*INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

Discussion in 'Education, Research and Inside Reports' started by Randomness, Feb 1, 2008.

  1. Randomness Member

    *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    Right, this should pretty much be MANDATORY reading for anyone who isn't here just to be on the Anonymous Legion bandwagon.

    This is a genuine Scientologist who was born into the CoS, intelligent and willing to debate his beliefs, who also is fully able and willing to view things which are critical of his religion.

    This does paint a lot of things in a different light, I guess this is the new generations of Scienos.

    This does not however change our approach towards the RTC etc., but it should act as a refresher to any Aspies amongst us, the so-called "drones" usually have nothing to do with the evils of the CoS and resent the corruption in the Church, without being freezoners themselves. They are PEOPLE.

    Remember this and show respect and compassion for Scientologists, not sympathy.

    EUCJ is the gentleman you should read up on.
  2. Randomness Member

    Re: Incredibly important look from the inside

    Here's what we're trying to achieve in action:

    Mr. Wong:

    I'm going to be honest. At some point I had this same perception of your arguments:

    Quote from: NotAnotherOne on January 26, 2008, 01:40 AM
    I'm a fan of your work and frankly I'm disappointed at the hard line you're taking here. You are calling Scientology inherently wrong. This seems to fly in the face of the ideas you outlined in your God Fuse article. Just sayin...

    But you just fucking changed that. I hadn't even thought about it this way:

    Quote from: David Wong on January 26, 2008, 03:23 AM
    What somebody said earlier, how the early Christian church was guilty of all these things? No doubt, and far worse. That's why many, many people over the centuries have died horrific deaths trying to get it changed.

    You just changed my whole perception on this thing. To put it more bluntly, you fucking blew my mind.

    I believe every person is inherently good, whether it's Humanism or Scientology saying it. This society is built on the foundation of these people, and it works because of them.

    I believe and maintain that Scientology's principles can work, and actually do good. I believe it can wholly function within this society, as a part of it.

    But it's not doing it. This society will reject what's not good for it. It's not working. The general outrage right now goes to show that. Right now, as it is, the way it's being applied, the Church of Scientology (and therefore Scientology) is doing far more damage than what it's good actions may compensate for.

    It took centuries for Christianity to be able to function in a tolerant, civilized society. Even now, some factions of it seem to struggle to do so. It took an Inquisition, it took Crusades, Reforms, burning of witches, intolerance, racism. As you said, it took horrific deaths.

    We overall live in a more advanced society now. A better one, I think. I hope it does not come to that.

    I believe Scientology can work, maybe not for everyone, but for some, and without hurting anyone. If the Church's sites being hacked, documents leaked, public ridicule, the controversy about being banned and all that's happening is what it's gonna take for it to do so, for it to stop damaging people's lives, then so be it.

    If I'm right, this beliefs will be up to the test.
  3. Randomness Member

    Quoted from EUCJ, a young Scientologist.

    This is certainly more than I would have expected to get out of this thread. Thank you for taking the time to write that. I've been getting PM's from participants of this "Anonymous" movement, and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised.

    I don't represent Scientology, or even Scientologists. Heck, I'm just a guy sitting here answering questions. I can only say that as an individual, these things people have written, specially among the hostility I've found on some parts of the internet, have meant a lot to me. They've made me think that, as much as I may disagree with your methods, at least they are a step towards a hopefully better future for Scientologists as members of society. They've made me hope. They've made me smile.

    Thank you.
  4. L.the.Anon Member

    Whoever posted that, good call. He said he did feel targeted lately, and this shows that it is not our intention. Though he might be talking about some other media attention or something as well...
  5. Randomness Member

    Mah pleasure.
  6. Anonamour Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    Randomness, why the hell are you singling out Aspies in this way? Am I misunderstanding something?

    but it should act as a refresher to any diabetics amongst us, you know how they get when their blood sugar is low

  7. Even without having read the link yet, I think this is a really important point. It's one that I've often seen neglected by people who oppose coercive religious groups other than Scientology, too.
  8. shrivti Member

  9. its.an0nym0us Member

    Some of the replies were educational until his excuse for information being taken out of context was (int a nutshell) 'well anti-scientology propaganda does it too'.

    Also, Alanis Morisette reference is bad.
  10. Re:

    Definitely agree with you on this point - this is something all of the members (and non-members) should register before proceeding with the protests, etc. that we need to give the guys the same respect as those that aren't Scientologists.
  11. AnonKiwi Member


    ^ Waste of time and not even funny. Well done.

    Anyway, if he feels like a giant anon spotlight has dropped on him, someone remind the guy that the reason for this is that no one else in Scio is willing to debate in any rational manner and people are enjoying the chance to talk to someone who is.
  12. Anonymous29 Member


    Then why are you here?
  13. xyzzy65535 Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    As an Aspie, I'd guess he means "people who tend to forget others are people too". The unfair generalization is a deliberate *chan-style joke that's supposed to keep you reading. But that's only a guess--I do have trouble deciphering people's motivations....

    If I'm right, we've both just been trolled, quite possibly unintentionally.
  14. Stoopkid Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    Actually I thought it was that goons and /b/tards are known for their high concentrations of aspies and/or other socially awkward people that could fuck things up if they get interviewed and asked about how this isn't religious persecution and they say "Scifags epic fail, so we are trying to close their pools, for the lulz."
  15. anonj Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    Something I thought about: shouldn't we make an own site for those currently affiliated with Scientology? Something like (lol, long url is long) or, you get the idea, and then make huge signs with the url on them. On the site we would first say something like "Anon doesn't attack the religion of Scientology but the COS" with big, blinking compassionate letters and then proceed.

    We obviously would need ex-scis to tell us more about what to put on the site, but basically every single Scientologist we could persuade to our side would be epic win.
  16. Re: Re:

    Because he wants a summary, not everybody has time to read pages and pages of information to decide if it's relevant to them and their own cause or not. Don't be such a troll and just fucking help out.

    I didn't read it either - I'll just wait for somebody to point out the important bits (like they are already doing) and read those.
  17. Anonym Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    Because Asperger's is a very common "self-diagnosed" affliction among goons, /b/tards and other asorted nerds, and nine times out of ten it's just an excuse to be rude and antisocial. It's a stab at the "I'm convinced I've got Asperger's, so I can treat other people any way I want" self-proclaimed aspies, not the poor sods struggling with the actual affliction.
  18. ThatNateGuy Member

  19. weberly Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    i know this is off topic, but i keep seeing reference to aspies and i think it means jerks in general. but i have a brother who is a mom-diagnosed aspie, and i'll just say it..he's a total asshole with zero accountability, and he clearly enjoys pissing people off.
  20. mko Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    HEY! I'm an Aspie and I resent that remark.

    (I do however know a couple jackass Aspies though)
  21. Tay Zonday Member

  22. Gunslinger Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    This was interesting and all - but it's not really impressing me as much as it seems to have impressed others.

    Are Scientologists people too? Of course. Do Scientologists have just as much "right to be wrong" as anybody else? I suppose - although I have yet to hear where it is either socially acceptable or psychologically healthy to believe in a proven lie. Do Scientologists want a better world where everyone has the same chance to live in peace, where everyone has the same rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness? Um,...I guess - I do notice that many, many Scientologists believe that the world cannot be happy without Scientology, and therefore should sign up.

    But then there's this -

    This comment displays a fairly ignorant understanding of the history of Christianity.

    Christianity - the belief in and adherence to the Teachings of Christ - thrived almost immediately after its introduction to the world by Christ himself. His immediate followers (there were more than just the 12 Disciples - there were thousands of people who attended his speeches, sermons and whatnot) began to spread the "Gospel" ("good news") within weeks of Jesus' "Ascension" (as presented in the first chapter of the Book of Acts). The message of Peace, Love and Acceptance Christ's followers shared with their neighbors and leaders of their communities stood out in sharp contrast to the oppressive and superstitious beliefs of the Roman Empire. Within years after the start of the spread of Christianity, the number of people being called "Christians" were spread through Asia Minor and the Mediterranean. (They were first called "Christians" in Damascus, where the word meant "little Christs" - it was actually a derisive term which followers of Jesus eventually took to be a compliment.)

    Many people make the mistake of assuming that "Christian" is the same thing as "Catholic." The Catholic Church wasn't established by Christ, by Peter or by any Christian of the first century A.D. The Catholic Church was started by the Emperor Constantine when he declared Christianity the "official" religion of Rome. He did not, however, declare all other religions illegal. So, as a result, many Romans began to practice the religion of Christianity in the same manner they had already been worshipping their own Roman gods and goddesses, with many of the same rituals and practices of the popular Mystery Cults of the day. The end result? The Catholic Church.

    And it was the corrupt and foolish leaders of the medieval Catholic Church that spawned the Crusades. It was the corrupt, superstitious and greedy leaders of the Catholic Church which instigated the Inquistion.

    The Reformation is mentioned as an example of the failings of Christianity, but in fact, the Reformation was an attempt to get away from what many considered to be the idolatry and abuse of the Teachings of Christ - original Christianity, if you will.

    And Intolerance, Racism and the persecution, torture and murder of people who are different are not problems inherent in Christianity. They are problems inherent in Humanity.

    Meanwhile - within his own lifetime, after establishing Scientology as more than just a Self-Help ideology, but as a new "Religion" - L. Ron Hubbard created and instigated such "beliefs" as Disconnection, Declarations of Suppressive Persons, "Always Attack, Never Defend", Operation Snow White and Operation Freakout. These "beliefs" were built in to the very foundations of Scientology. It didn't take centuries for Scientology to be taken and corrupted into something abusive and dangerous. It started out as abusive and dangerous. There was never a message of Peace, Love and Acceptance in any of Hubbard's teachings, lectures or writings. Only "do what I say, believe what I tell you without question, and pay the bills I send you."

    I believe there are many Scientologists who believe that their "Church" is out to save the world. But I think they believe this because they were told by the Organization itself that they were out to save the world. Regardless of their good intentions, they are adhering to a "belief system" which calls Lies the Truth, calls works of Fiction Science, calls Compliance Peace and thinks of Control as Freedom.

    NOTE* For those of you who can't stand discussions of Christianity, for whatever reason, I only mention it here because the Scientologist in question in the OP brought it up, I believe, inaccurately.
  23. Gunslinger Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    By the way, the link in the OP doesn't work anymore.

    Was there a specific reason why this was Stickied? It doesn't seem to be any more or less important than any of the other discussions regarding the defense or admonishment of the argument about the "Religion" of Scientology. I think, in fairness, it should join the "rank and file" of the other Threads.
  24. lmafo Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    This is not as important as was advertised...
    This is another poor loon that thinks that "scientology can work", ignoring the fact that scientology was invented for scam in the first place...
  25. holdemm Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    this was one of the first articles out there. It was informative and the mods over at the forums moderated the posts well. soon it became a flamefest and they locked the thread. it was important but not that much.
  26. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    It is not unhealthy to believe a proven lie. There is the inherent power of myth, or the need to believe someone you love didn't do something evil. I could go on and we could debate it, but my point is really this:

    If we are fighting based on making people believe what we know to be true, then we are no different from them in their perspective.

    Furthermore, you missed their belief about everyone having rights. THEY DO NOT BELEIVE THIS AT ALL. They believe only sane and honest people should have rights, and I don't mean sane or honest by any one's definition but theirs.

    If we don't give people the right to be wrong without having to "save" them from it, then we are basically engaging in the very mentality we are opposing. However, that does not take away our responsibility to educate people and give them access to other facts and viewpoints freely. I'm sure we all agree on that, right?

    BTW, brilliant observations about Christianity. The point of evil being human and not endemic to religion (except perhaps as an excuse) is right on.
  27. Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    We are all in this for different reasons. Why are you forcing your reasons on others?

    I'm not saving anything, I'm putting Co$'s heart on a pike.
  28. Gunslinger Member

    Re: *INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT* look from the inside

    I didn't make my point as clear as I thought I had. I DON'T think Scientologists believe in inalienable rights. That's why I said, "Uh....I guess."

    I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, mostly because I've been accused of being too unrelenting in my views.

    I believe Scientology to be a an abusive, misguided Mind-Control Cult based on a total network of shoddy lies. Period.

    And I believe that putting your "faith", for lack of a better word, in any type of lie - regardless of your good intentions - is unhealthy. If you want to believe a loved one does no wrong - in spite of evidence to the contrary - you may be keeping a positive outlook, or being encouraging or whatever - but you're also still deluding yourself. Unhealthy.

    And if you actually take the elements of a widely believed myth - such as leprechauns - and build your entire world around that myth, to the point of disconnecting from your families, bankrupting yourself and making yourself literally ill all for the sake of looking for an actual pot of gold at the end of a rainbow - then you are indulging in an unhealthy way of life - both mentally and physically. My opinion? Sure. But it's also the Truth.

    And thanks for the compliment re Christianity. I spent a number of years being continuously convinced that the only way I could lead a happy and full life was if I continued to go to the same place every Sunday, listen to the same people telling me the same things over and over, to sing the same songs, perform like everyone else and basically conform, conform, conform.

    In other words, I've had enough of Religion to know that it's not the same as Faith. I still believe in a person's Right to their own Religious Beliefs, but for me - I no longer need the crutch.

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