organization, the defense that makes most sense is to delay the trial and hope for something to happen.
    The worst thing is that it could work because it has worked before. Delaying stuff in France is the administrative way to kill it.
    It's okay. Anonymous knows where they live.
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Anonymous Member

    This is maybe a dumb question and I need to lurk more, but what specifically were the actions of CoS France that got them convicted of fraud in the first place? False medical claims? Playing a little too fast and loose with the account balancing?

    All the news reports I ever read on this issue just said "Scientology convicted of fraud, made to pay big fine," but never really went into details on why.
  30. rEVOLution Member

    They're accused of organized fraud and illegal practice of pharmacy.
    Some guy will be able to be more specific, but there's substantial proof that they are prescribing drugs to their adepts without being doctors.
    Thank Xenu, we have excellent laws to prevent illegal practice of pharmacy. (Basically, if you CLAIM to heal somebody, then in the eyes of the law you are doing medecine. So they are in deep shit)

    For the organized fraud part, they are simply taking money from people, prescribing meds they don't have the right to prescribe and pretend the effects were spiritual elevation or something.
    That's enough for a french court, we don't look too kindly on sects.
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Anonymous Member

    Jonny Jacobsen has great coverage over at his blog Infinite Complacency.
    Here is his introductory post
    Scroll down the right column of his blog for other posts under 'The Paris Trial.'
  32. Anonymous Member

  33. Sponge Member

    Try Belgium. There's a case from 1997 involving 12 scientologists for fraud, extortion, illegal practice of medicine, infringements of trade practice etc, that hasn't even started yet (and probably never will).
  34. AquaMan Member

    Unsurprisingly, the first comment to the Nov 8 WaPo story is a Scilon shill...

    (Haven't looked at the other links, don't have all week. :p )

  36. ANON74 Member

  37. Sponge Member

    • Like Like x 1
  38. Sponge Member

    Appeal Day #4

    No newsmedia yet but we have some local Twitter activity from this morning.!/jpdeniau
    They must have a huge top hat with endless supply of rabbits.

    ^I assume he's still tweeting about the scientology case and their defense lawyers.

    Oooo, Bun fights?

    Ya riiight, I bet they are soooo regretful that they aren't back on trial yet. /rolleyes/
    • Like Like x 2
  39. DeathHamster Member

    What else is new? In Canada, they actually tried to appeal on the grounds that it was unfair that juries of a Canadian court had to be Canadian citizens.
    • Like Like x 2
  40. DeathHamster Member

    Timeline of Scientology stuff in France:
    • Like Like x 9
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