Firstly most of us are amused by your rather than confused by your poor comm-tech and secondly, Hubbard was famous for spinning limitless BS about his credentials, education, he was a liar an convicted conman how in the hell is that conclusion wrong? The fact is he lied about pretty much everything about himself, not even slightly competent to provide any kind of objective proof behind his fradulent claims such as his entire religion and his outright dangerous rundowns Hubbard was epitome of imperfection, drug addict, convicted criminal, involved in multiple acts of petty crime and schizophrenic to boot what sort of "clear was this scum bucket. None of us is perfect but concept of perfection is a dangerous delusion anyway. Its not a excuse to dismiss his fraudulent claims. He was bullshit through and through there us nothing to be added to the discussion on that matter, unless you want to go into a futile quest to confirm all of his claims? he was a mentally unstable convict with rich history of criminal activities, are you saying that we shouldn't take him for what he was? it doesn't help either since he has entire cult glorifying his fraudulent titles and accomplishments. Hubbard was far more cruel, twisted or outright evil than any of us. he wasn't weaker than rest of us in fact he was inferior to all decent human beings for that matter. Just because most of us have far exceeded Hubbard in every mean imaginable doesn't mean that we couldn't call out his BS.
There is no need to school you in folly, or obviousness. Got them down pat. You don't need validation, surely.
I have added some of the materials in this thread to the OP. However, I am struggling to find the following: Jesse Prince talking about Hubbard specifically. David Mayo talking about Hubbard (he may have done so in affidavit) Laurel Sullivan (testified in some court cases, but I can’t seem to find her testimony online) Any more? There are a few small references here and there (For example, Bernie Green makes a small reference), but I think these are too lacking in content to put them front and centre in this thread.
Word fail. Have you used hubbard's study tech? Let me put this in simple terms: It is possible to be objectively wrong. There are some things which are opinions, beliefs, interpretations and others which are hard facts. If there are three apples on a table and someone says there are two then they are wrong. Not, 'interpreting' there to be two, or had come to some different conclusion about what 'two' is, or chosen a different definition of 'two', or denying the concept of numbers, but plainly wrong. If one person says he is a tomato and another disagrees with him, then they can't both be right. And once one side provides actual hard evidence that the other cannot refute then the issue moves away from theory and opinion and moves into fact - that one is demonstrably correct and the other is demonstrably wrong. Unless one wants to debate the validity of the method being used to test then the issue is done. No. Really, really no. I am far, far, far from perfect. But I can confidently and vehemently speak out against evil. I don't watch the news, see some feature about a serial killer and think 'ah well, I'm also bad so that person isn't evil, badder and wronger than me'. Do you want every post that people make here against hubbard to end with 'but I'm not perfect so I won't pass negative comment about hubbard's abuses'?
you're a better man than I... "AFaceInTheCrowd" on ESMB has a detailed story of the Phat Fraud's incompetence, http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?21698-Shooting-Stars
I don't know what to say. I don't have the vocabulary to express what I want to express properly and clearly and into in a million insufferably long and convoluted words. Thanks for the considerate rational response. It is well thought out and I see what you mean. I cant go further with the point due to my own weaknesses as a writer/thinker. People can and will do what they want, I can will do what I want. Hopefully we will all wind up standing in a good place together that works for all of us with each of us happy with the process that lead us there.
Thank you for playing. You said all that needed to be said, right there. I hope you don't waste too many more of your years putting forward arguments from ignorance as worthwhile .
I wont waste one more minute being the annoying condescending house guest from hell. I will leave the $200 bottle of wine I brought though.
Fucker could have given exactly the same spiel about Charles Manson or Marshall Applewhite from heaven's gate or my last turd. Find and replace 'Hubbard' in his posts with 'Ariel Castro' and it makes as much sense as before. .Pure, content free sophistry.
I like reverso more than I thought I would. He has a wicked sense of humor and has us spinning in circles trying to prove him wrong. He's made me laugh a few times. I vote reverso for the new Herro. -Herro
Another addition: Kima Douglas Interview with her here: http://www.xenu-directory.net/mirrors/www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/bfm/interviews/kima.htm
Thank you. Jesse talked about Hubbard in the Germany videos (I posted one), also talked about Hubbard's death. Have to find that one. I posted a Laurel Sullivan quote re. how Hubbard treated Quentin. Bill Franks is another one. Cowboy on ESMB is another. There are dozens more but I'm tired, very late here. Please don't close thread yet, will work on this tmrw.
you pull out the "sophistry" card when directing it at others. As if you are above the use of it when it suits you. Like "ad hominem" , "troll", and a whole bunch of other terms that are part of the internet vocabulary always levelled at others even when they might apply to yourselves an equal amount of the time. As for convicted or people who have committed acts that I agree are unacceptable, I never said L Ron Hubbard was one thing or not something, I simply said that the experience of him may or may not exactly match the stories and accounts of him. Hannah Arendt said of her directly observing Adolf Eichmann that she was surprised that he had no horns and no tail and Arendt concluded, that Eichmann was just a man who had not thought his actions through. A person who had done no thinking for himself. She said alot more but that is the snippet that I think applies to what I want to say and that is people are not what we build them up to be in our minds. Yes we are flawed, ever single day humans do stupid sh-t to each other but we have no horns or tail as protestors here would like to have everyone believe re: L Ron Hubbard. I know he was just a person who wound up in in a position of authority and he may or may not have said and done things, I would think were unacceptable and even criminal. I do take the case that a good part of what was said and posted in whyweprotest.net on this topic is too substantial to not be true or at least partially true but again, I will never know for sure. I am comfortable in that doubt. To each their own.
I’ll have a look. Iirc he only makes a few small references, but I may be mistaken. Hoping to get her full testimony. I have reached out to Caroline on this. Good catch. His affidavit is gold so I’ll go with that. Going to avoid his interview with Tom Smith due to the (blatantly false) MP murder claim. I don’t suppose you know his/her name? Not likely. When you have manure it is always worth trying to grow some flowers. Also forgot his wife’s affidavit: http://www.lermanet.com/barwell/sara-northrup-aff.txt
On OCMB "Turtlez" wrote exactly like that. On FactNet "J.C. Wiseman" wrote exactly like that. If you ignore him and his posts he will have nothing to write about. Carry on.
Well, this> Good Dorg, sounds like Vad in an honest sober moment *ahem~cough*. Annnnnnyways, transparent attempts to sway the choir are transparent, and the OP's plan/point, whatever the fuck it was, does indeed smell badly of someone trying to desperately to play chess with checker pieces whilst firing on all one cylinder with a bad air/fuel mixture. Mayhaps he does not realize this is not a 'fence-sitter' zone, that, for the most, 'we' have well informed/formed opinions on the subject of Hubbard and his confabulated abstractions. Here is a wonderful collection of all the 'good' that scientology has done to people, hundreds of them: A testimony of the 'tech's profound effect on the gullible and easily coersed ~ http://theyshouldnothavedied.wordpress.com/ With that I am backing away from this thread for the time being, as it seems sort of redundant. There are many threads that have already become compilations without the obvious trolling/fishing. This troll appears at first blush not so much trying to 'paint the pig' as it is slapping on a thin coat of primer so the gilding sticks
Hon, there were many folks who were taken in or impressed by the qualities that Ron purported to have. The thing is that for people who sincerely studied his lectures and read his writings, it is significant to point out that one of the "end phenomenas" that lrh wanted folks to believe about him so that he may control them and their lives is that he is "source" - an omniscient being far superior to all of us humble humans. I imagine that you may know that. In layman's terms, basically he is using his own terms to basically say that he is a god, and to not doubt or question him at all. The most "spiritual" and wise people i've met are also the most down to earth and humble, imo - and are honest and compassionate, with a lot of that compassion for others coming from the pains of their own personal life struggles. Also, Doubt is not a crime. Thinking for yourself is healthy. (so, to be comfortable with "doubt" is a good thing, and of course, you have the freedom and free-will to believe whatever you want, and to change your mind about anything whenever you want.)
You lost me a bit ....who here is talking about being "impressed: with L Ron Hubbard or people who are impressed with L Ron Hubbard? This is a guy thing I think. All males want the world to think they are Gods of a kind and some kind of source,, the head of the family or the tribe or the group whatever. Hubbard would not have been unique or special or original to have been caught up in that if he was. Men seem to be aching to be admired and it might explain the wave of superhero movies flooding the market in recent years. L Ron Hubbard was not alone in wanting others to look up to him. I understand that because i want that as well. It is probably what people call an ego trip or whatever. Sounds like the pitfall all people who exercise leadership face at one point or another, and each must make the choice to abuse the power other people grant them or not. Sounds like L Ron Hubbard may have come to believe his own hype and wanted others to view him as some kind of spiritual Guru, or master patterning himself after the Guru, master model in the east. Personally I think that is a flawed model and keeps people weak and not thinking for themselves which is what the world needs most. Maybe it made more sense ion the distant past, it certainly does not make sense today. Sounds about right. Yes.
Lots of people who knew Hubbard personally are featured in this documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=QCWRbgIkFJ8
Having proved yourself to be an incoherent stooge badly in need of a single worthwhile thought, don't you think it would be a good opportunity to demonstrate you have at least the dignity to keep your word?
Nice find! L Ron Hubbard Jr (Ron DeWolfe) television interview about L Ron Hubbard: Monica Pignotti. There is little personal observation of Hubbard, but lots of detail of things he ordered, personal confirmation of occurrences on the ship (including the "Rock Concert" my ex-twin Janet told me about - it was in Madiera), a great timeline with dates for events and a lot about Quentin. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/pignotti/#how Andre Tabayoyan. I can't seem to find the lawsuit he filed with a number of others regarding the Hubbard Estate, but I did find this affidavit on Lermanet: http://www.lermanet.com/cos/andre.html
Found the transcript. http://www.xenu.net/entheta/entheta/media/tv/secret/secret3.html What a find! Testimonies of time spent with Hubbard/on the ships include: Jim DinCalci Robert Vaughn Young Hana Eltringham Cyril Vosper Gerry Armstrong Pam Kemp Victoria Downsborough Mike Goldstein
I bet every one of those stooges are living happy, productive lives carrying on the good work of David miscavige .
Oh, its a good thing reverso never joined the COS. With retarded thought processes like that he would never be able to extract himself - no basis to find Hubbard wrong. Perhaps what we are seeing here is the development of the COS salvage attempt they can run when the actual marks suss that Hubbard was a proven scoundrel.
Those who knew Hubbard who weren't scientologists: Sam Moskowitz, science fiction historian, during meeting of the Eastern Science Fiction Association states: "I always knew he was exceedingly anxious to hit big money - he used to say he thought the best way to do it would be to start a cult." Sam Merwin, then the editor of the Thrilling SF magazines confirms this: "Around this time he was invited to address a science fiction group in Newark hosted by the writer, Sam Moskowitz. `Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous,' he told the meeting. `If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion.' quoted in Bare Faced Messiah p.133 from 1986 interview. Winter of 1946/47. tion on (7 November 1948), as quoted in a 1994 affidavit by Sam Moskowitz http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard Jay Kay Klein: Reports that Hubbard talked of starting a religion to avoid taxes in 1947. Neison Himmel (shared a room with Hubbard in Pasadena in 1945): "Whenever he was talking about being hard up he often used to say that he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion." quoted in Bare Faced Messiah p.117 from 1986 interview. http://www.bible.ca/scientology-1million-start-a-religion.htm In a conversation with Theodore Sturgeon, as reported by Mike Jittlov: Back in the 1940's, L. Ron Hubbard was a member of the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society (when its old clubhouse was just north of Wilshire Blvd). Ted vividly recalled being a few yards from Hubbard, when he became testy with someone there and retorted, "Y'know, we're all wasting our time writing this hack science fiction! You wanta make real money, you gotta start a religion! Reportedly Sturgeon also told this story to others. Theodore Sturgeon was one of the truly great science fiction writers, and someone whose word and memories were trusted. (John W. Campbell commented that Sturgeon should have written the definitive history of SF fandom.) Mike Jittlov is a respected Hollywood filmmaker and stopmotion actor, Lloyd Arthur Eshbach was a science fiction writer and publisher between 1929 and 1957. His autobiography, says on pages 125 and 126 (about the events of 1948 and 1949): I think of the time while in New York I took John W. Campbell Marty Greenberg, and L. Ron Hubbard to lunch. Someone suggested a Swedish smorgasbord, and I had my first--and last--taste of kidney. Yuck! Afterward we wound up in my hotel room for related conversation.The incident is stamped indelibly in my mind because of one statement that Ron Hubbard made. What led him to say what he did I can't recall--but in so many words Hubbard said:"I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is!" To summarize: we have eight witnesses: Neison Himmel, Sam Merwin, Sam Moskowitz, Theodore Sturgeon, Lloyd Arthur Eshbach, and the three unnamed witnesses of Robert Vaughn Young. There is some confusion and doubt about one of the five (Sam Moskowitz). Two are reported via Russel Miller: one is reported via Mike Jittlov: one reported in his autobiography; and one reported in an affidavit. The reports describe different events, meaning that Hubbard said it at least five times, in five different venues - definitely not just once. And the Church's official disclaimer is now reportedly a flat lie. Conclusion: He definitely said it (and more than once). http://www.bible.ca/scientology-1million-start-a-religion.htm
'Sure, Hubbard was a lovable rogue and increasingly demented, but that's no reason to dismiss the idea of paying $100 to find out if 'going ot ' does something for you. OK, $5?'
Jesse made heaps of statements, but they've been scattered all over the Internet. His book should be out soon (fingers crossed) Just found this. Lermanet put together some of Jesse Prince's affidavits. There is much, much more: “During my time as an executive and senior executive in RTC, David Miscavige was the decision maker concerning all legal suits filed by any of Scientology’s corporations. Miscavige had complete authority concerning all litigation within Scientology, and he made the final decisions as to how each case would be litigated as well as which lawyers would be used in each and every case. Miscavige had two Scientology staff, Marty Rathbun and Lyman Spurlock, who assisted in Scientology litigation matters, but Miscavige always made the final decisions. CSI majorly operated on orders from LRH, which were called advices to avoid legal problems for himself and Scientology, since he supposedly had not managed any of the corporations of Scientology since 1966, when he had officially resigned as Executive Director. From 1982 through 1986, LRH would use a dictaphone to dictate his orders to the various Scientology corporations. The tapes from the dictation would be delivered by LRH’s top aides Pat or Annie Broeker to the Scientology location at Gilman Hot Springs. At this location a special unit, headed by a staff member named Susie Bennick, would transcribe the tapes and issue hard copy dispatches to various executives and staff of ASI, RTC, CSI, CST and CSC. Often, these dispatches had certain time deadlines for compliance as mandated by LRH. I’ve seen as many as 150 orders dictated by LRH in one run. Often the staff who had orders issued to them were not allowed to sleep until they complied to the LRH order issued to them. David Miscavige oversaw the transcribing operation and enforced compliance to LRH orders by staff in all Scientology corporations." http://www.lermanet.com/jesseprince.htm ... "I had a lot of trouble training the NOTs auditors. Some auditors grumbled that Mayo was making up the NOTs tech as he went along. Others were upset because they thought Mayo had a hidden data line to LRH. In Scientology, a “hidden data line” means someone is getting info from LRH that isn’t written in a policy, bulletin or tape. In fact, as I would learn when I was promoted to RTC three years later, Mayo was making it up as he went along because he was the main author of the NOTs tech. It was also true that he had a hidden data line to LRH because Mayo had been auditing LRH on NOTs before anyone else knew anything about it. Mayo’s name was on every bulletin concerning NOTs, and rightly so, because he wrote the bulletins." http://www.lermanet.com/jesseprince.htm Here is Bill Franks (statement posted by gwells), former ED Int COS, jumping right in with a personal story about L Ron Hubbard. This is the one I was looking for - it's a pretty special post. He was personally trained by Hubbard. He also has/(had??) threads and posts under Bill Franks on ESMB (later changed his avatar name) and confirmed that was his statement, but I am having trouble finding these. Wonder if the ID was cancelled later? http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?22265-Bill-Frank-s-story-about-brainwashing-(thread-merge) EDIT: FOUND Bill Franks ID on ESMB. Karen de la Carriere and others confirm it is him, he confirms he wrote that (posting as gwells) and all his posts are available on ESMB: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...ing-(thread-merge)/page16&p=542353#post542353 POST #152 of thread
Reverso reminds me a lot of Michael A. Hobson Independent Scientologist Who coincidentally posted today for the first time in 3 months.
Here's a discussion on some of the satanic worship influences one finds prevalent in Scientology today. http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_and_4.php
Didn't James Randi meet hubbard at one point too skip to 1:49 He met Hubbard in another group called trapdoor spiders Hubbard hanged around far more successful writers like Asimov
