Marty and Debbie Cook My take

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by anonanchovie, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. anonanchovie Member

    Apropos Rathburns blog warning people away from Debbie Cook.

    I am not being a message board whore, well, maybe I am.... but I think this what I wrote on ESMB is relavent to WWP interests.

    Mmm. Two possibilities here, both conclusions have the same unfortunate outcome.

    Marty is a kind of, what did that madman call it? Bird-dog? That would mean, of course that Marty is part of corporate cult. I would not put it past him.

    The 2nd scenario is, well, I was chatting to Mike Rinder in Dublin, he had a bit of an entourage around him. One of that crowd, a person I am fond of, yet a person who is deeply in with both men, let slip that there is a master plan.

    Messrs R and R have a fully formulate plan to take over the Scientology corporations, lock stock and barrel. All material assets, all intellectual properties, bank accounts and the stupid, blind, brain washed public.

    They are well advanced on this plan, they have people on the inside. They just need Miscavige gone. The new COB will be Marty. His closest get first pick at top jobs. M and M's trump is volume of disaffected scinos under their wing. They consider the Scientology Corp. Sacrosanct, Ron set it up, they are duty bound to rescue it and its assets.

    Debbie put a spanner in the works, she threatened their pension plan.

    There are many dupes, Terril, bless his cotton socks, being just one we know and love well. He and the rest are not nasty, not bad, just dupes of more clever and conniving people. Hubbard had 'Machiavelli The Prince' put on all OSA checksheets, think that M and M have forgotten that?

    (I happen to be studying this very book at the moment from the far more pleasant context of a Humanities degree, it being part of an extensive body of medeival and renaissance writing that forms the foundations of the Italian Literary Canon, so I will tell you more about it in a few months... coolwink.gif )

    Whatever the 'dressing', I fully believe that these men are in fact that cynical that they would lie and deceive to reach their envisioned ends. They have done everything they can to protect a powerful, multi-million, maybe multi-billion dollar company, and what have they really done to Miscavige? Nothing me thinks: just called him nasty mean names.

    Why do I even give a fuck? Too many really good people the like of Crashed Alien, me, you, the rest of us, still in there, still doing battle with what they know inside them but that keeps getting overridden by the conditioning, the barely concealed threat of violence, that fear. That horrible fear of the 'maybe'.

    One of the most poorly understood and effected philosophical strands over the years has been that of the sophist Cultural Relativism. At its core, it makes sense. But most people that use it reduce it to mean:

    'All being fuzzy and grey, we will take no clear and honestly defined stance'. 'There is no right or wrong'.

    The pure definition is that ' truth is relative to standpoint' and indeed this something I concur with, but that goes as far as to the point where humans, animals and good things suffer.

    I find that difficult to take.

    My stance is that Marty and Mike are out to take over the Scientology world as it stands and when they do they will lead it down an increasingly fundamentalist and I believe, more violent and blinkered road.

    They will be worse than Miscavige simply because the two are rigid believers in the rightness in all things Hubbard as are their flock of deluded followers.

    These men are doubly dangerous now as they have successfully allied so much of the media, they are the people media goes to first and they black pr anyone that may have opposing views to them to that media.

    They have essentially defused the uncompromising official German stance with regard to 'Scientology'. And this is a project that they continue to engage in.

    I don't like calling it, but I must. I would like it all to be warm and fluffy, to sit down and have a few beers with them and shoot the shit. But Mike's demeanour in Dublin told volumes, he is on a mission. They are not powerful, they are just two guys, wierdos, that forward a mad, nutty and meaningless belief system. So was Bin Laden and any of the fanatics of any strand, all these cultic strands defy rationality, One could leave them alone to get on with it. But the - please forgive my verbal diorrea - But I am powerless and kind of angry at what I see going on; what I see playing out. It is an age old, and sad story.
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  2. telomere Member

    I'm not going to argue over the whore part,
    but posting critical comments about Marty Rathbun means that you oppose all the good he's done,
    and you know you're doing OSA's work regardless of your intentions.

    Dear anons:
    we should consider disconnecting from Anonanchovie,
    for his half-truths about nutty and meaningless belief systems,
    and his horrible fears of 'maybe'.

    You may have heard about his post on ESMB, but if you haven't already, don't open it.
    If you see one of his posts, forward the URL to Marty, instead.
    Don't "friend" Anchovie, or offer him your support,
    because as long as he's connected to people Not-In-Good-Standing with Anonymous, he can never be trusted.

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  3. grebe Member

    Oh you.
    • Like Like x 4
  4. Anonymous Member

    Italian pizza with anchovie and hot squirrel stuff.

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  5. Anonymous Member

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  6. Puppetmama Member

    While this is undocumented it is also all too easy to believe given the way R. and R. play the media and their followers. I hate the thought of anything that keeps this con going even a second longer. I suspect that there is steel under this tinfoil. Everything Marty does reeks of machination.
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  7. Malory Member

    Totally agree with OP.
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  8. amaX Member

    The splintering of the cult is beautiful. It doesn't matter who tries to take over. We'll be around to tell the truth. Knowledge is free.
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  9. BLiP Member

    I still can't get passed the idea that these schisms are a mock up designed to lay the groundwork for a pretend reformation - as per the transition from GO to OSA and, especially, to avoid any criminal prosecutions or any situation which would require DM and/or the M&M Show to give testimony under oath. Sooner or later, DM will step down and the media informed: "look, we've got rid of the bad apples, we've tidied up our operation, we're very very sorry, everyone can come back now, and the authorities don't need to take any action. We've learned our lesson, honest."
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  10. xenubarb Member

    I don't think it matters. Nobody wants the 60 year old remnants of 50s era sci-fi pulp garbage except a few hundred deluded true believers who still think Ron's the shit. It takes raw meat to run the org machine, and
    that just ain't gonna happen.

    The MRs have a pretty ugly history, and we will see to it that the nature of these "religious" representatives of
    America's premiere space alien cult will be well and truly exposed.
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  11. Count me in as totally agreeing with the OP.

    I think it's harmful for people getting out to fall back in with Marty's reformation of Hubbard's scam, it can't be done unless Marty is changing many of Hubbard's 'scriptures' (all abusive policies, recordings, insane 'Tech' and writings) are completely unchangeable per LRH himself.

    It will NOT be Scientology once you change any of the scriptures, Marty and Mike.
    Are you two self-serving, lying frauds changing Hubbard's sacred 'scriptures' like fair-game, disconnection, the RPF, knowledge reports, introspection rundowns and on and on???????

    You'll have to call your scam RinderBurnUism, RinderBurnology or something else because one thing is for certain, once you make your changes it won't be L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology and its Standard 'Tech'.

    The monies left should be given to the victims of Scientology and NOT to you two scamming victimizers, imho.

    How about if you two get some help in dealing with your own issues from decades in the LRH mindfuck instead of trying to profit off the misery of those who finally have a chance to get out?
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  12. telomere Member

    Church of Squirrology?
    They could even keep the acronyms.

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  13. Anonymous Member

    what else do they know how to do?
    What are they good at? How have they spent the majority of their lives?
    They were both in very high positions in the church and they didn't get there by being anybody's friend or by being nice. Of course I am not telling you anything you don't already know. <3
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  14. BLiP Member

    Along with thousands of broken lives, the "remnants" include billions of dollars in cash and real estate. If a criminal prosecution were to go ahead, that jewel would be at stake. Follow the money, never mind the tech.
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  15. amaX Member

    It seems that the newly out don't stay around Rinderburn for very long. :D
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  16. 1998:
    In my opinion Marty has always instinctively lied whenever he thinks it is to his advantage.
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  17. Anonymous Member

    In this he differs from Hubbard, who lied compulsively, whether to his advantage or not.
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  18. I', always intrigued by what OP has to say.

    BUT.... If we Stay on Target and Finish The Fight, there won't be any cult left for M&M to take over. so it becomes a non-issue.

    I hoe somebody's screengrabbing Marty's blog for all those posts where he says he doesn't want to take over...
  19. Anonymous Member

    This whole thread is based on the premise that Rathbun has found some legal means for ousting Miscavige and getting himself appointed CEO of the Scientology corporation. DOX or STFU.

    Without any dox this is just pure speculation. Aren't the people who have the power to oust Miscavige under close scrutiny? Some of them in the RPF? If there were any hint of a coup, Miscavige would know about it and RPF or SP whoever was planning this, and appoint some new milquetoast to take their place.
  20. anonanchovie Member

    I am not sure as to the effectivness of the old DOX or STFU meme.

    I don't document my convesations.

    Analysis of any kind requires both informaion, a fairly good knowledge of the subject in question, typical trends and a fair old dose of extapolation.

    The intellectual process has considerable merit.
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  21. Anonymous Member

    This is what I thought from the very beginning and haven't wavered. No matter, we will continue regardless of who is running this abusive cult.
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  22. xenubarb Member

    That might not be such a prize. Should any of the court cases (Headleys, DeCrescenzo) succeed, it'll open doors to a flood of demands for compensation.

    What I mean is, might be slim pickins for the MRs.
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  23. xenubarb Member

    I read a discussion once where exes were talking about the role of a COB and how they could be removed.

  24. I hope that is the case for those still trapped, the very last thing they all need is more Hubbard horseshit under Marty's 'guidance' so they can KSW for a couple more decades and become part of Marty's "We don't do that anymore" Religion.

    I do so hope and pray that those floodgates open and compensation goes to the actual vicims of LRH, the scientologists who were duped into giving everything they had for the 'Tech" that controls them and does NOT work.

    Scientology is crumbling under its own weight with or without Marty thanks to ongoing Anonymous exposure. Why prolong the agony for those who feel the need to cling to Independent LRH 'Tech' and help them recover sooner rather than later if Marty and Rinder do get their greedy mitts on all de cash and real estate.

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  25. Anonymous Member

    How does the Church of Spiritual Technology factor into who holds the position of CoB?
  26. Anonymous Member

    I had a conversation yesterday with someone on the inside (my mail carrier) about what the rest of the winter will be like. From this I conclude that the rest of the winter will be mild. This intellectual process has no merit.

    It's not hard to believe that Rathbun wishes he could take over from Miscavige, and that if he took over he'd put trusted cronies in positions of power in the corporation.
    What is hard to believe is that he has some means for achieving his goal (other than using OT magic powers).
  27. Anonymous Member

    Don't be retarded. A conversation would have no dox. You choose to believe or not. I assume you are on the side of "not"
  28. Anonymous Member

    No surprise, OP. M&M are duty bound to protect their beloved 'religion' by any means necessary. "Never be afraid to hurt another in a just cause" is rather telling, as are a myriad of instances from hubbard that show scientology will not fuck around if it is under threat.
    Scientology is under the biggest threat it has ever been since it hatched from dianetics. Martyr and Co are so deluded to think they can stop the dwindling spiral scientology is experiencing. It's not the 'church' in free-fall, it is scientology itself.

    Let us pretend David Miscavige gets ousted. If he is ousted due to prosecutions, how long do you think it will be before the filthy past of scientology (pre-DM days) is revisited that shows DM was never the real problem? I'd say somewhere like Germany and other EU's will outlaw scientology completely. History tends to repeat itself and historically scientology has shown itself to do what it wants, how it wants regardless of any laws of the land they are occupying.

    Scientology is well beyond redemption now and hubbard made the bed scientology is now being forced to sleep in courtesy of Anonymous and allies(yes you, OG faggots!)

    I dont particularly agree on a banning/outlawing of scn, but I think there will be places where it is inevtible. Other places will introduce specific laws to deal with scn as a business.

    Who knows, as it's all speculation firstly, and secondly public opinion has very hard to turn around.
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  29. Anonymous Member

    Being skeptical is not being retarded, quite the opposite.
    I don't doubt that OP is reporting a conversation they had.
    I am willing to believe that Rathbun wishes to take over the Scientology corporation.
    It sounds plausible that Rathbun has some kind of plan for achieving this.

    What I don't believe is that Rathbun can succeed. AFAIK the only way to legally get rid of David Miscavige is for some committee (I forget its name) to fire him from his job as CEO. I also recall reading something about most of the people on this committee either being in the RPF or being completely loyal to Miscavige.

    There was no credible evidence or argument that Rinder has found any way to get this committee to convene and vote Miscavige out. None.
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  30. chuckbeatty77 Member

    I don't think Marty and Mike are "up to the task" of "running" the movement.

    And even if they did, it'd be immediately better than the current setup.

    But over a year ago Marty has publicly on his blog stated he thinks the organization is dead and unrevivable.

    Over a year ago I argued with him, and he stated publicly that if LRH "came back" that LRH would even trash the whole administrative setup of the movement and start over!

    So only way I could agree would be if Marty and Mike got hold of the reigns, they'd basically dismantle the movement. And make it into a loose “field auditor” competitive philosophy/practice, and just dispense with the church. But they would only do that, were some government agency to go in and take down the church legally, and then maybe call in Marty and Mike and others as consultants for how to possibly disperse all the accumulated assets of the whole shebang.

    But even to me, atheist ex member, screw Hubbard’s Xenu body thetan exorcism con religion from a to z, to me that's folly to think the hardcore still in the movement‘s top ranks, as brainwashed as THEY are, even with Miscavige in jail, those left at the Int Base would use the Scientology legal lawyers‘ team to fight that like crazy.

    Scientology is Hubbard! It ain‘t the people in leadership or ex leadership roles, legally.

    Hubbard tried like hell to make sure his creation (the official movement) survived ALL of the idiots who came along to try to dismantle it, which is why they are stuck with their totalitarian rules that they endlessly use to nail and excommunicate whichever ones amongst them they choose to conveniently scapegoat.

    Hubbard left years of writings saying in no way take that course of dismantling the movement, ever!

    Naw, no one from the outside wanting to dismantle the whole movement, will find any traction from those inside the movement.

    I predict we will have to wait for Miscavige to die of lung cancer, or however he dies naturally, and those taking over will dust off the likes of the "Command Channels" booklet, and other of Hubbard's final years' writings, and "reform" and stumble along in their decaying slow demise like other unrealistic totalitarian “new” religions.
    Command Channels booklet (it’s the required Hubbard movement blueprint, boring but vital to understanding what Hubbard wanted)

    Scientology’s gotta do major reform to even become like Christian Science, let alone the Mormons. Scientology’s got little future in organized form, and it‘s like beating their heads against the wall trying to do what Hubbard told them to do as a movement. .

    I think Marty’s resigned to “field auditor” future of the movement, internet future, freezone/independent future for the movement, and just sort of quietly let the membership come to the same realization he and the others who are freezone and independents, which is that the organized church is a BIG losing proposition.

    Marty's a practitioner, he sits down in a chair, has a meter (I think) and does the spiritual therapy/exorcism on other people, one on one. That's his joy in life, he's busy at it, he is flexible about whatever "exchange" people give him or not, for his one on one sit down with them therapy/exorcism that he does on them.

    Marty never was a manager. As IG Ethics, later IG, he was NOT at all in the same class of administrator as ANY of the people who can do topnotch policy administrative "evaluations" and like any of the WDC Members who can write strategies, programs, Mission Orders, and oversee in detail the various "sectors" administratively of the movement. (Google the "Command Channels" booklet, for the "sectors" administratively.)

    In the mid 1980s, Mark Ingber and Mark Yager, mostly Ingber I recall, did the majority of the submission for the "Command Channels" booklet, which is the type of internal strategic level thinking of the really "top" leaders. Marty was NOT in on that research of all of Hubbard's final orders, to piece together that "Command Channels" booklet.
    Command Channels booklet

    That's gonna be pretty closely followed, no matter who "steps up" to "fix" the movement.
    This booklet is all boring bullshit details, but I can tell you, that whoever goes in to take over from Miscavige, when he dies of lung cancer, or old age, or gets put in jail, the "reformers" (Marty and Mike, who even if they DO take up that challenge, which I don't think want to, it's just too much BS work), whoever does pick up the pieces and try to "fix this mess", will be going back to Hubbard's writings, which are the same writings that the "Command Channels" booklet was based on.

    That's the "form of the movement", that booklet.

    There are a few policy loopholes, which later down the road, Exec Strata and the Watchdog Committee can take, to do the major reforms needed.

    The problem is the movement does not attract enough smart enough people willing to sort through all the Hubbard BS, most quit well before getting to the top echelons, and it's been a viper pit at the top, due to the Lord of the Flies atmosphere at the top, Hubbard's fault, and Miscavige’s carrying out Hubbard's faults to the extreme.

    Most likely, David Miscavige is gonna live another decade to 15 years, then die of lung cancer, something like that.

    And by then, Marty's gonna just be a competitive freezone/independent Scientologist like all the other increasing in number competing independent Scientologists.
    There's not a lot more of the high "tech trained" people to even defect from the movement.

    Bore yourself with the "Command Channels" booklet, if you want some idea of the stupid administrative details of the top of the movement, it's a setup Hubbard laid out, and wished the movement to be governed by, and whoever swats Miscavige out of the way, will have to contend with the Hubbard "Command Channels."

    ex admin nerd, here's me as the "height" of admin training course supervisor years in the cult:

    Int Training Org, alleyway besides the "bank" building, Clearwater, FLA 1981 photo link
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  31. RightOn Member

    "Over a year ago I argued with him, and he stated publicly that if LRH "came back" that LRH would even trash the whole administrative setup of the movement and start over!"

    And just exactly what does Marty think that Hubbard's state of mind would be when he returned? snicker
    Are we going to start seeing "What would Hubbard do?" t- shirts and bumper stickers?

    Did Marty say "if" Hubbard came back or "when" he comes back?
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  32. chuckbeatty77 Member

    I hate to bore anyone with more Hubbard bullshit, but Hubbard in 1982 wrote a disparaging comment on Mike Rinder, for which Mike for that comment and other mistakes, was sent to the RPF. Google "Mike Rinder, he's been a bit of a yo yo on my lines" (I paraphrase, but that's what Hubbard said about Mike, and that degree of condemnation or criticism from Hubbard is close to a career ending comment to have from Hubbard if one's a top level player, and Mike was WDC and Chief Officer CMO Int, I believe, when that comment was made. KK, Karen Kamen Seybold, then became Chief Off CMO Int, after Mike was "busted". Mike went to the RPF in the summer of 1983, if I recall correctly.

    I don't agree Marty and Mike are really serious about any conspiracy, unless they plan some wholesale dismantling, and Marty hotly argued he thinks LRH himself would dismantle the big setup, which is just looney if one's trained on the admin writings of Hubbard, one would NOT just trash that huge long built up system.

    Hubbard was selective, when he trashed this or that part of the setup, at the years rolled on, mostly he just replaced chunks of the setup with new echelons and new bureaucratic units or setups to replace the ineffective past setups. The "Command Channels" booklet lays out the final setup Hubbard's final writings approved of.

    I know some think Marty and Mike are into some long big conspiracy to go take over and reform the mess, or aggrandize themselves with the power or wealth, but that's not the type of people nor leaders of the admin echelons that they were.

    Mark Yager and Mark Ingber did the "heavy lifting" as the commanding officers of CMO Int. RTC has always been enamored in its self-importance but filled with do nothing top clique of pretty much admin clueless, strategy clueless desk sitters, and Marty was really just top "bag man" for dirty ops above it all, above the legal dealings, and ops against the worst "enemies", like against Mayo, who Marty still has grudges against, for Mayo's suing LRH and whatever else betrayal Mayo did against LRH.

    There is a lot of boring layers to the admin upper ranks BS that Hubbard left them with, to detail, to prove my case that neither of them are the same caliber as the Mark Yagers and Mark Ingber types (and the others who have left the WDC ranks who knew for real how to run a Class 4/5 org and how to play the Hubbard stat pushing game "standardly", what a joke, it's impossible to defend the Hubbard system, since most of the smartest managers realize Hubbard's management ideas were bogus, and it's a losing proposition trying to play the bogus Hubbard management game.) But I'm out of date on how downtrodden Ingber and Yager have become, the two beaten into submission so many times, they aren't the "same" as their old 1980s selves when they were high on the Hubbard final years strategic thinking mindset.

    There's a whole long sorry detailed boring story about all the top beaten down leaders, who are NOT the same as they were. There's no one left, to "stand up" to Miscavige, they all were beaten to smithereens, it's a wasteland.

    "Little Bear Victor" on clambake, couple years ago, posted that it'll be new generation of young-ens that cluelessly become DM-bots who do whatever DM says is "command intention".

    Anyways, the outside world, and anonymous, and all people throwing mud at Scientology, thankyou. Great work.

    IN all cases, the Scientology movement internally at the top ranks is a very deteriorated scene, and it's gonna be a generation or two before they sort themselves out, and after DM is dead or in jail.

    Marty and Mike are just part of an immediate 'safer' landing zone, for those blocked in their progress inside Scientology who want some "case" handling, which Marty and other independent and freezone Scientolgist "field auditor [pseudo-quack-therapist/exoricist]" types provide those ex official Scientologists.

    I don't think they want to whip the Hubbard totalitarian machine back into operation, and nab some lost power and glory and wealth to themselves.

    All I know is every mention of "L. Ron Hubbard" "David Miscavige" "Scientology" together with a disparaging remark or image, in the media and on TV, that OSA and Author Services Inc people have to count as a downstat!
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  33. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Even I don't want to wade through all the threads on his blog to find that argument, but yes, Marty stated his opinion that if LRH came back, meaning showed up today, that Hubbard would "start over" and just get rid of the whole church setup.

    That was such a looney response, me, I'm Mr. Admin wooden-headed literal interpreter of Hubbard's admin bullshit, that made me think Marty was NOT at all understanding of Hubbard's admin writings, since in NO way would Hubbard just throw out the whole damn bureaucratic setup. Hubbard would piecemeal revise chunks of the admin setup, but NOT throw the whole shebang out.

    So relatedly, this implied that he actually would be MORE in line with people's wholesale dismantling inclinations, which would fit what most ex members all the way out of the cult think hope for!

    I interpreted his thinking to have evolved to just where he was himself, which is "field auditor" (practitioner doing their thing in the boonies, by the seat of their pants, on the word of mouth reputation they were able to acquire by their own quality of the pseudo-therapy-exorcism they could deliver!

    Marty is not even "up" to the David Mayo, what I would call "HGC/Training Academy" level volume delivery.

    Marty's not even thinking realistically how to reform the movement, and my sporadic comments on his blog about what I think that would take, fall on deaf ears. It's about a 99%, "Chuck, the Sea Org and setup is a fucking dead machine, let it go!" reponse, and Marty's just encouraging people practice independently, he chose that label carefully, he means it, it's his level of understanding of the future, for real.

    In my opinion.
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  34. Random guy Member

    Thank you for your analysis Chuck Beatty! I think you are spot on regarding the M&M shows ability to take over the cult organization. Personally, I find Miscavige's very strong grip of the reins to be Channology's greatest assets. As long as he refuse to step down and keep spending to keep himself on top and the protesters at bay, he will take the whole house of cards with him and leave nothing on which to rebuild it once he's gone.
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  35. RightOn Member

    forgot to mention, I wasn't doubting that he said that at all Chuck. Just using that quote to ask about what Hubbard's mind would be like when (snark) he returned and why Marty thinks he knows all this.

    I am not quite sure how Marty would think that there can be any kind of reform for the COS at all in it's present state. I don't think it can be done.
    I have always said that the COS could not survive without the Sea Org. Who would do all the maintenance on the giant amount of real estate they own? and who would do all the clerical work and all the printing of materials ect...
    Unless they just went back to tiny missions with volunteers. That would be the only plausible route.
    But even at that, Hubbard wrote all the policies on the Sea Org. Can the Sea Org be retired without being out ethics or going against Hubbard's works and policies?

    Granted Marty and company chery pick the hell out of everything. Like I still don't understand how anyone can do OTVIII oustide of COS without the Freewinds when Hubbard said it was the only place on earth to do it?
    Can anyone explain that?
  36. Anonymous Member

    Refraining from comment as to whether the MRs "want" to take over the COS, there is certainly enough dirt known and documentable about the mess that DM has made of the COS that should anyone, including the MRs, have the capability of ousting DM, the ouster/replacement would be well received within the COS world. And, even if the MRs don't want to inherit the COS mess, to oust/replace DM would been seen as beneficial to at least 98% of current scientologists and scientology. There can't be but a few DM-f-buddies that think DM is really helping scientology. Therefore, my conclusion is that the MRs don't have the capability. That and that they are content with the crumbs.
  37. Anonymous Member

    they could an hero
  38. chuckbeatty77 Member

    "Little Bear Victor", his comments, and Marc Headley's blownforgood era postings, are to me, some of the best last realistic views of just how messed up top Scientology are (even better than Marc's book in many ways).

    It's a whole new scene, Marty and Mike have so much history still not revealed, and Marty's book coming out this spring, ought cause a whole bunch of new anti David Miscavige media, which will be a lot of downstats that will hopefully cause Miscavige to piss all over more people and we'll have some new defectors who DON'T get paid off, like Marty's said the latest Int Base defectors have been given big cash payments to shut their mugs!

    On OT 8, if you want to go into that amount of detail, consider these very stupid obvious points:

    a) One of the LRH Funeral YouTube segments, one of the Broeker speaking segments, Broeker talks about LRH's "research" even as late at August 1985, and Broeker puts up the worksheet with the astronomically long date, showing LRH did a "date locate" presumably, of that date. Broeker also mentions in that event, and Hubbard in an earlier Ron's Journal mentions the "upper upper OT levels" . Well think about it. Hubbard's preclear(pre OT, whatever bullshit name you call those case folders) contain Hubbard's sessions. It is THOSE folders you will want to see.

    b) God this gets into just more detailed BS to explain it, but Hubbard wrote for years and years to his top "tech" people, to Otto Roos, to Ron Shafran, to Jeff Walker, to David Mayo, to Ray Mitoff, to Pat Broeker (even supposedly, if we believe Pat per the funeral drivel Pat speaks), Hubbard gave others the jobs of piloting, and compiling his research into final tech format. Under the old "Commdore's Staff for Division 4" was the earlier incarnation of this "piloting" and "compiling" of Hubbard's tech. Later, under Senior C/S International Office, that's where the old "Tech Comps" was shifted. Under Mitoff, when Mayo was ousted, was where all these "later years compilations" that people go on and on and on and on about all the "changes." Well, man, it was just fucking messed up piloting and messed up compilations, of the Hubbard "research", which some like Marty have commented, was just NOT THERE TO EVEN be piloted and turned into issues, which is the reason for the endlessly changing "tech" for the OT 8 procedures, which was shortened, then lengthened, then changed and changed again.

    It's all the hard impossible and easily fucked up job of piloting and compiling LRH's research OUT of his very own pc/preOT folders!!!!!

    So, to fully finally answer ALL tech questions, honestly (making the ludicrous assumption that LRH's "research" was in any case valid, which today I don't for a second presume his personal solo "case" research is worth anything more than L. Ron Hubbard's fictional self-induced false memory creative imagination, since I don't buy for a second "past lives" bullshit, to me past lives are human imagination elevated by self deception into "reality"), anyways, you get my drift.

    How the hell can' Hubbard's whole track (past lives) imaginative research, with all these twisty turny theory principles, that the Scientologists are trained like dogs to memorize and blurt back and they self induce themselves with all these principles, naw, to me, it was hopeless to presume ANY versions of OT 8 would do anything, other than transfer Hubbard's fantasy mental ideas into other people's self induced fantasy mental explanations for whatever it was that Hubbard wished himself and all mankind to handle spiritually, supposedly.

    So OT 8 is just a little more philosophically and psychologically mechanistically intricate and idea engaging that someone might "get something out of it."

    Likely it was like Marty's dryly and negatively commented, there just isn't anything there to be found in those Hubbard "upper levels" research preclear/preOT folders.

    But to me, perfectionist, must answer all student's questions, the truth, Random Stranger, is we'd have to have Hubbard's preclear/preOT folders to review, just what all was going on in those sessions, like that page that old Pat Broeker held up in the LRH funeral event to all the followers to see just how FAR back into past lives, old Ron explored "for us." "For our cases!"

    I'd say, "for our imaginations", and I'd say we were lied to about this being reality. All this past lives crap is self induced false memory, to me today.

    The best that can be said for the self-induced false memory stuff, is Harriet Whitehead's coverage of this in her "Renunciation and Reformulation" 1987, Cornell Univ Press, book, where she mentions that Freud and Jung noticed some patients "got better" by running obvious fantasy past lives incidents!

    Placebo, and maybe all this Hubbard mental jockeying his pseudo-quack therapy does, is push people into those meditative states or into "realization" moments intimately personal and valuable to that person.

    I'm not a fan of it but that would be my OT 8 thoughts of why the Scientology OT 8 people got those different "messed up" versions of OT 8. It was the "compiler's" faults! Sound familiar?

    And how to make sense out of Hubbard's research!

    Which is why I say over and over, just micro film all of Hubbard's output, and put it in the public domain, so everyone wanting an explanation, can go waste their time looking at everything Hubbard wrote and said.
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  39. I could be mistaken, but personally I do believe Hubbard has indeed returned.....
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  40. chuckbeatty77 Member


    Amy Scobee's book, she makes an excellent point that the "higher up the staff pecking order you go" the more the cult mindset and the rigid follow orders and fads or you lose your status and rights to remain in the top ranks, mindset it all is!

    Other ex leaders, who haven't still talked publicly, but on Steve Hall's site, the people who are the "Gang of Five" who did some David Miscavige history, they tell, and amongst that 5, one told me Miscavige once he got the top dog role just under the Broekers, I think Janet Reitman's book gets this, since I believe she spoke with some or all of the "Gang of 5", Reitman explains Miscavige was just NOT ever one to NOT be non-complied with, from that moment on, in the movement's history.

    When LRH was alive, Hubbard still the top dog. Those relaying Hubbard's orders "took that power", and Miscavige engineered his way into being the top arbiter, and thus everyone else had to follow his orders.

    There's only a few feeble Hubbard policies of how to deal with a lonely top of the totem pole leader who is getting "out of control", and you're right, and everyone's right, in the fact that NO ONE in Miscavige's history, have sat Miscavige down and tried talk him OUT of his mistaken positions.

    Oh, god, I hate to get into detailed defense of some that tried, since most people have a knee jerk hatred of Marty, but Marty, and there is a consensus amongst the people who got interviewed by the St. Pete Times for the "Truth Rundown" stellar article series, it was truly only Marty, who asked to have a "talk" with Miscavige, as feeble and as backed down and not in a position to really make Miscavige listen, that Marty was in.

    No, there's a whole beaten down history of the other "top leaders" and Marty was just such a close associate and henchman "bag man" top legal and top flaps handler for Miscavige, that Marty at least, had that slight inclination to try to have a talk with Miscavige and criticize whatever it is Marty wanted to take up with Miscavige. There are two scriptures (Hubbard church rules) that Marty's effort to talk to Miscavige could be based on, and Miscavige just refused to meet Marty and hear Marty's complaints and Marty's demands, after which Marty left for good.

    It's high level cult members deterioration sociologically and psychologically, and Jeff Hawkins' book, sorry, should have mentioned it.

    If you haven't read Amy's and Jeff's books, read 'em.

    Some great psychologists or psychiatrists have sometimes commented on some of the chat sites, and their views if you can search them up, are excellent on why people get beaten into these abused wives like mentalities.

    It's just part of the cult landscape.
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