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Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

Discussion in 'Jett Travolta' started by muldrake, Jan 3, 2009.

  1. muldrake Member

    Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    My short answer is yes, or at least maybe. But is it wrong to do it? I'd say no. In fact, it's obligatory. If you are criticizing an organization because, among other things, it discourages the use of medicine, and the exact practice you are criticizing results in the highly publicized death of a member, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose that moment, when the public is paying most attention, suddenly to fall silent and quit talking about it.

    Where it is exploitation is if you use the victim solely for a cause and treat them as an instrument, rather than a human being in their own right. If you use someone, and it harms them or doesn't help them, you're exploiting them. Jett is dead. Therefore, he can't be benefited by anything we do. So it is, at least in a sense, exploitation to use him as an example to bolster the argument that Scientology's hostility to psychiatric medication is dangerous and deadly. But it doesn't harm him.

    The action is effectively neutral to Jett. It is, however, harmful to his family, John Travolta and Kelly Preston. It tends to defame them, and make their public image worse. Therefore, we should at least try to stick to the truth, balancing this against the fact that the public is interested in this situation right now, and that we have only limited information available.

    What's most important, though, is that what we do with this, in terms of exploiting it, should be aimed at useful ends. I think some useful ends are attaching a high cost to the cult's evil and stupid attacks on medicine, such that they pay for it, discouraging people from joining the cult or using their dangerous methods, making Scientologists think about whether CCHR's bullshit is really a good idea, etc. It should reduce the chances that people are in the future subjected to Scientology's deadly quackery.

    An example of previous exploitation of a death would be that of Lisa McPherson. Some exploitation of this was good and ethical, for example, Jeff Jacobsen's excellent site full of as much complete information as he could get together, making the truth available to the public about what was done to Lisa McPherson. Some was wrong, when it simply used the image of Lisa McPherson to attack Scientology in general without contributing to the distribution of accurate information. I'll note that nobody has been killed in the specific way Lisa McPherson was killed since that event. I believe the exploitation of Lisa McPherson's death has, in fact, saved other people from similar abuse. The cost of killing people like this was made so high for Scientology that they would now rather avoid subsequent occurrences.

    It's not possible to be completely perfect when you're acting with incomplete information. But I think the exploitation of an event like this is absolutely necessary. It should be aimed at preventing future occurrences, though, not just attacking the cult. For the differences between these approaches, compare what we're doing to CCHR's mindless use of attack propaganda against psychiatry based on anything bad any psychiatrist in the world has ever done, even when it's totally irrelevant to what they're supposedly criticizing psychiatry for.

    Here, if the autopsy bears it out, Jett Travolta was a victim of a specific Scientology belief, i.e. delusional hatred of psychiatry, and a specific Scientology practice, the refusal to use "psychiatric" medicine, even when necessary for some physical condition like seizures. The exploitation of the event should be used to advance the attacks on these specific practices.

    This article might be somewhat controversial or at least likely to attract trolls. I hope it's domed if it degenerates rapidly.
  2. Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Fuck it. Kid's dead. He doesn't care.
  3. TheBitch Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    No. It's exploitative to imagine that it's ok to let a kid with an apparent history of learning and developmental disabilities to die without a mention as to why. It's great to be sympathetic, but I kind of like to think if I died at 16 people might give two shits about WHY and start asking questions of my parents.
  4. Plups Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Two thoughts:

    1) IF Jett in fact died due to a seizure and was not on appropriate medication, then exposing that fact and the dangers of the scientological teachings about neurological meds and the horrors of its teachings about the disabled is not necessarily defamatory of the family. Defamation must, by definition, be false.

    2) Again, assuming that the findings bear out the theory, the action may be hurtful to the family, who may not want to face or be confronted by the reality, but being hurtful and being harmful are two different things.

    Both of these thoughts depend upon THE TRUTH being used / exploited. And that is where, currently, we are short. We know the truth of the Scientology doctrines and practices. But we do not yet know the truth of how or whether those doctrines were practised in the case of Jett. We must be careful, therefore, not to cause damage by relying on rumours and assumptions.
  5. terryeo2 Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    When the autopsy is done, then we can figure out where to launch harpoons, or if we launch harpoons at all.

    Right now prepping for two possibilities is in order: What do we do if Jett died because of lack of proper medication, and what do we do if he was given the proper medication?
  6. Forseti Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?


    That is the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time......anyways.....

    IMHO, it would be in VERY poor taste to use the death of Jett to protest $cientology. Whether nutso John and Kelly are $cilons or not, they are grieving like any parent would over their dead child.

    There may some day be a time and a place to remind people of the death of Jett, but now would be a detirment to Anonymous. Besides, the official autopsy results are not in.

    I would not be surprised, like the reports say, if he did in fact have a seizure and the cause of death was not the seizure, but the fall and subsequent head injury he sustained.

    Either way, now is NOT the time! Leave it alone for a while. Get the facts and let the parents grieve.
  7. JMac85 Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    But if they're responsible for his death by the ignorant tenants of the cult, they don't deserve to grieve...
  8. Vir Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    We should bide our time and watch the autopsy report closely.

    Here's an eerily similar care where somebody is exploiting an autism-related death:
  9. the_cloak Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    The cult is the one that is most likely to be exploitive here. From what ExOT8Michael said in another post... scientology tries to control the entire grieving process and to profit from it as well. This is unlike any other religion and raises further questions as to whether scientology is a religion or a business.

    We should focus on this if and only if it becomes clear they are using this tragedy to milk Travolta for money and/or if it becomes clear that scientology strong armed them from giving their son live saving medication against the advice of a doctor.

    No pickets of the funeral for Gods sake.
  10. Oswald2001 Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Hopefully, the pain of this situation will be enough to wake up the Travolta family.

    Enough so that they flee The Evil Cult.


    Let us welcome such an occasion...should it occur.


    Besides, "He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.".
  11. Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    show that this is the result of scientology doctrine when applied as directed

    show that even high ranking well respected <spit> scientologists like John Travolta are hypocrites when it comes to obeying scientology's batshiat insane doctrine
  12. TheBitch Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Precisely! The "best" $cientology can hope from this is that Travolta and Preston gave the kid meds imho. This way they can blame them and the meds for failing; point to the use of the meds as the failure of the OT's not the "tech;" and then help them through their understandable shame and grieving process for their own failure to "properly care for" their son.

    That, as I see it, is $cilontololligy's ONLY way out of this mess. Quite lulzy actually. To support the idea, they may actually have to bribe a coroner to say there were drugs present rather than absent!

    /me chicken

    Heh, good freakin KFC!

    Edit: I forgot, "... and after the fact wind up Travolta's soul lock, stock, and barrel. They already own Preston's, but people still wonder about JohnnyBoy and if he's totally "in."
  13. Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    It is harmful and wrong if our investigations don't help at all. If it, however, sheds light on the cult's beliefs having a part in this kid's death, and it potentially saves the lives of others, then it is fully justified.

    Informing others using extreme examples never hurt anyone. A little shock goes a long way.
  14. JFawkeson Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Whether Sci beliefs contributed to Jett's death or not, it is freaking appalling that the Travoltas' 'religion' would be anything but supportive and comforting at a time like this. Some religion, eh? (I linked to Michael's thread, for noob convenience.)

    Fucking THIS.



    WAKE UP, JOHN!
  15. Vir Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    I agree.

    If they get caught trying to do this, it would be priceless. They wouldn't need to bribe the coroner though, but find one corruptible doctor which they could pay to claim had treated him.

    Now there's a mindfuck.
  16. TheBitch Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    No dude. That's $cilontololligy. To me, they think precisely like VERY unethical, immoral, willing to do just about anything, lawyers. Totally predictable, and notice how the heat is off Cruise / &quot;Valkyrie,&quot; and how his freaked out &quot;MY LIFE'S IN DANGER!!!&quot; partyv&amp;n apparently involved shout out in the press is just a memory.

    It's like playing chess. Get too focused on Jett Travolta and they put in a NarCONon somewhere in Texas while you're busy getting them thrown out of New Mexico.

    time-cover.402x536x8.gif

    &quot;Time,&quot; didn't put tentacles on the volcano just because they thought it looked cute and made a subtle joke about Xemu/Xenu.
  17. tazor Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    I don't think it's wrong as long as we focus on calling out the cult about this rather then the Travolta's. They are just brainwashed public, even though they are celebs.

    Moxon's case was different. He is a high ranking scilon who knows, and has participated in. the dirty tricks. He knew exactly what happened to his daughter and chose to ignore it and stay in the cult.
  18. whoever Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    I don't agree. I don't see them as evil. They didn't set out to be sucked into a cult and turned into braindead ronbots. The CoS has fucked with their minds. I don't approve of their "religion" or the things they do to further it, but I do have some compassion for them.
  19. anyjane Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    How to say this without coming off as totally crass.

    People who really want to be famous will use most any tool available. Scientology at one time was an industry networking machine for music, film, publishing, etc (and still tries to be). And it appeals to the "id" factor/improving your "craft" and pampering to the "beautiful people".

    They use each other. If up and coming celebrities get sucked in because they feel it is to their advantage, don't have a lot of empathy for that. Their kids, that's something different. They did not get to choose.
  20. Optimisticate Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    The problem is that this criticism has been out there for a while. Some consider it morbid to continue the criticism and speculation now that he has passed on.
  21. Oswald2001 Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?


    Many people in Hollywood will stop at nothing to get what they want.

    They will lie, steal, cheat, con, beg and whore.

    Whatever it takes.

    You may want to do a little digging on the particulars of any 'relationship' between John Travolta and Robert Stigwood from when JT was just starting to break big.
  22. whoever Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Well, you do have a point. People who crave fame and being one of the "beautiful people" have very different values from me. But not all people who want to be famous join Scientology--they network in other ways and are lucky enough not to fall into the Scientology trap. So are they more deserving of my compassion when tragedy occurs? I don't think so.
  23. Buttons Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    We learn by example.

    My hope is that current Scientologists that look up to John Travolta and Kelly Preston as having achieved the highest levels in COS, realize that they do not have the "Super Powers" that they themselves are spending so much time/money to achieve.

    OT super powers do not exist.
    Money does not help you avoid life's tragedies.

    It really doesn't matter what his medical condition was. What matters is that the public will now have access to the COS policies on people with disabilities. How they blame the individual for not applying the "tech" correctly.

    How wrong it is to blame the parents for the disability of a child.

    Fair Use Laws, should enable journalists to tell the full story, with the information that Anonymous has spent the last year flooding the internet with.

    My hope is that Jett will end up being the Hero in this.
  24. anyjane Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Sorry, I jumped into broader scope there. I was pointing out celebrity scientologists as "victims" of scientology.

    When a death happens I feel the same as I would with some kid in my local area that I don't know that also doesn't have famous parents and will probably not have much media coverage. Empathy- yes. The same amount (removed as this does not affect me personally). Though Hollywood deaths are "sexy" and feed the beast. Look at the amount of media coverage and talk here.

    ***


    Buttons, k- I think you got it. So-called "super powers" didn't do shit to prevent this. Now that's a good thing to run with, IMO.
  25. 3rdMan Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Scientology uses its celebrity base to make Scienfaggotry look good and proper. What complaint do they have when it backfires?

    I'd like to see what the press, if anything reacts to this. But yeah, most people who take interest will judge for themselves. However, if someone asks me what I think about Jett's death, I'll tell them about Scientology's stance against psychology/psychiatry, then ask the someone what they can conclude.
  26. kitfisto Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Look , while I am sympathetic for their loss . It IS a tragedy , as it would be for any of us . Whether or not you think the Travoltas are "evil" , the facts are that they are scientologists and that means they are striving for a cleared planet . Which is obviously the whole "you're either with us or against us. If you are against us then you will be eliminated quietly and without sorrow " .THAT is the whole point of scientology , world fucking domination . Thats not a tinfoil hat worthy statement . That is their stated goal . That is what the Travoltas believe . I feel that ANYONE regardless of religion , that truely believes that is fundementally fucked up . Are the Travoltas evil ? In my opinion no , just extremely gullible and egocentric . Will they learn anything from this , time will tell . Are we exploiting Jetts death , I wouldn't use that word . It seems too negative . We can use it as a platform to bring greater awareness of the dangerous beliefs these people hold dear .
  27. Exstaff Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    ^EXACTLY. They need extensive deprogramming! About 64 intensives each by the most dispassionate psyches evah.
  28. Consensus Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    I absolutely believe anonymous should fully utilize this opportunity to discuss the failures of Scientology on an international stage. But I disagree with you 100%.

    I would not accuse Travolta of abuse or neglect. He was a true believer and he loved his son. This was a dangerous mix, and the 'tech' instructed him to fail to do what was best for his son. But Travolta truly believed he was doing what was BEST for his son. He was mistaken. It is that error we must point out, that error we must exploit. We do not need to tar and feather the Travoltas; no, we should acknowledge that they loved Jett very much, and will be grieving their loss for some time. But we should point out that the loss was quite possibly a result of fraud. They were duped.

    Travolta bet on the wrong horse. Turns out, Scientology is not science, scientology provides nothing of medical value, and scientology discourages individuals (and parents) from utilizing legitimate science and medical technology.

    But I strongly discourage any suggestion that Travolta did not love his son, or does not deserve to feel grief over his passing. I discourage any accusation that Travolta was abusive or negligent. The fact is, Scientology is our target - and we should attack IT.
  29. Erra Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Agree with everything Concensus just said.

    John obviously loved Jett very very much, from every possible account. He also firmly believes in Scientology. Those two things turned out to be mutually exclusive.

    Think about this: Jett might well have died while John was giving him a touch assist. How would you feel if your son died in your arms even though you were doing everything you were told would save him? Now add this; John may someday realize that Jett's death could have been prevented, if not for following Scientology.

    How could you live with yourself knowing those things? That you couldn't save your son and you could have prevented his death.


    I do fucking grieve. But not for Jett. I'm grieving for John. I would not wish that situation on my worst enemy.

    Fuck scientology.
  30. onewhogets Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Agree 100% with you Consensus

    Scientology is our target.

    Stay on target!
  31. NotBobMinton Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Point well taken. The topic of autism & scientology's treatment of it needs to be discussed. But it would be foolish to turn it into a public fan-fair like the sci's did.

    Remember, there is a family that hopefully is able to grieve... up until the point their 'bad' emotions get audited out at $1,000/hour.
  32. whoever Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    ^^^ THIS. Thanks, you have summed up very well what I was thinking but couldn't articulate.
  33. Black Moriah Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Good job Consensus, I agree 100%
  34. Buttons Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Erra-
    Glad to see that I wasn't the only one thinking about this possibility.
  35. Kilia Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    Bravo Consensus!
    <3
  36. eddieVroom Member

    Re: Is it exploiting Jett to criticize the cult over his death?

    I disagree STRONGLY. News stories have a very short shelf life, and the time to work the comments section is when people are actually reading the articles.

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