Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by YtheSoHIGHprice, Jul 26, 2012.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Supply and demand are (generally) the biggest, underlying, factors in pricing - however sentiment and speculation can also create big price movements.

    People have sat and tried to develop alternate fuel sources, in doing so they have developed solar pannels, wind turbines, water turbines, bio-diesel fuels etc...

    The problem is these things do not produce nearly enough power to meet current demand. Development also takes time and more importantly - money. So creating something that is cheap is almost immediately made impossible.

    Any country would dream of becoming self sufficient when it comes to energy. If they could do it, they would.
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    From what I understood of the whole Ethanol debacle: Ethanol was, in fact, not the new oil. (I tried to find the Cane video of the main dude saying that... Guess it never made it on Youtube :( ) Mostly because of the fact Ethanol ate through rubbers and plastics inside small engines like Kristy Alley eats through cake.

    Now, in the grand state of shit and nothing Iowa, they were trying to bank on this heavily before I got the hell away from that black hole. That is because the Gov was subsidizing most of this shit. (Before you blame OhBumA, this was during Curious George Dubbya's regime. Obama was still in Chicago or was fighting for the Demo. candidacy at the time). So they were taking a whole fuckton of monies from the gov to make this shit...

    ...then it bottomed out. LULZ!!! Couldn't happen to a nicer shithole... Well... Maybe Montana...

    Now Iowa has fucktons of ethanol that has to be put in the gas mix because it "makes it burn cleaner", however most don't want to use it because it does internal damage to small engines. Not to mention what the hell it does to car/truck/semi engines.

    So I am almost positive that Adhoc can agree the whole "Government funding the Ethanol production/development" was a bad experiment and a worse idea. Although I am sure they meant well (hard to say that with a straight face), it is obvious that nobody did the homework and acted before they thought.
  3. adhocrat Member

    Before 1973, we didn't see these variations in the price of oil and gas. After OPEC and the cartel in oil, now we see large variations in the price of oil. The speculators are reacting to the political turmoil, not creating it.

    As for an alternative fuel, that is the holy grail. If you come up with a better way to pack power into a small space, you'll become the richest person on earth. See the fictional Shipstones in Robert Heinlein's later novels to see what a truly modern power supply would be, with sunlight being the power source.
    That would be cool.
    It's also science fiction.
    For the foreseeable future, we will be using gasoline. The energy density makes it the most practical means of powering our vehicles. Unfortunately, nothing else comes close. Burning oil is not smart, yet we're stuck with this model for the near future.
    OTH, Rockefeller did save the whales, so at least oil did some good. (I just had to throw that in for the progressives. Gotta give them something to chew on)
  4. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    There is little doubt and 0 room for debate OPEC is the culprits behind the major swings in prices.

    However, my thought about alt fuel for cars/trucks/semis is that there has to be some chemical that can be synthesized that could do the same thing as gas. I am sure that somebody, somewhere (not in the US... The US is dead last in the sciences...and math.... and technology....and...) could find a chemical compound that would be the next gas.

    Yeah, I know that it could take a long period of time to find and longer to synthesize to meet the demand. However, I have enough faith in human ingenuity to believe it is at least possible.
  5. adhocrat Member

    We can hope
    But i don't see our ranking as of any importance, It is the freedom to innovate that matters. Edison, just to pull a name out a hat, had 3 months of formal school. But he had the freedom to try and innovate and not have some government bureaucrat tell him no. Now we have rules and regulations and what isn't allowed is forbidden. That is not a good space from which to innovate.
  6. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    Hence why you are right.

    Take Einstein. Dude couldn't do math. He worked at a patent office. Yet he was able to blow a new one in the way science and the understanding of the universe was seen.

    Nowatdays, you can't make anything without going through mountains of bureaucracy only to get sued by a group of patent trolls who may have had a piece of paper that may have had the same thing on it but is really their jizz stain. Now who's at fault for letting this happen? (Hint: You are right - The Government).

    The problem with the ranking is this very simple fact: The US would rather consume than create. When kids in schools care less about education and more about bullshit like sports. Who idolize one hit wonder singers and boozin' 'roiding sport stars. Who think the Pyramids in Egypt were made after the founding of the US. I find it difficult to see anything coming out of the school systems... For that I agree the Gov is useless here.
  7. adhocrat Member

    Einstein asked for help with tensor calculus. Which means he already understood regular calculus. So Einstein did indeed understand far more math than you or I do.

    Delphi schools teach scientology children how to be good scientologists. Public schools teach children how to be good citizens. In neither case does thinking enter the equation. Both indoctrinate children into the ruling paradigm. That makes it harder for the people to even see that there is a ruling paradigm. It's the fish in water problem.

    The other day people put up a billboard in Colorado comparing Obama to the Aurora killer. The fact that the billboard was factual accurate never entered into the thinking. Everyone was outraged that Obama was being compared to a murderer, even though Obama has indeed murdered far more people than shooter did.

    So we have a man who kills people on his whim, but people are outraged when you actually state this undeniable fact.

    That is scary. That is what indoctrination does, it renders us incapable of even seeing the issues, much less discussing them.
  8. adhocrat Member

    tl;dr We are eating our seed corn.

    You've nailed it.

    But ask yourself what changed. Why are we like that now? An economist will always look at the incentives. What incentives does the society provide that leads us to consume more than produce? What factors make it even possible to consume more than you produce? (Hint: fiat currency, the FED) That shouldn't even be possible for any length of time.

    And on a gold based (or money based) society, it would be impossible. Economics is called the Dismal Science because it tells us we have limits that cannot be flouted without destroying the economy itself.
    Politicians want to promise the moon and stars, and having economist saying "Sorry, not possible" is not what a politician wants to hear, hence their love of Keynes, who is a magician, not an economist.

    Gravity if immediately self enforcing, so we have no doubt we have to obey it. Economic retribution can take decades, hence is very hard to see and counter. We are coming up to the end game as far as our fiat currency goes. Unless some incredible new invention comes along (such as that new fuel we were discussing) then the government is running out of money to loot.

    And the thing is, everything will be fine until it isn't. One day the Social Security checks won't show up in the mail box. That's how people will learn their economy has died.
  9. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    I cannot imagine what would happen that day. The likely way things would go: Conservatives (like my future-in-laws) would start blaming liberals. Democrats would blame Republicans would blame Democrats blame ad nausea infinitum.

    All the while: Nobody comes up with a solution and any solution gets stonewalled by [Republican/Democratic] Party for some dumb ass reason. Meanwhile people starve, get evicted, lose their cars/trucks, lose health care... all the while blaming the [Republicans/Democrats] saying [insert same dumb ass reason here].

    So, most of the reason the US is in this mess is because people want to cling onto obsolete political ideologies like they do a religious belief. As long as that stays root: No effective solutions will get out the door.

    So what does this have to do with fuel? As long as this fractured and obsolete political system tries to both profit on oil and interfere with education, then no progress can be made and other countries will beat the US in things like medicine, science, and engineering.
  10. adhocrat Member

    SO what's the best way to learn a foreign language? I'm thinking Spanish, since it's the easiest to learn.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator


    A foreign language? Spanish? Lost me there, mate...

    Learn Chinese or Japanese. Better jobs there.
  12. adhocrat Member

    I'm just saying when the money runs out and the givernment stops sending checks, the best place to be is far away from the madness. Spanish is much easier to learn than Cantonese and Latin America much easier to reach than China or Japan.
  13. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    That is true. I suggest getting as much Latin American currency now so when the US dollar bottoms out, you'll be a rich Mofo in Mexico.

    Meanwhile, I'll be chillin' in Tokyo with my personal Robotank.
  14. adhocrat Member

    And no matter where we are we can continue to chat in this anarchy called the internet.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    If that tank (Yes: They actually do make and sell those... for a whopping $1.35 Million) has net access, then why would I want to leave it?

    I figure if I convert $20 to yen, by the time the US economy dies, I'll be holding enough yen to buy one.
  16. adhocrat Member

    I have a yen for silver and gold.
    that money never grows old. ;)
  17. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    Too broke for that :(
  18. adhocrat Member

    Ain't that the truth. And that was the plan all along. Get rid of value, substitute the map for the territory (replace gold with paper) and boy howdy, it's party time for the parasites.
  19. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    More like: My boss is a crook trying to suck the tits of a politician (its a woman... if she was a dude, he'd suck dick) running for office to get out of a legal bind brought on by the Department of Labor...

    ...However, that will not end well since Sarah "Retard" Failin' Palin endorsed her. The kiss of death.

    Meanwhile he can fuck over everybody while he runs the place into the ground.

    I've engaged GTFO Mode... because if the Feds came here, it'd be game over.
  20. elwood Member

    Thousands of people, companies, DARPA, DOE and research labs are working on exactly that. The problem is that no form of alternative energy can compete economically with oil that costs less than $150/ barrel. In fact, a production cost (never mind transportation, storage and all the other cost, plus taxes) of less than $3/gallon for any bio-fuel or other synthetic is considered good. Several of the major oil companies are investors in bio-fuels companies as well. It's all about the money, folks. Even yours. Are you willing to pay $6/gallon for bio-fuel so you can feel good about yourself? TANSTAAFL.
  21. anon walker Moderator


    50 MPG.
    • Funny Funny x 1
  22. Anonymous Member

    That's when the rebellion will really kick in. I wonder how many barrels of oil Romney would produce if we juiced him?
  23. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    Maybe I have too much faith in humanity or in human ingenuity.

    Problem is: When (not if) oil runs out, then what? Petroleum is used from everything from medicine to engineering, not just driving. Oil isn't in infinite supply and there is only so much you can get without it being cost/environmentally/safety restrictive.

    Eventually, whether by choice or by force (ie: There is none left), humanity is going to have to find a substitute for oil. There is little doubt you are correct, but ultimately a finite source will run out. If humanity can't find an alternative before then, we are fucked.
  24. Random guy Member

    Luckily there's no shortage of oil as such, just shortage of easily accessible oil. As more and more has to be produced from shales and little accessible places on the globe, the price will rise. Rising prices will stimulate the search for alternatives. I'm generally not a big believer in the ability of capitalism to fix problems on its own, but in this case I think it will.
  25. anonymous612 Member

    Dude, OP, buy a bike or a hybrid and shut the fuck up already.

    Seriously, how fucking head in the clouds do you have to be think that anyone's going to boycott GASOLINE?
    • Winner Winner x 2
  26. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    Reminds me of the time when people tried to boycott CDs because they wanted to hurt the music industry.

    I don't have to say how epic fail that was or how fail boycotting gas is.


    Still, oil isn't an infinite resource. It will eventually run out even in hard to reach places. So, hopefully before then, we'll have a better alternative.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Random guy Member

    Fuels shouldn't be a problem, there are already working alternatives. There's more a question of replacing a well built out infrastructure with a new one. I'm more concerned for medicine and stuff where replacement might be a bit more fickle.
  28. FreeSaxon Member

    Petrol (GASOLINE) was boycotted over here in Britain during the Fuel protests of 2000, 2005 /7
    Well it was more of a blockade of the refineries but it had popular support.
    The 2000 leader of the campaign was `bought out' with a good semi political post in
    The cost of petrol here £6.00 ( $9.48 ) per gallon.

    Well Gary anything to say ?
  29. anonymous612 Member

    You're still a fucking idiot if you think anyone is going to willingly refrain from using gasoline because of some fucking idiot on the internet told them to.
  30. Anonymous Member

    Hi FreeSaxon. My name is Gary. I have a lot to say. But frankly, it seems that anything I say to you, FreeSaxon, will create more confusion. Is that your objective? Or are you simply confused yourself?

  31. elwood Member

    W and his Dad were oil men, but they didn't control the price of oil. Oil prices are based on international demand. You might also look at the taxes on a gallon of gas. In California the tax alone is twice what we were paying per gallon in the 70's.
  32. Anonymous Member

  33. Random guy Member

    When I was looking for a place to live, the prime factor was living close enough to work to be able to walk or take a tram. It payed off.
  34. adhocrat Member

    IOW, government regs are behind the spike in price. Without the 'special blends' mandated by the government, we could get gas from other places. But since that isn't allowed, the supply goes down, which means prices go up.
    Odd how economic law always operates, even when government tries to say otherwise.
  35. Anonymous Member

  36. Anonymous Member

    • Funny Funny x 1
  37. Honigdachs Member

    we're all gonna die.
  38. Anonymous Member

    well sure, eventually
  39. Zoom Member

  40. MochaKush Member

    hmm... wonder what dropping out of military action in other countries would do to change gas prices... How much do we spend on each soldier a day?
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