"Have you read Dianetics?"

Discussion in 'Projects' started by Mouseyhair, Mar 29, 2008.

  1. Mouseyhair Member

    "Have you read Dianetics?"

    This came up earlier, and I noticed it's posed a bit of a problem in some cities: a scilon comes out, holds up a copy of Dianetics, and proceeds to ask if anyone protesting has even bothered to read it. Silence ensues and anon attempt to come up with a decent excuse, while the scilon just grins, saying we should read it before we judge.

    If this happens, we're pretty much fucked no matter what we say, because the discussion will be solely about Dianetics - regardless of whether or not anyone's actually read it. Remember: scilons receive extensive training in discussing their doctrine and making the other party sound bad. We'll be defending instead of attacking, which we are definitely not yet accustomed to - plus, even if you've read the book, you can be sure the scilon has read it a thousand times more.

    So, for the purpose of not looking like complete idiots, here are some things you can tell them instead. Remember to be absolutely open an honest about whether or not you've read it; we're not there to lie or to look smart, just to expose the facts.

    1. We are not here to criticize your beliefs or the content of your books. We're here to stop Scientology's crimes. You are free to read and believe whatever you wish.
    2. We are not protesting your religion. We're protesting child labor, kidnapping, government infiltration, and murder committed in the name of Scientology.
    3. We are not trying to convert you. We just want you to know the facts. You, however, are trying to convert us. Where are your facts?

    And if they still insist on discussion the content, instead of the context:
    1. Did you know L. Ron Hubbard tortured his wife in scientific experiments, and violently ruptured one of her Eustachian tubes?
    2. Did you know OT3, which was also written by Hubbard as Scientology doctrine, is completely about aliens and UFOs?
    3. Did you know OT7 commands you to go talk to a tree? Is that really what you want to spend your life paying for?
    4. We are here because we want to. Do you get rewarded for being here? Will you get punished if you should walk away right now?
    5. David Miscavige is squirreling tech. Do you realize the book you're holding may be the only thing left that hasn't been squirreled?

    Chances are they'll still manage to guide the discussion exactly the way they want it to go, but it should help to have a few basic arguments ready. Also remember: individual members are never our enemy - they're the ones we're trying to help.
  2. Anon32167 Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    QFT - ppl need to have this at the ready.

    Also, be aware that they will probably respond with ad hominem arguments and other logical fallacies (it's what they've been taught - who can blame them?). At that point, tell them you simply aren't going to argue with someone who cannot make reasonable, logical points, cannot provide anything to prove their claims, and cannot have a discussion without resorting to personal affrontery.
  3. Hieronymous Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Ask him if we need to read Dianetics to hate being stalked by private investigators

  4. leech Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    I tried to read it once. After 10 pages my brain went into a :bs:induced coma.
  5. Legione Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Which is precisely what the book is designed to do.

    Most of Hub's fiction was nigh unreadable, he really liked flowery language. Actually making it longer on purpose makes Dianetics the most horrible book known to man kind. Forcing someone to read it should be marked as torture.
  6. Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Also a bit of a fallancy in the whole thing over Dianetics.

    One does not need to read Mein Kampf to know it's a bad thing.
  7. Dubber Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    "If Ron had stopped with Dianetics, we wouldn't be out here!"
  8. leech Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    If L. Con's mother were in the Sea Org, we wouldn't be here. Abort fetuses! Man your battle stations!
  9. bikerchick Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    just reply "yeah, we tried to read it but it's so full of shit it was unbearable!"

    actually, scrub that, your replies are better but remember, they won't let us reply more than 4 words without cutting in.
  10. leech Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    4 words: "Suck my balls Dianetfag"
  11. rasputin Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    you no more need to read Dianetics to criticise the Church of Scientology than you need to be a nuclear physicist to oppose the atom bomb.

    End of.
  12. Peregrine Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    I have read it. I'm just forcing myself through my second reading of it right now actually.

    Yes, yes it IS that bad.
  13. leech Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    PLANT! :flop:

  14. Manumission Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Those are great answers. Too bad the people that need to hear them wont. In all likelihood, the designated bullbaiters will be the only ones who might approach you and they'll be too busy screaming at you about your alleged crimes and calling you a molester of birds and such for you to get a word in edgewise.

    Instead of reading Dianetics you'd be better off training yourself to make CALM your default setting.
  15. Protonymous Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    "Have you read Dianetics?"

    "Have you read OT3[/4/5/6/7/8 as appropriate]?"
  16. thisoldman Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    I only read good books and non-fiction. Dianetics does not fall under either of those categories.
  17. Asiram Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    This needs to be Stickied. Not kidding.

    Also, epic win on understanding that we do not oppose Scientology as a system of beliefs. We are protesting the fact that the church charges people thousands of dollars for the beliefs, and, of course, the numerous crimes committed in the name of $cientology.
  18. leech Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    I share the complete opposite opinion as you.
  19. UnknownEntity Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    We are not protesting against this book called "dianetics". The real issue is scientology's crimes.

    If the founder of an organization that repeatedly violates human rights has written a book, do you must have read the book to criticize the organization's actions?

    If a murderer writes a book, do you have to read the book to be against the murder? WTF?!
  20. amaX Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    i tried to read dianetics 35 years ago when i was in high school.

    i don't think i even made it 10 pages in before my bullshit detector went off.

    i threw it on the kitchen table and told my mom, "it's bullshit. don't bother to read it."

    so, what are those of us who CANNOT read it supposed to say?

    i guess i could say, "MY reactive mind is too strong! MY reactive mind defeated dianetics! bwahahahahahahahaha!"


  21. DeadFace Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?" has it as an audiobook. It's 6 hrs and 47 minutes (of pure HELL I would imagine). You know, some could listen to it in their cars (if they can keep from vomitting while driving) ...

    Personally, I'd be worried on subliminable messages.
  22. Manumission Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    The server at www. audible. com:80 replied with compressed content, even though it was told not to. That server is either misconfigured, or has a bug.

    Until I have some idea of what to do about that I guess its a no go.
  23. waffleman3 Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Has anybody proof-read Dianetics?

    I've read thought the OT writings, and you don't have to go far to find grammatical / spelling errors, if somebody can go though the book with a highlighter and just highlight everything to show Hubbard was an idiot, it might be some kind of counter against the "have you read dianetics" argument.

    However, I think
    "you no more need to read Dianetics to criticize the Church of Scientology than you need to be a nuclear physicist to oppose the atom bomb." is still the best answer
  24. DeadFace Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Maybe ask 'em if they've studied/have a degree in psychiatry, since, you know, they get all critical about psychiatry.
  25. Ironhead Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Been meaning to read it, but I'm afraid it will brainwash me
  26. Enturbulated Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Well, I was "loaned" a new copy (having read most of it in the past) and decided that I would try yet again.

    I promised myself that I would keep going until I found an obvious (for me) error.

    If you don't know history of the "book", it first appeared in Amazing, a S/F periodical in 1950 as a filler because the publisher and Ron were friends and he didn't have the material to fill that issue.

    The first reviews of the "book" by someone who know what the were talking about (like a PhD) said something like "It contained more errors and fewer facts than any book I have ever read."

    OK, so how far did I get?

    The bottom of the first page. You would think that if they were going to go to all the trouble to change the text and make it PC in places, at least they could fix the obvious errors.

    As far as what to say if you haven't read it? (And, please, save yourself the time.)

    "No, I haven't bothered reading the whole thing. But, you know, I don't need to eat an entire 5 pound bag of turds to know it won't taste very good, either."
  27. thisoldman Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Alright, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to get my own copy of Dianetics and proofread it for the scilons, and document how many errors I find. At the protest following my proofreading, when asked if I have read Dianetics, I will respond as such: "Yes, I have read it, and I thought you should know about these grammatical errors I found."
  28. Enturbulated Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    It's not the grammatical errors that matter, it is the FACTUAL errors that make it a worthless waste of paper and other resources needed to print the thing.

    At least they can be burned for energy in a wood stove. It is the best use for Hubbard's books I have ever found.
  29. Laughing Man Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    We need to let them know it's not their beliefs we're against, it's their tactics, the organization as it is now, and the management (Miscabbage especially). We could then point to our FreeZoner allies and notify them that we're not critical of their precious book. Hell, I'm sure most of them don't even KNOW about FreeZone...
  30. Miriam Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    you know, whoever here HAS read dianetics could summarize it for the rest of us, then at least we could be a little more educated : P
  31. Anonabliss Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Why should I read it? I already know I hate it. Im willing to take horsey-boy's advise.
  32. Ironhead Member

  33. Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Q: "Have you read Dianetics ?"
    A: "Yes, the author appeared to have misunderstood some basic English words. Perhaps he should have used a dictionary..."

    Edit: examples include "science", "fact", "mental health" ... etc. etc.
  34. Edges Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    The simple answer is, "No, I haven't. I haven't read the Communist Manifesto either. But I did read something written on a wall once. It said, 'Actions speak louder than words.'"
  35. anony428 Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    I read the whole damn thing years ago. Nothing said on this forum is incorrect.
  36. Voice Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    My dad has a copy that I've been meaning to borrow, though it sounds like I won't even be able to make it through the first chapter. :/ Oh well, I can try I guess.
  37. Peregrine Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Summary of Dianetics for those who have not read it:

    It's a mish mash of psychobabble frequently interspersed with "our scientific testing showed that this worked in 100% of cases" and claims like "Dianetics can cure most diseases and make your eyesight 100% perfect in 100% of cases". The frequent references to "case studies" is supposed to give it some sort of scientific weight with the skeptics.

    About a third of the way through it descends into a rant about how most women have tried to abort their own babies (no, I'm not making this up).

    To summarise what he's trying to say: we have a standard memory bank which is a 100% perfect record of everything we hear and experience. We have another memory bank called the "reactive mind" which stores "engrams" (memories) at moments of "unconsciousness" (actual physical pain or life threatening situations). Our "engrams" can be "restimulated" by hearing certain words or experiencing certain stimuli. Dianetics leads to a "discharge" of these engrams. Oh, and it's the ONLY WAY to get rid of them, any other way is DANGEROUS and could lead to MADNESS! (MADNESS? MADNESS? THIS IS SPARTA!!1!!)

    What's really interesting about Dianetics is how much of a genius Hubbard was at the half truth and creative plagarism. What's *also* really interesting is how much stuff there is in it about his mind control techniques and his obvious interest in hypnosis. A careful reading of dianetics will show you he knew *exactly* what he was up to in building the cult of scientology the way he did, and that Lerma is absolutely correct to say that hypnosis was at the core of what he intended right from the beginning.

    Not intended from the reading, but once you know how the con works you can see it pretty clearly in Dianetics.

    And yes, it's an extremely hard read. It's deliberately obfusticating and confusing. The feeling one gets by the end of it is that one has been deliberately confused and bored to pieces, with the constant repetitive whispered admonition to let Dianetics teach you the way out of this confusion . . . just as Hubbard intended.
  38. Burnt2 Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"

    Interesting, considering whats happened in the past with pregnant women in the sea org.
  39. Peregrine Member

    Re: "Have you read Dianetics?"


    Even more interesting was the claim by Ron DeWolfe (Hubbard's son) that Hubbard tried to inflict at least one coat-hanger abortion on his first wife:

    Ron Jr. says that he remembers much of his childhood. He claims to recall, at six years, a vivid scene of his father performing an abortion ritual on his mother with a coat hanger. . . I have a memory of this that goes back to when I was six years old. It is certainly a problem for my father and for Scientology that I rememoer this. It was around 1939, 1940, that I watched my father doing something to my mother. She was lying on the bed and he was sitting on her, facing her feet. He had a coat hanger in his hand. There was blood all over the place. I remember my father shouting at me. "Go back to bed!" A little while later a doctor came and took her off to the hospital. She didn't talk about it for quite a number of years. Neither did my father.

    From: (pic a little nsfw).

    Also relevant:

    DeWolf has been accused of just making all this up. But personally I think he comes across as very believable indeed, especially when you cross reference the claims made in this article with other documented and verifiable evidence.

    Two things spring to mind when you get to the abortion bit in Dianetics (and I'll scan some of it in for the people on this board). DeWolf's claim that every "case history" in Dianetics was made up and the vividness of Hubbard's description. It's almost as if he was there to witness it . . .

    Note also how he claims that scientology was in disarray and likely to collapse at any time. They didn't collapse. They've survived a number of flaps since then also. Let's not let them get away with it this time, eh?

    Scientology: it's far far worse than anything you have imagined.

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