Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Anonymous, Mar 18, 2010.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Marty is giving the Church of Scientology a Media Shit Storm. This theory that he wants to "be the new COB" is pretty fucking weak. He's would have to completely destroy the repute of the Cult before Miscavige would ever step down or get removed. Why the fuck would he want anything to do with one of the world's shittiest brands?
  2. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    i just read this article that seems to be from an independent that saw what was actually going on at marty's camp.

    it looks like this guy joined marty's kool-aid drinkers and then, after what he saw, left them. very interesting story.

    use a proxy, just in case:
    My Stint as an Independent - Mark "Marty" Rathbun

    i would post it here, but it is long
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    So do us all a favor and post the tl;dr version.
  4. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    k, inc wall of text:

    My Stint as an Independent Mark "Marty" Rathbun

    My Stint as an Independent.
    Copied from Mark "Marty" Rathbun

    My immediate thought when I first saw Marty Rathbun’s website, which announced he was offering auditing services was, “Wow, Marty Rathbun is a squirrel!” My next thought was, “How could a guy who was so high up in RTC and had to fight for our religion have gone so far off the rails?” Because he was in such a high position, I thought that maybe I should check out what he was saying and why he was doing what he was doing.

    The more I read, the more down tone I went. I was shocked and disgusted and at first doubtful that the full truth was being laid on the table. But because it affected my Church I read more.

    Marty pulled no punches, constantly berating and harping against COB and continually making points to paint him as an SP. I never had any real contact with COB and as a result have nothing first hand to base a judgment on. Marty’s rants definitely influenced how I saw things. I had never felt bad about the Church before and I had always been very supportive. But, after reading all the bad news about things that Marty said were going on, I felt a bit betrayed.

    That said, when I look back now, everything that Marty was saying was all one sided, but I didn’t spot that right away. I had always supported the Church and was now wondering, “what I should do if all of this is true? Should I just keep supporting the Church and hope these things went away? Should I join up with Marty and the people he was associated with?”

    The Church has been through tough times in the past and always found its way and corrected itself, but Marty was talking about things that were now happening which I had no way of verifying, so I was left with many questions. I had never directly experienced nor witnessed any of what Marty and some of the people who were gravitating to him were expressing. Sure, I had some rough times and I had my own overts – which will always color your viewpoint and put you out ruds with your group – but anytime I ever found anything seriously off the rails, I or others in the Church were able to correct it.

    I found that the more I read the more I started getting a helpless feeling that this time was different and that the Church was no longer capable of correcting itself. This is what Marty was really saying. I noticed that everything was focused on COB. Every little thing that was wrong, down to every stupid email sent out as by some green staff member, was being tagged to COB.

    I started to believe it even though I had never experienced any of it myself, reading all this stuff made me feel really bad. I felt I owed my allegiance to the Church as this is what LRH created to carry Scientology into the world. However, for reasons I can’t fully explain, which I am dealing with, I abandoned my loyalty to the Church and quietly become an Independent. At first I was silent. I kept to myself and just read the websites with the negative things people said were going on in the Church. It did not dawn on me at the time that what I was reading truly was entheta and for it to persist, it had to contain lies. Looking back, a lot of what was being said was brutal natter containing a lot of suppressive generalities. But I was so convinced by this time I could not even spot the generalizations, nor that it always had an entheta twist.

    I gradually began to communicate with people who I knew were out of the Church. One of the people I spoke with was Christie Collbran. She and her husband Chris were living in Florida where they bought a house. They had been in the Sea Org, routed out and were in some stage of paying off their freeloader debts, when they ended up getting declared after the Church learned that they were supporting Marty. I remember that Christie was extremely upset that her parents would no longer talk to her because they felt she had joined up with the worst kind of SPs. She had always been close to her family and now they were turning their backs on her as they felt she had betrayed them. This was long before she went on TV. I can’t imagine what they must now think.

    Another person I got in comm with was Amy Scobee. It was through Amy that I heard a shit load of natter and stories that I knew were exaggerations, but I listened anyway. I couldn’t help but wonder what sort of a junior she must have been. Amy has always been good for the latest bit of gossip about other people, but you always have to double check the things she tells you. At one point Amy was boasting about how she was the big organizer of the people who left the Church. She said she was organizing a group of ex-Sea Org members as part of an attempt to take over the Church management and oust COB. Later she said she was the big organizer of the people who got interviewed by the St. Petersburg Times.

    There was an attempt to take over the Church. Well, it was not an attempt, but more like a lot of discussion and plotting, but it was dead in the water when a few people like Larry Brennan refused to have anything to do with it because they were so south on the subject of Scientology. Amy mentioned the trips that Marty had been making to Denver to see Mike Rinder, who for the most part was just getting on with his life. Mike was living in Denver, working as a salesman at a Toyota dealership. He had a girlfriend, Teresa, who was running a business there while raising her boys. Mike no longer had any family who would talk to him. He was not making a lot of money due to the collapse of the car industry but he and Teresa thought about getting married. At one point Mike and Teresa were even living together but it didn’t work out. Mike had younger things on his mind.

    Teresa was not happy at all with the phone calls and visits by Marty at first. She didn’t think all that much of Marty, and because he was arrogant and seemed to be just pushing Mike into something that would benefit himself. Mike had a love / hate relationship with Marty. He hated him but also tried to emulate him. Marty finally struck a deal with Mike to cooperate with the St. Petersburg Times. But before he would do so, Marty and the BBC flew into Denver sometime around August and convinced Mike to first be interviewed for a revenge show for John Sweeney.

    The economy had all but ruined the automobile industry and Mike realized that he would have a real tough time getting anywhere long term trying to sell cars. Marty and Christie Collbran, helped arrange a job for Mike with Matt Argall in Clearwater.

    Matt Argall has quite a history. Argall is one of the owners of Impulse Marketing, a telemarketing call center that was selling everything from acai berry products to money making schemes using the Internet. Argall had gotten involved with Marty soon after Marty announced on the Internet that he was open for business. Matt was one of the first people to go out to Texas to visit Marty and he promised to support Marty’s cause. So it was natural that he would put Mike Rinder on his payroll, to do his part for Marty to keep Rinder on the farm. Mike cut a lucrative deal with Matt Argall which paid him between $20,000 and $30,000 per month. The idea was that Mike, with all his big executive experience would help Matt boost sales at Impulse Marketing which, unbeknown to Mike, was having serious cash flow and client account problems. But this was going to be a huge jump in income for Mike, so h he was enticed to pack up everything in Denver and move to Clearwater. As soon as Mike signed up with Argall, Matt took him on an all expenses paid trip to the Bahamas to party with Matt and some of his drug taking friends. Work could wait.

    Christie told me a little about the auditing that she had received in Texas from Marty and the situation with Chris, her husband. She talked about how good things were, things in general, but at home things really began to unravel soon after her first visit to Texas. Talk to anyone that knew them and you’ll hear that Chris Collbran had always been a bit of an inconsiderate asshole and Christie was always trying in one way or another to get him to get his ethics in. It seemed as though the auditing with Marty was going to help out on the 2D, but in the end it was the beginning of the end. Chris got more and more involved in doing drugs going out 2D (once again). One of them was Ashley, who had been working for Matt Argall and was part of his circle of party hard friends. Argall thinks nothing of whoring around in Las Vegas and other locales with strippers and so on, even though he has a son and a 2D. Chris had also decided that he no longer wanted anything to do with Scientology, even the Freezone brand.

    So Christie finally had enough of Chris Collbran and decided to leave him. People don’t know this but Christie got married really young – the first time when she was 16. It didn’t last a year. Then she got married to Chris when she was 21. They had a son, Shane. Right after deciding to end it with Chris, Christie didn’t wait long, she moved straight in with Mike Rinder, who frankly is more than old enough to be her father.

    Around the same time that arrangements were being made for Mike Rinder’s job with Matt Argall, Haydn James, who was an old friend of Marty’s, was running into trouble. He and Lucy got fired from their jobs. They had been working for a big dental office in Texas for some guy who was an OT 8. With no job on the horizon, Haydn too went to work for Matt Argall at Impulse Marketing. At first Matt thought that he had a big catch with Mike Rinder and Haydn James, both former executives. Haydn was his “Golden Boy” and Mike Rinder his “Bulldog” and thought that they would be the answer to the sagging sales at Impulse.

    It didn’t last long.

    Matt is a flamboyant character who loves to look the part of a high roller. He gets his hair done by Tito, who bleaches it and gets it to stand up, like a Mohawk. He drives fancy cars and Matt likes to think of himself as this genius deal maker. Everyone likes Matt because he has a lot of money that he likes to throw around. But the telemarketing business is a cut throat business. A company can go from making millions to dwindling down to a trickle, just by losing a couple of money making sales leads accounts. It took less than two months before the lucrative deals that Mike and Haydn made with Impulse Marketing began to unravel.

    Haydn told me that both of them had been promised that they would be making all this money working for Matt at Impulse only to find out that the company was falling apart due to losing major sales account. With no producing accounts, there are no lists of leads to call which is death for a telemarketing company. Although they tried to hide it as best as possible, Haydn and Mike both felt betrayed by Matt. Mike had quit his job and closed out his apartment in Denver and completely relocated to Clearwater. Haydn did the same from Texas. It was even worse for Haydn as he had to move Lucy and their two daughters with him. Just when Haydn and Mike rented a big house together and were settling in, Matt’s house of cards at Impulse began to implode.

    Matt had also employed “Clearwater Independent” Cathy Greenbaum, who nearly broke her neck recently in a fall over at Rinder’s house. (When I heard that Cathy had the accident and had to be carted off in an ambulance, I was worried that she had fallen off the wagon again, got drunk and fell.) Cathy was also the victim of Matt Argall’s grand plans to support the Independents. She too was made financial promises by Matt which didn’t pan out. The only one left now working for Matt is Tom DeVocht, who sold his furniture business in Winter Haven and moved to Palm Harbor, on the promises made by Matt of big money working with Impulse, which never materialized. Tom ended up having to take a job remodeling at Matt’s house.

    I almost forgot – I was really surprised the day that Alison Andrus showed up on the scene out of the blue and I learned she had started a 2D with Tom DeVocht. I was thinking, what the hell happened to Ivan? Many years ago, Alison and Ivan created a big scandal when she and Ivan Obolensky, then the Captain AOLA, went out 2D and blew the Sea Org. Now all of the sudden, she arrived in Clearwater and was jumping in the sack with Tom. This all happened just as Ivan went to see Marty for some auditing. When I saw Alison and Tom together, I was like, “Whoa, what’s this all about?” I didn’t even know she and Tom knew each other. But then, the next thing I know, Ivan started a 2D with Mary Jo!

    What got me to change and starting to really think about what I was doing and where this was all going with the Independents was when I saw all the crazy squirrels and Freezoners of all kinds gravitating to Marty’s blog and his Facebook as friends. I’ve seen enough squirrels in my day to know where this was headed. I was really turned off by this. Squirreling the tech is not what I had signed up for, yet Marty and the “Independents” were suddenly embracing it.

    Luckily I ran into an old friend, a Scientologist who I respect and have known for about 15 years. We got talking about the Today Show. He told me he had seen Christie’s interview with Matt Lauer. He told me that he actually felt she was sincere when she stated that she still believed in Scientology. He pointed out that while she is sincerely professing her belief in Scientology, she is so entangled in justifying the cause of the Independents, that she can’t see the contradictions.

    He pointed out that everything she’s making negative public statements about: the Church itself, the Sea Organization, and even the subject of disconnection are all part of the tech created by LRH. Assuming that some portion of what she is saying about the Church is accurate, her actions are still insane because she is trying to rectify something she thinks is wrong by committing suppressive acts. She is either a Scientologist whose stable datum is tech and policy, or she is a Scientologist in name only, who only wants to follow part of what is covered in tech and policy and violate the rest. Two wrongs don’t make a right and suppressive acts are suppressive acts because they are the actions found by LRH to be extremely harmful to Scientology and Scientologists.

    The idea that you can commit these SP acts and have it only target the Church, but not somehow target also Scientology is just nuts. She is either just seriously duped or a fool or is calculatingly doing what she is doing.

    You don’t commit suppressive acts (harmful and destructive acts) in the name of help and have it do anything but create chaos and confusion. If you want to destroy Scientology itself, you do the actions that are listed in the LRH policy on Suppressive Acts Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, which is what Christie is doing.
  5. Lorelei Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    What, without finding out if I agreed or disagreed?

    LOL @ you.
  6. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    THIS ^^^^^
  7. LocalSP Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    That is nothing more than a hatchet job trying to discredit anyone who speaks out and to get people who have doubts back into the fold.
  8. grumpus Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Yeah, I think you mean me. ;D

    And for this oh-so-clever person,

    I'll post that part here:

    I certainly think it's possible that this entire Marty Movement is an attempt to "safe-point" Scientology by pointing all blame at Miscavige. And yes, I think it's entirely possible that Marty is still working for the cult (and at least the cult's best interests) in all this Davey-blaming combined with whitewashing and ignoring the sixty years of organized crime and fraud that IS Scientology, as well as whitewashing (mostly by ignoring) the life of L. Ron Hubbard.
  9. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Great minds can think alike

  10. grumpus Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Haha... and multiple ones. I admit I picked up the added "safe point" language from 'Alert' on OCMB, it's a good Scilon term to describe the theory.
  11. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    If Miscavige is indeed a megalomaniac, why would he allow his captains to run an op where he's painted a failure who must be routed out?

    Control freaks don't set themselves up as scapegoats. They have a pool of little people for that job.

    Are there other examples in the history of mankind of a mob boss or dictator condemning a high ranking officer as a traitor, simply as a ruse to fool an enemy?
  12. Gottabrain Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Cool train of thought.

    No, I don't think so, not simply as a ruse to fool an enemy. Not in the Russian or Italian Mafia, not even by Hitler.

    For greed, perceived weakness, mistakes, over a woman, man, religious, cultural, ethnic or other differences, but since trustworthy, competent high ranking officers to do your bidding aren't easy to come by, they wouldn't be wasted just to fool another.

    I don't think even serial murderers would do that.
  13. grumpus Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    First, before the "LOL, tinfoil" starts -- I'll say that I'm not claiming the Marty and Mike show is a Co$ op; I just think that it *could* be.

    Here's the thing: Co$ only needs to protect tax-exempt status in the USA and the copyrights and trademarks owned by CST and RTC to survive. Everything else is expendable. They have hundreds of millions of dollars in assets - maybe billions - so they can withstand a LOT of downturn in income as long as they don't have to pay taxes. And rich celebrities (and many other people) will keep donating for those tax write-offs, and to avoid having the dirt in their auditing files made public.

    If you think about it, directing accusations of simple assault against Miscavige is about as "good" for Co$ as things could be right now, compared to all the bad PR they COULD be getting.

    So, look at it from the Co$ perspective. Chanology erupts. Yesterday I had one website, one newsgroup, and a handful of exes to worry about. Now there are millions of people all over the world up my ass, and there's a ton of bright light shining on EVERTHING, including all the fraud of L. Ron Hubbard, the fraud of Scientology itself, the con game that is the tech, Snow White, the IRS deal, etc., etc., etc.

    If I'm Davey, I realize that I cannot contain it all. I cannot defend any of it. I cannot stop the signal and it's going to end up with me losing my tax status and therefore my empire entirely. So what can be done on top of all the normal stuff? Redirecting the critical energy. I might think "what if we get all the attention on superficial things that can't bring me/Co$ down?" It has to seem juicy, and it has to seem legit, or nobody will go along with it. So I "give" them... me.

    I realize that I, Davey, cannot be pushed out as COB RTC by anyone except the government throwing me in prison. I control the RTC and I control the CST because I get to decide who is in "good standing" and allowed to be on the board. There cannot be a coup unless someone kills me.

    So, I decide I can take some hits to my "good name" because most people inside won't believe it, critics already know I'm a piece of shit, and most people who hear a headline "cult leader hits people" are not going to be very surprised or worked up about it.

    And the Scientologists who do leave that aren't part of my plan, well... we could have someone who's "out" and talking junk about me scooping them up and keeping them as Scientologists, or at least keeping an eye on them and keeping them from going all anti-Scientology. Enter Marty.

    Exes come out, Marty "works" with them. They write books, but they DON'T attack Hubbard or the "tech," just me. Marty works the media, making sure to keep the talking points away from words like Hubbard, fraud, con man, con game, Snow White, convictions, felonies, etc. We make sure the media stories use words like Religion, Philosophy, Reformation, Independents, and we make sure the exes we put in these pieces all speak glowingly of, or at least don't attack, the "tech."

    I also don't Dead Agent or Fair Game Marty and Company very hard, if at all, and hope nobody notices.

    And then we wait. Once people realize no greater accusations are coming down the pipe they get bored and discouraged. The government can't do anything from what the high-profile exes and Marty are saying but maybe charge me with some assaults. Yawn.

    I "reconcile" with Marty (or double cross him). He tells all the people he scooped up that everything's cool now, or I try to get them back if I screwed Marty, or we just write them off. I tell the faithful it's just SPs who tried to bring me down, and we beat them! Critic movement wasted two years celebrating how bad a guy I am. Government did nothing meaningful. Public forgets and goes back to not caring much about that kooky celeb cult... lol, xenu.

    I pretend to enact reforms, like when we renamed the Guardian's Office to OSA and TOTALLY PROMISED we don't do Fair Game anymore. All is well in tax-exempt land, and the media is chock full of stories and books that implicitly (and often explicitly) say that Scientology and Hubbard are awesome.

    Or I could "step aside" for the best interests of the cult, much to the dismay of my loving flock. I set myself up with a fat golden parachute and some "advisory" role and let Marty or someone be my front man.

    As for historical examples, look at Co$ itself. They used Scapegoat Tech for Snow White (though Hubbard himself dodged that one), and they used Scapegoat Tech to get the IRS deal (Hubbard didn't escape that one, being dead and all).

    And look at what Davey's being charged with by the Marty Show. It's not anything that's going to send him to prison, so he doesn't REALLY have to be fully scapegoated. Just kinda. Also, Davey is in a unique position compared to other organized crime syndicate leaders: he has legal standing and tax-exempt status for his organization.

    If I'm Davey, I'm very willing to take that "bad PR" rather than have the wordwide media focusing on all the things that could destroy Scientology completely.

    The theory isn't perfect, of course. Lots of variables could come into play, like being double-crossed or burned by lawsuits/criminal charges from people Davey doesn't control. And I (me again, not Davey) don't really know what's going on. I do know what I see in the media from the Marty Show, though, and I don't think any of it can destroy the cult. In fact, I see all the legitimizing of Hubbard as a boon to Co$.
  14. WagTheWog Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Been sayin' that from Day One.
    I'm right with ya.
  15. Puppetmama Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Plus it reads like information collected by a PI, not an independent (lol) individual.
  16. Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Good point. However, in order to keep their tax exempt status, they need to keep Americans from thinking about why this organization has tax exemption. If the media shitstorm escalates, they will have trouble doing that.
    Except that is not all that is being said. The four corners program covered abuses under Hubbard such as overboarding, RPF and disconnection. Forced abortions under Miscavige. I noticed a US program which seemed to have a freezone agenda, so perhaps you may have a point about media in the US.
    I often wonder if the reason Snow White is not highlighted is because it is an embarrassment to the US govt. Also, Mark Headley talked on Glossip about how they blackmailed the director of the IRS, so maybe they don't talk about that for a reason, too.

    Marty left in 2004, Rinder in March 2007. Chanology started Feb 2008. If they left after chanology, say 6 months after, this would be easier to swallow. Are you suggesting that DM went after Rinder more than a year after he blew, to recruit Rathbun who was long gone by that stage? When I listen to the interview between Joe of the SP Times and Tommy Davis and hear Tommy Davis losing his temper talking about Marty, I find this difficult to buy. I think it is reasonable to assume DM legitimately hates Marty.
    Interesting point.
    This is a strong argument. An important defence for Scientology to keep operating as a religion, is to keep people from speaking out against the tech. It also has the added benefit that people who believe in Scientology won't ask or sue for their money back.
    As I said, earlier, yes there does appear to be some freezone propaganda, but in the LA conference organized by Mark Bunker everyone used the term, "Scientology Organization." That being said, everyone took the "people can believe whatever works for them" rule (which would annoy Richard Dawkins, I imagine). I don't particularly like this, because I think the tech is damaging and the beliefs are dangerous, but I do see this as a stepping stone. It wouldn't surprise me if Marty is pushing a portion of the freezone propaganda in the US, but he doesn't own the media. Mark Bunker is not pushing Martys agenda, and the LA conference was not apologetic.
    It is interesting that they don't appear to be dead agenting Marty. Maybe this is because he could sink the cult if he really wanted to? Maybe it would be bad PR.
    The media shitstorm appears to have reached critical mass. I felt the Martin Bashir nightline interview, the LA media conference, and the four corners show represent the end of fear by the media and by the exes. There are a lot of exes who want money back, and when they don't have fear, more are likely to try. Also, don't forget to factor in Mark Headley's court case into your theory.
    Given the way that Miscavige siezed control of the messenger service while Hubbard was in hiding at such a young age, I find this difficult to believe DM will play second fiddle to Marty, or anyone else. He is an ambitious little monster.
    Hubbard, who was in control, scapegoated his wife. He didn't scapegoat himself and give the church to Pat Broeker. Also, by Headley's account, and consistent with fair game, they used blackmail to get IRS deals. Miscavige did not lose anything to achieve this.
    I am not saying I disagree with your theory. Just because it appears to be a very bad plan, doesn't mean they aren't enacting it. They have come up with stupid plans before. DM may have planned it, and it escalated out of control.

    Michael Pattinson may have a point that Rinder may be involved. He may be trying to control Marty, to make him believe that he might be head of the church if he plays his cards right.
  17. grumpus Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Yeah, as I said, it's not a fully formed and fine-tuned theory. There are timeline oddities that would make it a really long op. Then again, we know people have faked dropping out for years at a time to go underground and still work for Co$ in the past.

    There are also loose ends to figure out. It's just a general idea I'm sort of thinking out loud about. I have a strong hunch that things are not all that they seem, and I cannot ignore the Independent/Fee-zone agenda that dominates American media lately: "It's all DM's fault."

    It wouldn't surpise me if Miscavige did start an op along these lines then lost control of it or got double crossed, or that anyone involved might be double crossing someone else, or everyone else. We know Co$ has always been a pit of vipers, and Davey grew up at the knee of the Supreme Roolah himself. Marty and Mike have dirty, bloody hands, too, and decades of practice running con games and black ops.

    I swear, Hubbard's life was stranger than fiction and the story of Scientology continues to play out like an overblown spy novel/James Bond movie. I don't know enough to see all the angles, but my gut is telling me there ARE angles to be seen...
  18. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    ITT: WWP finally makes the transition to full moonbat OCMB.

    Dome this shit before the cancer becomes terminal.
  19. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    tl; dr This idea is not very plausible.

    Going with Occam I suppose the simplest theory would be that Marty wants what he says he wants.
    Grumpus, I think your theory fails because for the average "wog" all these reports damage Scientology. In short, most outsiders are either too clever or too stupid to understand or care about the distinction between "Scientology" and the "Church of Scientology". The folks in the media aren't entirely stupid either and then there is the internet which is available for any people who want to do their own research after seeing a media report.
    The next argument against this idea of this being a complex op is that, because it damages Scientology's reputation, it also damages the public image and subsequently all the attempts to legitimize Scientology, all the carefully built relations with city councils, state senators and also the attempts to have a good relation with the local police as well as the credibility when you tell them outright lies about supposedly illegal behaviour by protesters. Of course, if you just consider the money and the defense of the IRS deal that could be acceptable as a temporary setback. But I don't believe it is temporary and if this the actual strategy it is a show of desperation and DM would be better of taking the money and leaving than trying this.
    I also don't think the current reports preclude or lower the possibility of future reports about the tax exemption.
    There is also too much that could "go wrong" in the reporting done by the media. See OneOneWasARacecar's post.
    Also, the appearance of groups such as Marty's is what you would expect to happen naturally as soon as organized Scientology starts falling apart. Same thing basically as in the 1980s with the finance police and all that.
  20. Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Good point. Given their overall history there probably is angles somewhere. Alot of things to digest.

    What Marty knows. Has he got the knowledge to bring the whole thing down? If so why is he holding back? Does this explain the lite treatment he is getting?

    The role of Rinder? Who knows.

    FWIW I agree with the above poster in saying that DM is nobodys second fiddle but some things dont add up.

    Even with all this, IMHO Marty does serve a purpose for Anon at the moment. What happens later is wait and see stuff.
  21. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    You must be new here.
  22. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Mods, can a new sub-forum be added to WWP? You could call the new sub-forum something like Pointless Speculation or Tin Foil Derail
  23. 8675309 Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    This isn't about cowardice, its about greed.

    These people aren't "practicing the tech" they just want to sell it.

    Marty and his posse see themselves as the scilon government in exile. They eagerly await their chance to return to the throne. They actually think it will happen.

    For them its not about the tech, its about the money and the power.

    All of them were high enough in the cult to know the true secret of scientology. Its all just a giant scam designed soley to benefit those at the top.
  24. Lorelei Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    I can't quite swallow the idea of a long con (from 2004 / 2007) that paints DM as a tiny tyrant with fists of fury in order to throw him to the wolves while promoting Hubbard and the tech (possibly to protect the IRS deal, etc.)

    What I can swallow is that many new exes don't make clean breaks, and it is easier for them to take tiny steps out of the cult mindset than one clean break. IOW, instead of saying, "damn, X years of my life, X dollars spent, etc., etc., and it is ALL a con," they may instead say, "DM is at fault, but LRH / the tech are cool, I wasn't a complete fool," then learn LRH was an even bigger asshole than DM and say, "Well, DM and LRH both were flawed / suck but the "tech" still has some merit," and so on, until they finally figure out it is ALL bullshit (which may never happen for some).

    Whether Marty is at stage one (DM bad, LRH / Tech good) and/or just cynically trying to gather a "Marty's Army" around the idea of toppling DM and taking his place, I don't know. IMO, he's just as likely to be at stage one as many other recent exes are, and he may or may not ever figure out / face up to the fact that LRH was a huge asshole, too, or that the tech is majorly flawed. IOW, I don't see why his position in the church would make him immune to the stepping down v. clean break mindset. If anything, it makes MORE sense for someone who managed to reach a top tier or power in the cult to want to cling to that glory and defend the cult's policies and Exalted Leader, LRH, and to make DM a scapegoat.

    Stir in some "greed is good" mindsets, and you get breakaways like Marty who are comfortable promoting Scientology tech to make a buck as well as "finding the Who" in DM, proclaiming him the sole problem with Scientology, and stopping right there.

    Remember, if Marty acknowledges that the problem goes beyond DM, he also has to face all he did, personally, to prop up the cult. He'll have to face that he did bad, inexcusable, probably illegal, things. As it is, he can probably tell himself "the ends justified the means" and "I was just following orders."

    WE see, very clearly, the details of the con. Those high-level defectors have a self-image of themselves as "good people" to maintain, and are not going to willingly accept that they behaved like BAD people at the behest of two con men to promote a faulty ideology that does not ever produce what it promises. I think that's the far more likely reason why Marty is busily building himself a little empire and finger-pointing at DM: he has to protect his self-image, and delay facing the amount of time, money, energy and effort he has wasted in a cult. What to do? Tell himself it isn't a cult, all problems stem from DM, and he, Marty, can do it so much better. Because, he has to rationalize, "I'm a GOOD guy."

    But maybe I am wrong and you are right.
  25. STC_SOCk2 Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    I don't care about Marty, moar like Farty, amirite?

    Farty is not a serious threat you stupid cunts. Watch his interview on the SPTimes.

    This could be a feeble OSA attempt to cause arguing. But no-one here gives a fuck anyway. So, that's a fail then.
  26. Major Boyle Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    This is nothing more than disaffected Scis trying to pin all the cult's problems on the dwarf. The truth is the tech is the problem. Marty may hope some day he'll be grand poobah, but when the government acts to shut the cult down, there won't be anything worth saving. Despite the cult's best efforts at censorship, intimdation and secrecy, the signal WILL be heard and that spells doom for Scientology.
  27. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    We don't need heavy handed, "OMG tinfoil speculation, kill it with fire!" when we can argue a better explanations of the facts.

    Grumpus I think you might be overlooking the "hindsight is 20/20" illusion. Causal links between past events always seem clearer than those between future events because the past isn't cluttered with considerations of all the things that might happen. Stuff that looks planned often is more the result of accidents and opportunity.

    I've heard that the US military does some deep contingency planning. So fuck you, Luxembourg, if you try to invade. But for the rest of us lacking insane amounts of money, working through more than a handful of contingencies isn't practical. Instead we rely on general, flexible rules of thumb like, "try to get a job with benefits," or "if I don't meet anyone here, move closer to the city."

    Put yourself in Miscavige's shoes. What do you want? I'm guessing a well stocked liquor cabinet, some nice audio visuals for the next Nuremberg rally, hookers with medical clearance, a few cool places to hang, connections with the beautiful people, spyware, big boy toys, and no hassles with The Man.

    Who's your biggest threat? Probably your captains. Unlike the mafia, Scientology doesn't invest in family bonds to counter the natural paranoia that comes with dirty money. So trust among Scientology's leadership will alternate with mistrust and testing, as we've observed.

    Scientology does have a history of infiltration at great expense to itself, so it's reasonable to assume there are plants among the disaffected collecting information that might be used to "handle" threats.

    Good plants sit quietly in their pots. And they don't require expensive planning. Just a bit of water to keep them going.

    tl;dr: 1) Marty is probably not a plant. 2) Alcoholism FTW.
  28. Major Boyle Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Both the US and Canadian military do lots of contingency planning. For example, Canada's war plan for the US required it to launch a rapid preemptive attack on key US facilities (such as Plattsburgh Air Force Base) before the US could mobilize. The US has plans for fighting aliens from another planrt, even.

    Miscavige is firmly in control as long as he controls CST, so he'll just kick out anyone he perceives to be a threat. He may end up being king of a very small kingdom, but I don't see Miscavige leaving until he's in prison.

    I wonder if L Ron's will specified Heber jensch was in charge, at what point did L Ron turn over copyright to CST? If he did not in fact do so, then the cult is making false copyright claims over Hubbard's work. Also, if Hubbard's will may Heber the boss and he wasn't, why would the copyright transfer (if it ever occurred) be valid? We need moar dox on this, methinks.
  29. Lorelei Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Nope. From what I recall, the heirs presumptive were Pat & Annie Broeker. Norman Starkey suddenly & mysteriously replaced Pat as executor, and Miscavige weaseled in as the new head of the cult.

    There's also some jiggery-pokery about LRH's corpse, which, again, IIRC, was cremated in a hurry, but not before Vistaril and injection marks in the bum were documented.

    Oh, here:
    The Mysterious Death of L. Ron Hubbard
  30. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards


    i just found this. it is da shiznat!! check this out, a marty video an0n style!!

    YouTube - Marty Rathbun exclusive interview
  31. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    I recently got friend requests from both Marty and Mike R on facebook.

    I was definitely not feeling it. Declined both.
    Those guy are not my friends.
    I would not trust either of them.
  32. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

  33. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    I know nothing of Failbook, but "keep your enemies close" sometimes is good advice.
  34. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    It felt too slimy for me.
    I know some of what these 2 guys have done.
  35. grumpus Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Yeah, like I said in bold at the start of my tinfoilery, it's just something I was thinking about that *might* be possible. I agree with all of you that it's not the simplest or most probable explanation, especially back as long as 2004.

    I'd say The Man is definitely my biggest worry if I'm DM. He has to keep the IRS deal and he has to keep out of prison. The rest is gravy. And, these days, I don't think he could pull off 20 years of being a fugitive and still keep control and money coming in to him the way Elron did.

    I'm also not sure Miscavige's biggest threats are his captains, the way it was for Elron, unless someone up and whacks him (Moxon disclaimer: I am not advocating violence. Blow me.); I think his biggest threat, and maybe only literal threat, is the U.S. Government. No matter how much damage critics do, I think Co$ might simply be too rich to bleed dry if they don't have to pay taxes AND rich Scilons can keep getting tax writeoffs for donations.

    Critics/media/public rage serve to make the govt. threat more and more real.

    1) I agree it's more likely Marty isn't a plant. 2) lol

    Agreed, though I expect he'll make a break for "Bulgravia" if he knows he's headed to prison for sure. Like I say above, I doubt he can pull it off the same way Elron did, but he might be able to disappear with a lot of money even if it means giving up the cult. Then Anonymous will find him. ;p


  36. Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    The terms "independent" and "Scientologist" are mutually exclusive.
  37. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    Exactly, it is an oxymoron
  38. ArnieLerma Member

    Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    yes.... which brings up the invented corporation whose name is "CHURCH OF SPIRITUAL TECHNOLOGY" to my mind...

    Scientology likes to compare themselves to the Mormons..
    well okay

    The CST Facilities that have been located so far make good apocalyptic survival facilities with underground bunkers.. one with 2000 feet+ of tunnels..huge storage tanks...

    Mr Hubbard repeats over and over in Dianetics that:

    "All life is directed by one command and one command only—SURVIVE!"

    But quite unlike the Mormans

    those CST facilities are secret from rank and file members including most Sea Org at Gold Base.

    and very unlike the Mormons... which make no effort to conceal their survivalist preparations.

    Especially in these times, that makes Scientology a FRAUD


    And CST's articles of incorporation state that
    "The corporation shall have no members"
    the Crestline facility illustrated above is just the HQ for a chain of highly developed secret installations...
  39. Re: Marty and Independants are a bunch of cowards

    I hear there's a new MCOPL (Marty communications office policy letter) called "Keeping Marty Working," which explains that the tech is really, really good and that DM is an SP... something like that.

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