Mark Bunker - Scammer or salt of the earth good guy?

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by TerapinEd, Nov 1, 2014.

  1. ArnieLerma Member

    well, restart a private conversation and we could finish, today is the 1st day of the rest of our lives

    Arnie Lerma
    PS: one can trust that a man has good intent while not trusting in their judgement
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  2. ArnieLerma Member

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  3. Anonymous Member

    I beg to differ. It is obvious you are a Bunker fanboy. Good on ya! Some people aren't. My dislike for Bunker is well known. Exactly what revenge am I seeking here? Bunker is the one who needs to keep his ego in check. The man begged for rent money. Rent money! Bunker needs to admit Alex Gibney beat him to the punch and nothing he can produce can compare to the now Peabody Award winning documentary by Gibney. Once he deflates his ego he can go back to work and hope for another local daytime Emmy for being a camera man.
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  4. fishypants Moderator

    Surely you can't be serious!
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  5. Ersatz Global Moderator

    And don't call me Shirley!
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  6. xander meehan Member

    Very Very Very well said...
    I truly hope that people take this to heart...
    Yet, WBM needs to finish the goods and move forward....
    As you know, I am extremely old Anony...
    WBM must finish this film.... must finish... and display its most bountiful goodness for all to see...
    Xander (Saxxx)
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  7. [IMG]]

    4 years later...


    Looks like 8109 has retreated with tail between legs, so I am going to declare victory with a bloated statement.

    The film was crowdfunded with WBM having made public statements to his funders re: the film's release date (or year, at the least.) The people who pledged their funds wanting to see the film would have given their money under the impression that the film would come out in 2012, and then 2013, and then 2014, and then 2015, and now 2016.

    This isn't a one-time extension. It's a chronically-late project.

    Four years is not an insignificant fraction of a human lifetime, either - it's 5% if we call an 80-year lifespan average. It's probably not fair to say that 5% of his backers as of the year 2012 have died, since they're certainly not random-normally distributed among all age groups, but there are definitely elderly Scientology watchers, and those in poor health as well. Therefore, it is probably safe to assume that at least some small percentage of his backers have died and will never see the film.

    That wouldn't be as much of an issue for someone who needed a one-time extension, but it is certainly a problem for a chronically-late crowdfunded project, 4 years overdue.

    (I'm pretty sure RolandRB would have liked to see the film if it were finished on time. Idk if he donated, but if he did, he would be at least one person who didn't get what he paid for. Parentheses due to speculation, but a fact-check would be appreciated.)

    All this (parenthetical excluded) adds up to a legitimate critique of WBM's conduct, based solely on public statements and public fundraising pages and common knowledge of human longevity. No motivation for revenge or bruised ego is necessary to lodge this critique - an Indiegogo QA/factchecker employee could easily come to the same conclusions as I have.

    WBM's attendance at Flag Down is also a subject worthy of legitimate, fact-based critique. Don't get me started on it, 8109, because I can go on and on.

    If it bothers you to have the facts re-stated about Flag Down or about Knowledge Report, then you should probably take your opinions to another thread. I have a long memory and I know how to search WWP, and I don't mind exercising both to set the record straight.

    Bear in mind, I am not continually posting facts here out of malice; it is in response to your accusation of malice.

    I'll continue posting for as long as you're accusing folks who participate in this discussion of being disrespectful malicious WBM haters. Some of them probably are, but most of us also see that there are legitimate, factual lines of evidence for being critical of WBM's conduct.

    The hope, for at least some, is that critical examination and accountability will encourage some positive outcomes: the timely release of the film as well as an improvement in WBM's behavior and disposition.
  8. RavenEyes Member

    I went back to see how and when this thread started, and found this early post by RolandRB from 2014. :(
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  9. ArnieLerma Member

    Thank you...If one person benefits from these insights that took me 25 years to learn well enough to describe makes it worth the trouble. This morning by 2PM Eastern eight readers have looked at this page, from WWP, hopefully gleaning some insight that will accompany them forevermore. However, if I had known in 1993....(sigh) what a long strange road it has been.

    And yes WBM needs a kick in the posterior.. but I believe he is doing the best he can do, nonetheless..and I grow less inclined to place demands on those over 55 or so because at 65 I find I'm pleasantly surprised each morning when I awaken to a new day.
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  10. xander meehan Member

    On this note... I would like to make a statement... Please read the following article... and my closing statement...

    Jen Yamato
    Daily Beast
    02.13.16 8:45 PM ET
    Katie Holmes’s Big Middle Finger to Scientology

    The former Mrs. Tom Cruise has rebounded with one of the finest performances of her career in
    "Touched With Fire," a film about the importance of psychiatry.

    The former Mrs. Tom Cruise has rebounded with one of the finest performances of her career in Touched With Fire, a film about the importance of psychiatry.

    In the seven years Katie Holmes spent trapped in her heavily guarded relationship with Tom Cruise, we hardly knew her. The doe-eyed actress with the steely-soft smile landed nary a choice role of note during her high-profile TomKat years, while fans watched her disappear behind a prim bob and a wearied Mona Lisa smile as the paparazzi flashes popped.
    That’s why, when she split from Cruise in 2012 after nearly six years of marriage, the world exhaled on her behalf. But when the newly single Holmes returned to the acting game, she notched mostly disappointing results. Now—finally—Holmes is rebuilding her movie career with her best starring role in a decade. Even better: Her new pro-psychiatry film is a giant middle finger to Cruise’s beloved Church of Scientology.
    Cruise’s devotion to Scientology set off alarm bells back in 2005 when he blasted Brooke Shields for taking antidepressants to battle post-partum depression. Talking to Matt Lauer on The Today Show, he became visibly agitated, decrying the practice of psychiatric medicine. “You don’t know the history of psychiatry,” he insisted in front of fans who’d come to see him promote his sci-fi blockbuster War of the Worlds. “I do.”

    The battle cry earned a sharp rebuke from the American Psychiatric Association. “It is irresponsible for Mr. Cruise to use his movie publicity tour to promote his own ideological views and deter people with mental illness from getting the care they need,” said APA president Dr Steven Sharfstein. But the church’s violent opposition to shrinkdom and generally accepted psychiatric treatment of mental illness dated back decades, of course.

    Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard hated “psychs” and insisted they were shady and unethical. Controversial Scientology leader David Miscavige reportedly made the organization’s anti-psychiatry agenda plain in a 1995 address in Copenhagen: “Objective one—place Scientology at the absolute center of society. Objective two—eliminate psychiatry in all its forms.” And the film Going Clear claimed that Cruise’s second wife, Nicole Kidman, was labeled a “Potential Trouble Source” because her father was a renowned psychologist in his native Australia.

    So it’s not hard to guess that Holmes’s ex and his Scientology crew probably won’t give rave reviews to the new indie drama Touched With Fire, about two bipolar poets who meet and fall in love while stuck in the same psychiatric ward.

    Given the reach and fearsome reputation of the church, it’s no small gesture to see Holmes, newly freed of the shadow of Scientology, taking on a film whose messages include an unequivocal endorsement of psychiatry—let alone one with such a clear message. The 37-year-old stars as Carla, a bipolar poet who checks herself into a psych ward during a particularly intense episode. There, she meets another bipolar patient, Marco (Luke Kirby), who goes by the name “Luna” and believes he’s from another planet.

    Together they ponder the link between mental illness and creative artistry, fall in love, reject their meds, make manic art and love, and send their concerned families into a panic as they try to make a life together sans treatment.

    It all comes crashing down as their lives-off-meds spiral out of control, one mania-induced crisis after another. Author and psychologist Kay Redfield Jamison, who penned the book that writer-director Paul Dalio based the film on, even makes a cameo as herself advocating better bipolar living through medication.

    “I gained a greater empathy for people who are struggling with mental illness,” Holmes told More last month. “Before the movie, I’d hear something about it and think, ‘Wow. But that’s over there.’ Unfortunately, we’re quick to judge, especially in this day of social media and the Internet—which I think is an ugly-maker. Everybody looks ugly when they’re on the Internet. But I wouldn’t want to live a flat life, with no pain.”

    Holmes has played relatively nice and NDA-safe so far in her post-divorce interviews, deathly careful to focus on motherhood and positive messaging rather than tabloid-fodder Cruise chatter. On the promo tour for Touched With Fire, she’s been refreshingly alivechanneling Beyoncé, the Queen of self-empowered fierceness, and boxing our Ryan Reynolds on The Tonight Show while playing a round of Musical Beers. It’s as if the mojo she lost is finally being replenished. Hopefully that carries through in her creative choices from this point on, too. To see where they went astray, let’s rewind through the last decade in Katie Holmes, Movie Star.

    Holmes, solidly successful off a series-long tenure on Dawson’s Creek, was working her way through the start of a promising career-making run when she began dating Cruise, her onetime celebrity crush in the summer of 2005. In her life B.C. (Before Cruise), her varied filmography showed range, ambition, and a daring indie spirit, from Go to Pieces of April to Batman Begins and beyond. But while her turn as a morally flexible reporter in Thank You For Smoking drew raves, it also marked the end of the beginning for Holmes.

    Holmes has made a point to say that her marriage to Cruise never prevented her from working, per se. But said work during the TomKat years tells a dire story. Over at Rotten Tomatoes, her 2006-2012 period is a telling collection of rotten green splats and buffer years of understandable inactivity—one in 2006 when she stepped away from the limelight to give birth to daughter Suri, and another when she split from Cruise and the Church of Scientology in 2012.
    Holmes’s Cruise years onscreen, meanwhile, are bookended by two of her highest-profile duds. Start with Mad Money and you trace a path through indies that fell flat (The Romantics; The Extra Man; The Son of No One), to the only Adam Sandler blemish on her résumé: Jack & Jill. Hey, maybe Holmes has a forgivable excuse for making bad choices back then. What’s Al Pacino’.

    The rebuilding period hasn’t been without its hiccups. Holmes gave Broadway a shot but mostly stuck to the screen. Until Touched With Fire, not a single one of Holmes’s recent films could be considered either a critical or commercial success. She’d eased herself back into the game in the Chekhov-update ensemble Days and Nights, but despite packing serious indie-bait talent with William Hurt, Ben Whishaw, and Allison Janney among the cast, the film came and went in the fall of 2014, earning a blistering 0 percent Tomatometer rating. It was, and still is, the worst-reviewed film of Holmes’s career.

    Holmes had been chased her entire career by the ghost of Joey Potter, everyone’s favorite girl-next-door. Being publicly stuck in a celebrity marriage to a global megastar defined by his wacky outbursts and perennially “on” charisma had dimmed Holmes’s spunky persona. Audiences were barely seeing her on the mainstream screen as Holmes opted for smaller projects. She dipped her toes back in the Hollywood studio world in 2014 with a supporting turn in The Giver, but even that wannabe YA lit blockbuster was a box office disappointment.

    Later that year, Holmes mixed it up as a vigilante schoolteacher in the black comedy-thriller Miss Meadows. Her character, described as a “Pulp Fiction Mary Poppins,” was all about defying expectations; even the poster was The Gun in Betty Lou’s Handbag meets Serial Mom—Holmes, in a retro dress and Mary Janes, coldly pointing a pistol out of frame. While critics praised her performance, they weren’t so keen on the film itself, which was relegated to a limited release.

    In 2015, Holmes’s career approach seemed to shift. She appeared with Helen Mirren and Reynolds in the drama Woman In Gold. More significantly, she helmed, produced, and starred in her own directorial debut, All We Had, about a single mother and her 13-year-old daughter. Through it all, television had been pretty good to the Dawson’s Creek alum; now again, it gave her some of her best opportunities as an actor. She landed a Season 3 recurring role on Showtime’s edgy drama Ray Donovan, flexing rarely seen muscles as a master manipulator. After starring as Jackie Kennedy in the 2011 mini-series The Kennedys, Holmes reprises the role—this time, as Jackie O.—in Reelz’s upcoming follow-up, The Kennedys After Camelot, which she will also direct.

    It’s that spark and spirit—low-key taking on Scientology without taking on Scientology in movies like Touched With Fire, tackling surprising characters against type, and seizing control of her own destiny behind the camera—that we’d like to see more of as we enter a new age of Katie Holmes.
    “With age I’ve gained confidence,” she told More after shooting All We Had, relishing in the newfound power of directing—and directing herself. “I understand the kind of stories I want to tell. I have more experience in the business. I feel more certain.
    This may seem off topic.... but I would like to make a point... In this article it states that Coo-Coo for CoCoa Puffs was involved with the Scienos for 7 years, married and divorced after 5 years, and according to recent press this week Suri is now celebrating her 10th Birthday. If you examine the history something is queerly wrong. Suri maybe 10 years. yet as far as I know Coo-Coo did not become involved with the Scienos until she married Cruz. This is a classic example of dis information.
    No one likes being lied to, mis lead, or treated with obfuscation, and fake information....


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  11. fishypants Moderator

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  12. failboat Member

    I think I like the cut of this ornery fellow's jib.
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  13. anon8109 Member

    There is no victory to be had in this thread, unless your name rhymes with cavige.
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  14. anonysamvines Member

    Well that ain't true

    The film could be released

    That would make it Mark's victory wouldn't it?

    That would shut his critics up and allow his fanbois to crow "Told ya so"

    Or have you too given up that hope?

    The roundly declaring any criticism or questioning to be only helpful to $lappy and Co$ is very much a $cilon tactic aimed at stopping thought.
    Anons, and those who believe in freedom of speech and thought, welcome dissent, hard questions and answers.

    the checks and balances keep us honest and out of group think

    You may find it useful to ponder your stock rebuttal
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  15. anon8109 Member

    Nah, it's not about the film, it's about butthurt from flagdown.
    Film or no film, this thread will continue to be a shame on WWP until it's domed.
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  16. anonysamvines Member

    But why will it be a shame on WWP?
    Aren't we all about questioning what we are told to believe?
    To see if actions match words?

    As has been pointed out again and again this question of the funding for KR and when/if it will be released has been happening since long before Flag Down.
    Mark's actions there only exacerbated it.

    And still your response is merely to try to shame and villify anyone who questions?
    To accuse any questioner of merely benefitting Co$ and $lappy
    Never any actual rebuttal

    YOU should be ashamed of trying those tactics here on WWP

    Hell, even Sue allowed himself to be openly questioned and disparaged
    Why is Bunker immune?

    Why no answers or actual rebuttals - from either his fanbois or himself?

    Why is there still no release?
    4 years after it was supposed to be released
    Even the latest date of May 2016 is here and yet where is the film?

    And still more fundraising is going on

    Sounds a lot like what happened with Supah Powerz Building huh?

    With added shut up, don't think, don't question and just give money
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  17. I very sincerely doubt this will be domed since mod fishypants and mod Ersatz have already colorfully weighed in regarding the legitimate critique of the lateness of KR.

    I'd also dispute your assessment of the terms of victory or defeat for the parties participating in this discussion.

    I mentioned at the end of my previous post what victory is, for me - the timely release of the film, and an improvement in the behavior/disposition of WBM.

    Also, since you've once again ascribed malicious motives, here's a couple of more links to WBM's KR fundraisers I missed -
  18. anon8109 Member

    I have no problem with posts that point out that WBM is late, and I agree that finishing the movie will be a win.

    My problem is with accusations of scam and malicious intent, with people that are piling on him with venom, which is what most posts in this thread
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  19. Well, 8109. Is there a problem with recounting the content of public statements, facts, and other events leading up to and including Flag Down that has you upset? Or would that be OK with you? Can I do that without being told that I am accusing WBM of malicious intent?

    WBM was publicly told by organizers of Flag Down that his attendance could result in people at Flag Down, including its organizers, being served with the Lisa Marie Trust Injunction (LMT).

    This was a problem because some of the organizers of Flag Down, including amaX, were Clearwater Anons, and service with the LMT could curtail their protest at Flag. The organizers made it abundantly clear that WBM and others named by the LMT would not be welcome at Flag Down.

    In spite of warnings, WBM attended, and amaX was served with the LMT (I am pretty sure others were served too, but I don't want to misspeak).

    That is specifically what WBM was told not to do, and amaX now suffers exactly the consequence that she had feared - the curtailment of her protest at Flag.

    The exact chain of events leading to the disaster that amaX and other Clearwater Anons predicted could happen as a result of Flag Down happened. (It's hard for me to resist comparing amaX to Cassandra, here, because I want to stick to facts.)

    I am not attributing WBM's attendance to malice. However, I am pointing out that there is a legitimate basis for critiquing his attendance. I would also characterize his comments regarding Flag Down since then to have been unapologetic, lacking real contrition, and definitely lacking any desire to make amaX whole of the loss she suffered as a result of his attendance. That last statement may include some judgement and opinion on my part, but I really don't feel like mining for WBM's recent quotes at the moment. I will if you make me.
  20. sallysock Member

    quoted for truth.
    O, your posts are full of like.
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  21. WBM didn't curtail any protests at Flag. The protests at Flag stopped YEARS before WBM got there. Ask AMA--except she probably won't tell you.

    AMA got a PIECE OF PAPER. Why is that such a tragedy? Why is she to be pitied and consoled? She lost nothing. Why is everyone drinking the Koolaid that AMA is a poor thing who has suffered so greatly and must be pitied? It's bollocks and nauseating at the same time.
    Oh puh-leeze
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  22. anon8109 Member

    amaX did a fine job organizing flagdown, and was rudely criticized afterwards by some people over some minor imperfections. I think flagdown was made of win and I hope there will be another.

    Lots of people wanted to see WBM speak despite the risk with the injunction. I'm not sure he did the right thing showing up, but I am sure that he and others felt like it was the right thing, not because he wanted to hurt amaX or other anons, but because fuck the cult and their lawyer games. No stinking cult is going to control who we can or can't have at our own bloody conference. Well, except that sometimes the cult's bloody lawyers manage to win because we, and by we I mean amaX, don't have millions of dollars to waste on endless legal fights.

    Well, amaX tried very hard to explain to WBM about the cult's bloody lawyers and he just didn't want to believe her I suppose, or maybe he thought the cult couldn't actually get away with it. So I understand her frustration at having been right, and been ignored. But this thread attacking WBM in revenge, though it may make some people feel better, is misdirected anger. It's the bloody cult that is the root cause of this situation, and always has been.

    WBM may have misjudged, I don't know, but he's one of the most effective critics out there, and piling on him only helps the bloody cult.
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  23. anonysamvines Member

    If people from out of town wanted to hear him speak then why didn't they arrange a seperate meeting after Flag Down finished? Announce it and announce it had nothing to do with Clearwater Chanology?

    If Mark thinks fuck the cult and their lawyer games then why is he abiding so strictly to the limitations it puts on him?
    Why isn't he fighting it in court?
    Why isn't he approaching those he KNOWS are $cilons?
    Why isn't he entering the parts of the streets the injunction bans him from?

    And if you support him so much why aren't you doing it too?

    We can set up a go fund me to pay your expenses so you can get there
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  24. AmaX was served the day before Flagdown, i.e. the day before Bunker showed up. She loves to play the martyr and claim that Bunker's actions have prevented her from protesting in Clearwater, but the two are unconnected. She quit protesting in early 2012 for health reasons.
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  25. The choice was not WBM's or yours to make, but rather it should have been the choice of the one who had done the most to organize, fund-raise, plan, and host the event.

    WBM was not invited, and he overruled the decision of several organizers of the event by showing up.

    You conveniently ignored the fact that public statements were issued, because there isn't any defense. WBM is in the wrong for showing up uninvited. Accept it and accept that there is legitimate beef about it. People will continue to bring it up while WBM leaves it unresolved.
  26. anonysamvines Member

    No she says he has prevented her from ever being able to from that point on
    It is her choice to protest or not
    Same as for everyone
    He took that away

    Where are all those other protestors?
    How many of them protest anywhere?
  27. anon8109 Member

    Yeah. Even if he thinks he was right to show up, I think he owes amaX an apology for not respecting her wishes since she was the organizer, and she was in the end correct in her assessment of the situation.
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  28. anonysamvines Member

    Absolutely he does
    He isn't the only one either
    Darth Xander does too - possibly others also.

    Xander knew Bunker was going. It was arranged. They both denied it at first. Mark said it was a spur of the moment thing. Stuck to that story for a bit. Till he got too much flak for it. Then stated on here that he and Xander had arranged it beforehand. More lies from Bunker. Also yet another instance of him doing damage. By publicly stating that certain Anons were in fact acting in concert with a named party to the injunction. Yet another bit of the story he didn't tell Tony O. Yet another false impression he gave as to his motives and intentions.

    If they had just even done the decent thing and gone to AmaX and said we are doing this regardless of your concerns then AmaX would have withdrawn completely, called them fools and wished them the luck they would need.
    Then if she had still been served she would have had irrefutable proof that not only was she not acting in concert with a named party but that she was actively avoiding it to the fullest.

    No wonder AmaX is pissed.
    She was betrayed not only by Bunker but also by Xander and possibly others.
    Bunker she didn't trust anyway.
    But Xander?

    See I can be fair and not just heap all the shit on Mark.
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  29. anon8109 Member

    Well if Xander thought in his expert lawyer opinion that Bunker was right to show up, and advised him accordingly, then that shifts some of the blame onto himself and off of WBM.

    I still have great respect for WBM, amaX, and Xander, and chalk this up to "nobody's perfect". But 20 pages of publicly slandering WBM is an overreaction and deserves the dome.
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  30. Xander's not a Florida attorney. His legal advice doesn't trump the legal advice of various local law officers (police & attorneys) that had advised amaX.

    You need to get over the fact that it's not slanderous to be discussing WBM critically, because his conduct is in fact worthy of critique.

    I already told you, I sincerely doubt this thread will ever be domed. Mods have posted in this thread critically of WBM.

    Part of the reason the thread is 20 pages long is that WBM's defenders are participating and refusing to acknowledge his failures or the depth of his failures. So you have a part in this if you're upset about the length of the thread.
  31. No, the reason this thread is still alive is because whenever there is activity on WBM's part, such as asking for funds, the "good samaritans" who feel it is their job to bring the news here do so, and then the jabbing starts all over. If you don't believe me, just look at the dates and the posts. The thread goes dead, someone brings "news" and it starts again.

    AMA wants to be a victim and a martyr, for some reason. She puts on this butt-kicking front, but then melts into despair over a piece of paper. And there are all the enablers here who willingly feed that need.

    How is it that no one questions the logic that someone can invite or un-invite people to an open conference, where funds were publicly raised??? Name one other critic's conference where there was a guest list??? NO WHERE, that's where. It's bizarre to talk about it like it's okay and makes any sense at all. Hell, Scientologists have attended past conferences in other cities, and even the early press conferences in Clearwater had Scientologists in the audience. A conference should NOT HAVE A GUEST LIST. There have probably been at least a dozen other conferences and not one has had a princess who had to be worshipped and pitied and martyred like this one. The other conferences had anonymous organizers who quietly kicked ass.
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  32. anon8109 Member

    Then it will remain as an example of why so many people are turned off of WWP while the comments on Ortega's blog are thriving.
  33. And yet you keep posting, 8109.

    In your own words, this and the failure to release KR in a timely fashion are why the thread has gone on for 20 pages.

    No sincere apology, no attempt to make right has come from WBM, so the discussion continues.

    KR not released yet, so the discussion continues.

    Those things are entirely in WBM's power to change.

    It's a legitimate critical discussion, and that's why it won't be domed - and I hope you can see that you're the only one who is calling for it to be domed.

    It's not in your power to stop the discussion, certainly not to censor it. I'm with OP when I say that Bunker is the only one who can lay this thread to rest.
  34. For Ama playing the victim it's as natural as breathing.

    Poor fucking Ama, my arse.
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  35. Spd

    Personally I wish she'd take her whinebag attitude elsewhere and stop boring the rest of us with her woes.
    Yeah she got given a piece of paper woop de fucking do.

    DIAF AMA you're a blight on wwp and all who sail in her.
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  36. RavenEyes Member

    And, this post ^, will remain as homage to all those forever stuck in high-school-Homecoming-popularity contests.

    lol "turned off of WWP" - like people's feelings are hurt...
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  37. RavenEyes Member

    This thread is 22 pages long, but it's also 19 MONTHS old. Measuring its time-to-pages ratio, it's actually quite short in length. Had KR ever launched, it would've ended pages/months ago. So, there's that...
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  38. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Meanwhile, I'll keep on visiting both sites and posting only here, like I always have... :)
    • Like Like x 3

  39. What is the going tally on the added up amount of $$$ BM has gotten so far?
  40. Why on earth should he apologize?

    She should apologize to him. And to me! I donated to Flag Down, not knowing it was going to turn into a pity party, where the princess was going to unilaterally decide who was INVITED! Bizarre nonsense.

    If you want to drink the pity party Koolaid, go ahead.


    - AMA hadn't protested in years
    - People donated thinking it was an open conference, just like all the others that proceeded this one, not one where there would be a secret guest list managed by a whiner
    - The scary pieces of paper were delivered before the conference started
    - AMA could protest freely tomorrow is she wanted. Except then she wouldn't be a victim anymore

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