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Independent Scientology Religious Liberty League attacks journalist Tony Ortega

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by CommunicatorIC, Feb 7, 2016.

  1. Independent Scientology Religious Liberty League attacks journalist Tony Ortega.

    Religious Liberty League: Dani Lemberger Nails Ortega as a Religious Bigot

    http://religiouslibertyleague.org/429-2/

    * * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *

    Our readers may have missed a recent smackdown of Tony Ortega by Dani Lemberger, the head of Tel Aviv’s Dror Center, a Scientology organization that broke away from the church in 2012. We did.

    But it is an important event in the independent field, for it illustrates a paradigm shift in the movement. Namely, the separation of pro-LRH, pro-Scientologists from the haters and black propagandists who had, by stealth and sophisticated counter-intelligence techniques[1], hoodwinked a number of prominent independent Scientologists into believing that nothing but the destruction of Scientology could rid the world of the abusive policies and practices of the church under the one-man leadership of David Miscavige.

    Click here for a ringside seat of the extravaganza, and enjoy.

    In summary, Ortega lambasted CNN and religious scholar and TV personality, Reza Aslan, for filming a positive documentary on the practice of Scientology outside the church. Among other prominent persons in the independent field, Aslan and his film crew visited the Dror Center.

    Ortega railed against CNN and Aslan for daring to show the benefits of Scientology, which laid bare his religious bigotry and his true message of hatred, intolerance and exclusion.

    Lemberger took exception. He wrote an eloquent comment on Ortega’s blog, and then elaborated his position in an interview that was posted on the Dror Center’s website. We encourage everyone to read both pieces in the link above.

    Among other things, Lemberger nails Ortega for:

    * his “refusal to differentiate between the Church and the subject of Scientology,” pointing out the definition of insanity is the inability to recognize differences in things, which leads to an absurd fear of apples, for example, based on one apple that, many years ago, had a worm in it;

    * his refusal to experience Scientology processing or to even visit the Dror Center during Ortega’s occasional trips to Israel, as requested by Lemberger; and,

    * his positioning as an authority and journalist writing on the subject of Scientology when, in fact, he has a strong hatred and scorn of Hubbard and the philosophy he founded.

    Ortega is a religious hate monger, his blog a cesspool of hatred, intolerance and exclusion. “No,” he protested to us several years ago when we called bullshit to his face; he was just reporting on corruption and inhumane treatment. His writings betray his contention.

    * * * *

    * * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *

    Association of Free Scientologists Israel: Ortega-Aslan-Lemberger

    http://scnil.org/english/2016/02/04/ortega-aslan-lemberger/

    * * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *

    However, Ortega’s post against CNN and Reza Aslan drew a sharp response from Dani Lemberger. Dani posted a comment which we have copied here in full:

    Hello Tony,

    You are right about one thing, Reza Aslan did spend a wonderful day with us, at Dror Center, Haifa, Israel, about a month ago.

    I’m sorry to say, you are wrong about all the rest. And you do manifest bigotry and hatred, based on ignorance. You told me, when we spoke, that you visit Israel occasionally. I invited you to come see us at Dror, even get some free auditing, but you refused to come and “see for yourself.”

    You ridicule the “indie” Scientologists who are still foolish enough to “believe in LRH” but when you have an opportunity to see what we do, you turn it down.

    I told you on our last telephone conversation that you too, like other critics, refuse to make the obvious distinction between the scam called the “Church of Scientology” and the subject of Scientology. Miscavige is a lunatic, a despot, the operation he runs is NOT an organization, is NOT a Church and has NOTHING to do with the practice of Scientology.

    Why would you be annoyed with Reza Aslan deciding to cover the philosophy or religion of Scientology?

    Why make the false statement that we are: ” a movement that, at its national annual convention, managed to gather about 36 people.” You know this is lie! Fact is, there are many thousands of “indie” and “freezone” Scientologists, actively practicing around the world.

    I can easily prove to you that we are expanding steadily, not only at Dror, but world-wide.

    I can also, easily, prove to you that Scientology does deliver “miracles” and “amazing” results. We do so consistently at Dror. You or any of the readers of this blog are warmly invited to come take a look.

    It pains me that LRH made some grave errors which enabled a lunatic such as Miscavige to seize control and destroy Scientology. Miscavige’s criminality may have killed Karen’s son, the Scientology philosophy definitely did not.

    When I spent an evening with Karen at her home in July 2013, she still considered herself a Scientologist, we agreed that the Church is NOT Scientology, that Miscvige is a horrendous despot. Karen offered to help us in training on auditing tech of her expertise and gave us one of her e-meters as a present. Maybe she has changed her mind since, which she is entitled to, of course.

    Marty Rathbun too was an ardent Scientologist when I met him in June 2012, and a few months later became an anti-Scientologist. I still love him and think he’s a great guy, even though we differ on the subject of Scientology.

    Is Scientology a religion? I think not. But many scholars of the subject disagree with me. Two years ago we hosted, at Dror, Prof James Lewis, an expert on “Modern Religions” who has spent much time studying Scientology. He insisted it falls under the definition of religion, I told him I view it as an “Applied Spiritual Philosophy”. Doesn’t really matter what you call it.

    Your refusal to differentiate between the Church and the subject of Scientology is what we, Scientologists, call A=A=A. The inability of the reactive mind to see differences. This is also the definition of insanity: viewing as identical, things that are not the same. Like, being afraid of all apples because one apple, years ago, had a worm in it.

    So maybe you are somewhat obsessive and lack sanity on the subject of Scientology. I am sure you know very well that I am not at all like Miscavige, I am intelligent, truly caring of others, run Dror as a democratic partnership where people from all over the world love to come, and are free to leave. We charge reasonable rates for high-quality services, never compelling a person to donate a dime or take an action he does not wish.

    Further, you also should know that I am one of the most effective enemies of Miscavige. Possibly even more dangerous to him than you. This point is hard to measure so I say, “possibly”. I am currently suing the Church of Scientology International, as your readers should know, in the Tel Aviv District Court. And, don’t tell anyone, this is still a secret, am helping a few other fellow “indies” in preparing their lawsuits that will soon hit the Church.

    Scientology is now delivered throughout the world, by hundreds of auditors to thousands of “preclears” with great success. The subject will long outlive criminal operation which is on a rapid decline.

    If you allow me some additional space on your site, I will be happy to tell your readers more about what we actually do. Those who scorn or mock, do so out of ignorance and I realize, in some cases, due to their suffering at the hands of an evil man, pretending to be a follower of LRH.

    Thanks for posting this. Best wishes for a wonderful 2016, Dani Lemberger

    Following this comment, a long exchange developed on Ortega’s blog. (Note: This is a link to Disqus, a discussion tool used by Ortega’s blog. We are not familiar with it.)


    AFSI’s follow-up interview with Dani Lemberger

    We recently called Dani to find out what made him so furious about Ortega’s post.

    AFSI: Dani, in your comment on Ortega’s blog you accuse him of hatred, bigotry and ignorance. How comes?

    Dani: Many other readers there have taken this point up. How dare I say that Tony is “ignorant” concerning Scientology. Tony Ortega has established himself as an authority on the subject and I dare state the opposite. There’s a few points to this:

    First, if Tony is a journalist, I think he should bring news and opinions of others and remain unbiased. If he has a strong position of hatred and scorn towards Hubbard and Scientology, he loses his position as a fair reporter.

    Second, Tony refuses to make the clear and obvious distinction between the Church and the subject of Scientology. This is irrational, upsetting and even damaging to me personally. That he and I have one common enemy, David Miscavige, does not mean we agree about the subject of Scientology.

    Third, Tony has never had any auditing, has never even visited a decent Scientology center. It so happens his girlfriend is Israeli and he visits Israel occasionally. I invited him to come see Dror Center, inspect it with his own eyes, see what we are doing. He’s never come, says he’s too busy. Strange, if he would have had a genuine and honest approach to the subject, he’d find the time. He’s devoted his life to attacking Scientology, maybe he should take a fresh look at it.

    AFSI: Anything else about this specific article, about Reza Aslan’s documentary?

    * * * *


    * * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *
  2. Ann O'Nymous Member

    The so-called "independent" scientologists may be independent, but they use the very same PR tricks the "non-independent" ones have been using for decades.
    • Like Like x 6
  3. Exactly so, Ann.

    Tony Ortega is free to investigate whatever he pleases. This rant from the Israeli Indy is pure bluster. Rather than counter any specific facts, he spouts the identical PR bullshit as the CoS about the expansion, coming to see for yourself, on and on - generalities and PR, no doubt hoping to drum up more business.

    Especially ludicrous is his calling Ortega
    when he himself doesn't believe Scientology is a religion -


    ...but that's the LRH 'tech' for you - self-contradictory bullshit that you have to pay for.

    LOL
    • Like Like x 4
  4. BLiP Member

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  5. anon8109 Member

    I wonder if Lemberger feels betrayed because TO declined to write a puff piece promoting his group.

    Lemberger had dreams of expansion when he broke away from the scientology corporation, but that's probably not going well.
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  6. DeathHamster Member

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  7. BigBeard Member

    Well...It seems Independent $cientology = Cof$ in at least one respect. Both get majorly butt hurt when TonyO writes the truth. Too bad...for them.

    BigBeard
    • Like Like x 3
  8. I agree that All Scientologists including the Independent promoters of the scam oppose the truth that Tony Ortega exposes on a regular basis about L. Ron Hubbard's brutally abusive scam, policies and insane controlling processing in many, many respects.

    Tony has been very fair to Independents, many who've been quite helpful in exposing the truth. I wish them all well and hope that they will stop promoting Hubbard's scam completely, many for their own personal benefit, others because they still cling to decades of LRH control over them.

    Independents attempt to lure exes in with a Miscavige Bad / Hubbard Good lie.

    They're all frauds exploiting and attempting to control vulnerable victims. Indies simply have a kinder, gentler approach of the abusive monster L. Ron Hubbard's laughable Modern 'Science' of Mental Health turned phony 'Religion' once the absurd 'Science' was debunked and exposed.

    Google: Never ending abuses of L. Ron Hubbard policies
    (Includes Institutional neglect and abuse of children by LRH policy ffs)

    Google: Death of Lisa Mcpherson / LRH Introspection Rundown
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Random guy Member

    Sooooo, Lemberger & Co want to take on Tony Ortega?

    Deer-popcorn-gif.gif?gs=a.gif
    • Like Like x 2
  10. To be fair, and unless I missed something (which is possible), the way I parse the article is that the "the Israeli Indy," Dani Lemberger, did not say Tony Ortega is "a religious hate monger." Only the Religious Liberty League said Tony is "a religious hate monger."
  11. Ann O'Nymous Member

    It seems that the main author of http://religiouslibertyleague.org/ is Merrell Vannier, who is also the main author of http://blog.savescientology.com, where one can find the following:
    http://blog.savescientology.com/2015/03/the-creator-of-save-scientology-is/
  12. Ann O'Nymous Member

    This guy labels himself:
    A TRUE STORY OF INTRIGUE AND ESPIONAGE FROM SCIENTOLOGY'S FORMER NO. 1 SPY
    • Like Like x 1
  13. DeathHamster Member

    • Like Like x 2
  14. Scientology: The L. Ron Hubbard Science, I mean 'Religion' of Espionage, Fair-Game, Fraud and Disconnection
    Now for sale in an Independent version, same thing, only different,
  15. Dani Lemberger has provided more information in a comment on the Religious Liberty League blog. Some of the information is new, or at least new to me.

    http://religiouslibertyleague.org/429-2/

    * * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *

    Dani Lemberger February 7, 2016 at 10:17 am Reply

    Dear Merrell,

    Thank you for posting this article and linking to the article which appeared on the AFSI site.

    Two technical notes first:

    1. Dror Center is in Haifa, north Israel, not in Tel Aviv. This is a vital point of local patriotism. Tel Aviv is the big city, Haifa is always inferior. Our friend Hemi Benvinisti, who comes from Tel Aviv to do services at Dror, Haifa, says we deserve a medal from the mayor of Haifa because it’s the first time ever somebody from Tel Aviv comes to Haifa for anything.

    2. The article about Ortega-Aslan was posted on the site of the Association of Free Scientologists Israel (AFSI), it is not the Dror Center site. About three years ago a group of “indie” Scientologists in Israel established a non-profit association so that the aims of free Scientology can be forwarded and protected. We now have Scientology activities in Israel that are not part of Dror, most notably Don Schaul who is in Tel Aviv.




    Now, to the subject matter itself. Yes, I have seen many “indie” Scientologist drift and become Scientology opponents. Marty Rathbun, when I spent a week with him at his home in June 2012, was still an ardent Scientologist and auditor and a few months later “changed sides”. Karen de la Carriere too was with us as a Scientologist opposing the lunatic Miscavige. Same was true of Mike Rinder, who told me he plans to continue doing Scientology and now seems to hold an anti-Scientology, anti-Hubbard position.

    All have a right to change their minds and I do not need to protect LRH if anyone wants to attack him. I’m sure he can fend for himself, wherever he may be.

    Yet I observe the drift and it dismays me. There may be PTSness to the likes of Ortega, Alex Gibney or Lawrence Wright or whatever. Clearly the book and film “Going Clear” fail to do the very minimum of contacting several non-Church Scientologists, show the other side of Scientology and attempt to explain why some nuts like myself still do Scientology, despite the church’s criminality.

    The last few years my wife, Tami, and I have traveled extensively to observe for ourselves. We’ve gone from Idaho to Sweden to South Africa, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Florida, California and more. And I have not yet been to Australia, Russia, Atlanta and countless other places.

    All over the world we witness an enthusiastic “re-birth” of Scientology, maybe similar to the scene of the 1950-60’s, like old-old-timers have described it to me. Some of this I could still observe when we got on lines at COSMOD, the San Francisco Mission in 1980. The Mission Holder, Martin Samuels, was promptly declared in 1982. Guess by whom.

    So it’s happening now world-wide. At Dror Center we now have young people coming in, who’ve never even heard of the fricking CoS, enjoying wins on TR’s, co-auditing Dianetics, eager to become auditors. And we also enjoy the constant trickle of ex-Churchies coming from abroad to do their OT Levels and rid themselves of traumas from their last contact with the Church’s “AO’s”. Like Anthony Price from Sidney or Marat Iskanderov from Almaty and many more.

    I’m so happy to see us working together and building up our network of friendship and support. Thanks, Dani


    * * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *
  16. I can see that the 'religious hate-monger' quote sits apart from other quoted points made by Lemberger.

    But there is this from your OP:
    which Lemberger makes no effort to correct in his follow-up to 'Merrell' on 7 Feb, while correcting other factual errors in the RLL piece. It therefore seems reasonable to infer that he was happy/had no issue with the headline.

    I find both the RLL piece and Lemberger's contributions nothing more than tawdry obfuscations and smears, devoid of substance other than marketing/PR for their respective micro-scams, both tainted by Hubbard's original con.
    • Like Like x 3
  17. A follow-up. By my reading of the discussion on the Religious Liberty League article -

    http://religiouslibertyleague.org/429-2/

    (and please read it yourself to see if you agree), the following people endorse or support the RLL's attack on Tony Ortega as a "religious bigot":

    Merrell Vannier
    Dave LaCroix
    Dani Lemberger
    Aida Thomas
    "Peter"
    Theo Sismanides
    Robin Adair

    And perhaps Shelley Jackson

    It further appears that Merrell Vannier has threatened, or at least impliedly threatened, Tony:

    * * * * * BEGIN QUOTATION * * * * *


    Merrell Vannier February 10, 2016 at 9:20 pm Reply

    Thank you for the post. Good points. Dani Lemberger actually did a better job than I exposing him; I just reported on it. I’m saving my piece for a later time, but will only run it if Ortega continues to attack the religion of Scientology and people who practice the religion for the purpose of bettering their lives and others’ — in their estimation, which is the only valid measuring stick. Ortega has an interesting history, especially for a person who likes to judge and attack others. I’ll leave it at that for now.

    [DELETED]

    * * * * * END QUOTATION * * * * *

    It also appears the RLL may be adopting Margaret's theory that L. Ron Hubbard really was a war hero, the belief critics of Scientology are controlled by SMERSH (of the Soviet Union or James Bond novels, I don't know), and 911 conspiracy theories:

    * * * * * BEGIN QUOTATION * * * * *

    Robin Adair February 11, 2016 at 12:40 am Reply

    Hey you’re welcome.

    We should avoid making the same mistake that the so called “Church of Scientology” makes and that is confusing character assassination with the “dead agent caper” or “dead agenting”:

    As Ron says in HCO POLICY LETTER OF 13 AUGUST 1970 Issue II PR Series 2 THE MISSING INGREDIENT:

    The technique of proving utterances false is called “DEAD AGENTING.” It’s in the first book of Chinese espionage. When the enemy agent gives false data, those who believed him but now find it false kill him-or at least cease to believe him.

    So the PR slang for it is “dead agenting.”

    This consists of disproving utterly the false statement with documents or demonstration or display.

    One has to have a kit (a collection of documents) or the ability to demonstrate or something to display.

    Since many of his “sources” of “information” have come from “documents” that have been obtained through the FOIA and are of questionable veracity.

    In fact much of it comes from the late cross dressing Director of the FBI Jane Edgar Hoover.

    Others from our friends in the so called “Intelligence” Community and State Department when they were accusing us of running guns, selling drugs and having orgies (the latter I somehow missed and was the main reason I got into Scientology….just kidding) and various other assorted “crimes”.

    Take a look at how Margaret has pretty much deconstructed the myths perpetrated by Cooper, Russell and later plagiarized by Wright and later promoted in that shoddy “doc” by Gibney:

    http://scientologymyths.com/hubbardww2.htm

    Never mind the fact that Ortega considers someone as historically challenged as Atack a “historian”:

    http://www.chaletbooks.com/chaletreports/

    Like the writer of this series of posts says:

    “Only fiction doesn’t leave a paper trail.”

    And much of what Tony writes is nothing but fiction.

    Also I wouldn’t trust the lame stream media with our current disagreement with the current regime or exposing their corruption as they evidently have gotten the story wrong which they usually do since like Tony they assign the most compromised, lazy and mentally inept “journalists” to the Scientology beat.

    Usually those who have a wikipedia “understanding” of the subject and the organization or who receive their marching orders from SMERSH like say Larry Wright who’s last name defies his type of journalism. Since in most cases he gets the story wrong:

    http://banditobooks.com/essay/content/2.php

    _____________________________________________________________

    Merrell Vannier February 11, 2016 at 2:48 am Reply

    Robin, I edited out the sentence re: Ortega. Hope you don’t mind. Too inflammatory. As you said in the sentence following it, which I also edited as no longer applicable, it isn’t important.


    * * * * * END QUOTATION * * * * *
  18. I'm guessing the "dirt" on Tony O is a re-hash of the Village Voice / Backpages story. The CoS already tried to get some mileage out of that one and it didn't go anywhere and if they had found anything else they would have tried to use it as well.

    Though maybe their intelligence gathering is crippled now that their "number one spy" has left. :)

    And I'm not surprised the "Margaret" claims are still floating around the indy world. If they applied principles of skepticism to the claims that they would like to be true they wouldn't be Scientologists.
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  19. fishypants Moderator


    maxresdefault.jpg
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  20. DeathHamster Member


    Dim bulb Merrell has probably found the DA sites by rich sick fuck Brucie-baby, who married his own daughter, and is kind of pissed off at Tony.
    • Like Like x 4
  21. The Wrong Guy Member

    Far be it from me to ever be disrespectful or rude, but fuck Independent Scientologists, and fuck the entire Independent Scientology forum. Seriously. Fuck all of it.

    Carry on.

    1c05e6757ac8d3b8c58693f1cc95b189.jpg
    • Like Like x 7
  22. Ann O'Nymous Member

    IMHO, there are two options:
    • Independents are treated like non-independents.
    • Independents are divided into two sub-groups: those who behave like non-independents (and will be treated likewise) and those who do not.
    The second option seems fairer, but communicating about it will be more complicated.
    • Like Like x 2
  23. BLiP Member


    Yep, straight outta the Manual . . .

    . . . and, so far, its all Victim Tech™.


    The Scientology Dictionary defines 'Victim' as '1. a destroyed or threatened with destruction receipt point. 2. a victim is an unwilling and unknowing effect of life, matter, energy, space and time.' Also, in Scientology, the word 'victim' is sometimes associated with the 'dramatizing of a service facsimile,' where someone becomes a 'victim' to get sympathy and to gain other perceived advantages. Accordingly, 'victims' in Scientology are frowned upon, especially if they are being victims of Scientology.

    Yet inside the Scientology mindfuck, Scientologists are continually being victimized. L Ron Hubbard created an array of imaginary foes to cloister his dupes and explain away wog world criticism. There are, among others, SPs, DBs, psychs, SMERSCH, anti-religious bigots, haters, bashers, obsessed critics, and, of course, those 'merchants of chaos', journalists. All these 'enemies' are unqualified to even comment on Scientology yet are constantly 'attacking the Scientology 'religion'. Needless to say, L Ron Hubbard provided a near perfect cognitive-dissonance-inducing solution. Per his confidential instructions one is to use 'ENEMY TACTICS', and these include 'aberrative tactics'. So, Scientologists, when interacting with 'wogs' (humanoids who, of course, are aberrated) and SPs, DBs, etc, if it is regarded as forwarding Scientology, will use 'ENEMY TACTICS'. Explicit details of how Scientologists are required to respond can be found in Scientology's (mostly, but not entirely, non-confidential) deceptively multi-layered PR Tech. And remember, the PR section is subservient to the intelligence-gathering section.

    Bits of these usually confidential instructions by Scientology's founder can be found in Scientology's founder's public writings and lectures, and these filter (or flow) down to the Scientologists, and shape their thinking. Scientology is a secretive subject, and one of the traits of a Scientologist is to be influenced by Scientology in ways not even considered let alone fully understood. So, a Scientologist will often 'play the victim card' against a 'wog' or 'basher' or 'SP' without being fully aware of the source material upon which these actions are based. On the other hand, Scientologists are masters at rolling out orchestrated PR campaign which feature the use of Victim Tech™ either as a main technique, (cf: bleatings at the United Nations) or as a distraction (cf: the mopping up after Operation Snow White).

    So, is there more to come? Is this an attempt by the Indie Dependents to put Ethics into the ex-cult community and Scientology themed blogs? Has Tony been too mean to Scientology and, really, he should just let them splatter endless success stories all over the Bunker? Does this oddball rallying of Dani Lamb Burger, the Liberty League Loonies, the Milestone Mob, and various other individuals have anything to do with Marty and Mosey's courtroom decisions? Or is Tony's 'victimization' of Marty just a chance to put the boot in out of frustration that the only ones not making money out of the ex-cult Scientology market place are Indie Dependent auditors? Gotta blame someone coz that's what L Ron Hubbard did, right? Will this kerfuffle blow over in a day or two when some other episode of typical Scientology crazy breaks out?

    TL/DR: Just BLiP blethering on. Given the effect of the Scientology mindfuck, its impossible to know for sure whether this attack on Tony Ortega is part of some organised caper or just whether similarly mindfucked groups have collided on this occasion. Either way, the result will be FAIL and lulz will ensue, especially for Tony.


    I must have missed the memo. How is an Independent Scientologist to be treated? It seems to me that anyone who identifies as an Independent Scientologist is beyond treatment.
    • Like Like x 2
  24. Years ago I tried to follow the second option. In the early days of the Indy (as opposed to preexisting Freezone) movement, I differentiated between the relatively liberal Indies, then represented by Rathbun and Rinder, and the fundamentalist, KSW Indies (who I labeled "Wahhabi" -- did that piss them off), then (and still) represented by Milestone Two -- and apparently now also by the Religious Liberty League.

    Interestingly, what I dubbed the relatively "liberal" Indie movement died off. That should not be surprising. It appears the more KSW and fundamentalist Indies are and remain when they get out of the COS, the better they are able to resist critical thought. contrary facts, etc.

    FWIW, my understanding is that there are still relatively liberal, non-KSW Indies and Freezoners. They have a low profile because they generally don't form organizations (after the COS, can you blame them?), do their own thing, and explore a bit (e.g., Ron's Org stuff, old OT levels, etc.). These tend to people who were auditors (as opposed to exec, admin, and FSM types), only wanted to be auditors, genuinely got into Scientology to help people, and continue quietly to be auditors.

    FWIW, and despite Dani Lemberger's problems with Tony Ortega, I've heard that the Dror Center in Israel is relatively relaxed, non-KSW, non-coercive, etc. For example, I've read somewhere that they have experimented with the 48 OT levels of Ron's Org. Whatever one may think of such OT levels (ok, they are bullshit like the rest), they are hardly KSW.
  25. If you criticize specific behaviour then it inherently applies only to those who practice it. You'll still get people who claim #NotAllScientologists but who cares?

    For instance, I'd still criticize any indies who:
    - Charge money for things they can't deliver (which is almost any claimed benefit of Scientology)
    - Engage in blanket attacks on psychiatry and other mental health fields in a manner that might dissuade people from getting proper treatment.
    - Engage in anything that is essentially practising medicine without a license in a manner that might dissuade people from getting proper treatment.

    I'm sure there is more. You can make your own additions to the list.
    • Like Like x 1
  26. RightOn Member


    introduce anybody to the tech- free or not, it's still a brainwashing mind fuck
    administering the Purif - does Aida Thomas and The Warren's still offer it?
    talking about Scientology in any sort of positive light.
    • Like Like x 2
  27. anon8109 Member

    There are two aspects to Hubbard's scam.

    First there is the quackery. False promises to cure illnesses and improve health are as old as humanity. If independents didn't fall for Hubbard's version they'd likely have fallen for some other kind of woo like say christian science, or homeopathy, or witch doctors.

    Then there is the reason I am here. The horrific abuses and criminal activity such as "disconnection", "fair game", the "RPF", and infiltration of government institutions. I don't see independents doing these. Even if they wanted to they just don't have the resources for it.

    That's why I feel no sense of urgency in spending energy opposing them.

    They also serve a useful purpose in providing a soft landing for people who want out of the cult but are not ready for the trauma of letting go completely of daddy Hubbard. How many times have people who escaped joined the independents only to quietly abandon Hubbard altogether a few years later once the cult's high-pressure tactics for trapping people in were gone?
  28. As would I.
  29. Ann O'Nymous Member

    IMHO, the only positive aspect is that they can play the "holier-than-thou" part in the criticism of CoS.
  30. Independents who sell Hubbard's scam in any way are at the very least committing fraud against very vulnerable ex-scientologists. Accepting 'donations' is selling.

    Do they denounce all of Hubbard's abusive policies, medically dangerous rundowns, mind-numbing training routines and punishments? Of course not, they want to cherry-pick from them and implement them for their own personal benefit and profit.

    ''Let's see what Ron would say about this transgression of yours here in Independence Land and we'll apply his policy on that! Remember, we all must KSW.''

    The list of abusive policies within Hubbard's 'scriptures' is endless.

    Here's a few of L. Ron Hubbard's brutal policies and rundowns.
    Hubbard himself instituted the disconnection policy, knowledge reports, the rehabilitation project force, brutally intrusive security-checks, even worse, children's security checks, confiscation of passports, child and adult labor law abuses. Also the medically dangerous purification rundown, insane mega doses of niacin and other calmag-like LRH concoctions that he pulled out of his ass along with virtually all of his alleged 'Research'.


    L. Ron Hubbard, the convicted fraud and noted liar extraordinaire, devised the Scientology Introspection rundown to 'handle' what they determined to be psychotic breaks. This rundown involves the illegal lockdown with no communication by the staff to the victim allowed for as long as it takes.


    In Lisa McPherson's case, she was coerced and heavily pressured by a gang of Scientologists to leave a hospital where she was being treated after suffering a mental breakdown following a minor car accident in Clearwater. These same scientologists placed her in illegal lockdown, chained to a radiator for the strict implementation of the LRH Introspection rundown for 17 full days with no communication.


    A physically attractive young woman deteriorated and withered away to a skeleton with nasty cockroach bites all over her until she died after 17 days of the LRH Introspection rundown on the way to a hospital 45 minutes away that had a Scientologist on staff in the ER, they drove past 3 other hospitals that were much closer. They literally watched her die and Marty Rathbun destroyed critical evidence to cover up this horrendous Scientology crime.




    Ex Scientologists should do everyone a favor and become just that, Ex-Scientologists and if they must cling to Hubbard's fraud, don't entice others to follow them down the rabbit-hole for their own benefit. Move On, Please, many other exes have! It's over, the scam has been fully exposed. Thx.
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Quentinanon Member

    An ex-scientologist is one has renounced the subject, not still subject to the scientology belief system.
    • Like Like x 1
  32. Quentinanon Member

    Ironically, the Warrens chain smoke. They want to make sure they don't get cancer, according to Hubbard. Last I heard, they had their own version of NarCONon.
    • Like Like x 1
  33. RightOn Member


    yeah i think they are pretty well hidden up thar in da woodz
    • Like Like x 2
  34. DeathHamster Member

    • Like Like x 2
  35. The Religious Fuckerty League and The First Indepenmdent Church of Scamology need to be shut down like the cult. They are the same beast. The same Brainwashing. The same niacin liver-destroying crap.

    Down with this sort of thing!
  36. 1. Reza does an item on "Spirituality"

    2. Reza intrudes to Dani's "spiritual group"

    3. Reza films Dani "Yoga Auditing" technique



    some months go by, some editing, some finishing up.



    4. Reza's item airs to International CNN TV presenting Dani as a legitimate "spiritual" group = $cientology



    Dani knows very well that he is not up for $cientology because he does not want to pay sums of $ for their own auditing, so he establishes his own place in order to make $ - and still represents it as $cientology.



    Where is Tony Ortega when he is needed... It seems like someone needs to wake up Dani Boy from his dream, and to make him realize that he is a Free Soul that can eat donuts everyday without thinking about electrifying cans.



    Same happened in Germany, this guy with the big bold head... I forgot his name... also tried to make money out of the "intellectual alien technique", and still calls him self $cientology.



    Tony! you are needed!





    Dani Lemberger + Tony Ortega = Superior Free Zone dog eating punks

    http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/reza-aslan-believer-scientology-muslim-american-tv-show.html





  37. Independent Scientology Religious Liberty League attacks journalist Tony Ortega.
    Religious Liberty League: Dani Lemberger Nails Tony Ortega as a Religious Bigot.
    (Independent Scientology doesn't have enough members to field a team never mind an imaginary 'League' of their own.)

    Don't think Tony Ortega's losing any sleep.

    Dani Lemberger's Lemmings should go after that old Religious Bigot Walt Disney.

    Stop scamming Ex-Scientology Lemmings to take the 'Independent' Scientology Leap with
    you, Lemberger.
    I don't believe that Scientology or Independent Scientology has been granted Religious status in Israel anyways.

    Let's go to the source L. Ron Hubbard himself on Scientology's Religious status:
    Thanks for clearing that up, Ron!
  38. Seems more to me like an idiot gorrilla
  39. The Dror Center Branch of Dani and Tami Lemberger is collapsing. Two of their senior members have died in the past 3 months (Motty Morrel and Hemi Benbenishty). Several months ago I just got a message about the progress of Hemi on self-advanced auditing, and I know that he was having hard time with the materials he was given by them... This is sad - Hemi was a good man who fell to the trap of the Lemberger. REST IN PIECE MY FRIEND and may heaven serve you well.:oops:
  40. DEAD?????

    What drorz did to him? dont they have qual to make sure he is not dying?

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