[Marty]: Donation trends

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Kha Khan, May 26, 2010.

  1. Kha Khan Member

    [Marty]: Donation trends

    For those of you who don't like "Marty" cross-posts, what the hell are you doing reading this given the [Marty] warning in the subject line? :)

    Standard disclaimer, see signature below. Also, please understand that the following is unverified hearsay, so it is best that you ignore this post and move along, ok?

    Still here? Excerpt from Abolish the IAS:
    The point Marty is trying to make is interesting, and I've heard and read Marty and many, many others make the same point (albeit without numbers) for years. That is, an increasing percentage of the money that comes into the COS comes in the form of IAS contributions for which the contributor receives no services (in Scientologese, no "exhange" or "out exchange"), and a decreasing percentage of the money that comes into the COS is in exchange for services rendered (i.e., auditing or training).

    This is important for many reasons. One of which is that auditors, auditing, training, and course supervisors -- i.e., the supposed reasons for the existence of the COS -- become increasingly economically less important. Ironically, the COS is becoming more like a "regular," mainstream church, where the donations are "pure" donations, and not for services rendered. Except, of course, that unlike many "regular," mainstream churches the COS does not perform any charity -- no schools, no hospitals, no food banks, no homeless shelters; what services are still provided are provided only for (grossly inflated) fees.

    Another reason this is important is that it makes the COS less manpower dependent. Indeed, manpower becomes a cost of business that generates less and less income. (Even if it is just food, room, board and $24 a week, or a pitiful Class V salary.) Auditing (excluding some OT levels) is a one-on-one activity. It requires auditors. Auditors require training. Training requires staff -- course supervisors, word clearers, qual, and support staff. In contrast, squeezing the last dime out of a COS public requires only a Reg.

    Another point is important. These are the commissions paid to only the top 10 FSMs. Twenty years ago.

    The FSM commission is 10%. So total FSM commissions of $2,261,472.90 earned by the top ten FSMs represents total gross income in 1991 of $22,614,729.00 generated, again, by only the top 10 FSMs. 20 years ago.

    In addition, the more money the public spend on the IAS and Idle Orgs, the less money they have to spend on auditing and training. The result is that the public becomes discouraged, disillusioned and disaffected.

    Finally, I find interesting Marty's comment about, "TV actors jettisoning their careers to go where the real money was (e.g. Pomerantz and Roberts)." I knew professional FSMs who made a nice living. I'll admit I was (and to an extent probably still am) naive. It never occurred to me that Pomerantz, Roberts et al. essentially abandoned their acting careers not out of love the LRH, but because being a high profile FSM is where the money is.

    ESMB thread: [Marty]: Donation trends

  2. CarterUSP Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    This sounds like good news. It also makes me feel a little ineffective as an anon. DM has been successfully destroying the 'church' long before we came along.
    Will just have to do it for the lulz instead
  3. andonanon Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    The problem I have with this is that in addition to being twenty years old, three years are not very many data points from which to draw any kind of conclusion. I have looked at a lot of financial info regard scientology entities and they are remarkably inconsistent from year to year.
  4. Kha Khan Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Very good point.

    While I don't have the numbers to back it up, my feeling after reading and talking to a lot of people over the years is that Marty is right. From what I hear and read (and experienced for a short time), a greater percentage of COS income comes in the form of "pure," "out-exchange" donations (i.e., IAS and Idle Orgs), and a smaller percentage comes from fees for services (i.e., auditing, training).

  5. andonanon Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Well I certainly hope that is true. I have read a lot of talk about how stats are crashing, especially since Chanology started, and I have been trying to find financial information to back it up. So far no luck. The information just doesn't seem to be available. They seem to still be able to buy a lot of real estate.
  6. Kha Khan Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    I honestly don't know if all of the stats are crashing. I think it may depend on which stats you are talking about.

    If we are talking about number of Scientologists, number of PCs, number of Scientologists training in Div. 2, number of Scientologists in Div 6, bodies in the shop, WDAH, etc., I have no doubt that stats are down. No doubt. One only has to look at the Orgs. They are empty. Even when I was first in, in the early / mid 1980s, there were a lot of people at Big Blue. The streets at lunch and dinner breaks had plenty of people. (And even then I was hearing from multiple sources that it wasn't like it used to be.) Mid 1990s -- significantly less. Early 2000s, even less. Now? Pffft.

    But if you talking only about money, I'm not so sure. I hear there are a significant number of big IAS, Idle Org, and Power donors who essentially purchase status and/or indulgences. I wouldn't be surprised if the COS was still pulling in the money. (I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.) But on measures of actual membership, activity and production -- downstat.

  7. Lorelei Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Any chance that asking for updated stats might result in receiving updated stats? More data points = more info = more useful.

    Also: thanks, Kha Khan, for taking the bullet for us and reposting.
  8. Kha Khan Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    To tell you the truth, I wouldn't ask. I don't think it would do any good, and I loath to ask or appear the least bit desperate or needy.

    Seriously, I think Marty is very sharp, very cunning, and playing a very close game for keeps. [He wouldn't have risen to and stayed at the top of one of the most Darwinian groups on the planet if he wasn't sharp and cunning.] My impression is that Mary is doling out information very slowly and always with a purpose. Every little bit he discloses creates pressure on and uncertainty in the opposition. He won't be rushed. He sure as hell won't be rushed to suit our agenda. He has his cards and he is going to play them to maximize his own agenda.

    He also has only so much capital in this regard. I think part of his game with DM may be MAD -- Mutually Assured Destruction -- and iterated prisoner's dilemma. If Marty discloses everything prematurely he will be out of ammunition and his deterrence will fail. I suspect that DM has not come after Marty harder out of fear of what Marty is holding back and could and would release if he truly has nothing to lose. Think second strike capability from deterrence theory.

    With Marty it is drip, drip, drip, drip. Coercion while maintaining deterrence. Very sharp.

  9. grumpus Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    You're right, Marty, only not in the way you try to be.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist; what it takes is data to know where it went from there, not what you think of as "extrapolation." Data you don't supply. You can't show an isolated three-year period twenty years ago and just ASSERT that a one-year spike in 1991 was actually part of sustained growth, and even if it was, that it continued or increased. You can't assert a single thing about those numbers (assuming they're real) except what they mean for 1989-1991.

    Unless you're using Elronian Logic, of course.
  10. chrisanon Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Extremely intelligent analysis; cogent and the best I've seen. I never thought of it like this and I think you're absolutely right.
  11. Kha Khan Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    As a matter of logic, math and statistics, you are absolutely right.

    [And it might not be completely irrelevant that what is taught as "statistics" in the COS is at the level taught to, at most, third graders in the real world. Perhaps second? Basically the use of graph paper and trying not to make the scales look too stupid.]

    As a practical matter -- and I'm asserting this based only on what I experienced in my early days in the COS and what I've heard and read from numerous sources since -- I think Marty is right. Not right because of the 1991 bump, but I experienced the trend for awhile and have heard of it for years.

    Think of it from you own observation. The Orgs are empty. How much can they be earning from the delivery of services? On the other hand, all you hear about is Idle Org and IAS donations.

    Anything but scientific, but I think that is where things are. YMMV.

  12. grumpus Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Oh, I don't argue that Co$ isn't losing people or necessarily doubt that the ratio of "services" vs. IAS money has moved in that direction. I just wanted to point out - as you note - that Marty's attempt at using those "stats" as foundation for his claim was utter non-sequitir crap. It's comical, really. It's not even a half-decent excuse for sneaky statistics. It's just... rofl.

    Whenever Marty is the topic, it's always worth mentioning that he's full of shit - and even more worth mentioning when he provides such tidy examples.
  13. Kha Khan Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    What I found equally, if not more, interesting was the income of the top 10 FSMs during that period of time, and what it said about total gross income. (Recognizing that a lot of income does not generate any FSM commissions, much less commissions to those in the top 10.)

  14. Anonymous Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Whistleblower extraordinaire Marty Rathbun discloses information already easily found on the net (the figures from 1989-1991)...
  15. Jinkii Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    yes, once again the ex executive from everyones favourite cult uses information avaliable through a three word search using any search engine you choose, we are so lucky that he managed to get out to bring us such valuable information.
    whats next from our man from the inside? the square footage of all orgs in 1974-77?
    let us hope not, i doubt i could handle the excitement generated by that easily found data.
    tell us where the bodies are buried Ratburn or FOAD.
  16. BLiP Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Pure speculation on my part - but - if every public Scilon walked out tomorrow the cult would probably have enough cash reserves and real estate investments to last a thousand years. Waddya reckon?
  17. DeathHamster Member

  18. Anonymous Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    He just wants us to tuck bills between his moobs before he takes off more clothing.

    Does he really think that Davey will go gentle into that good night?
  19. Anonymous Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Write this in big letters.

    This is a "church" that pays commissions.

    WTF. Just WTF.
  20. Anonymous Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    They call it "fundraising fees." That's the thing with CoS, they use all the loopholes to the max. The only remedy I can think of is quite simple: No more special treatments for churches (all of them), they all need to disclose their finances like any other non-profits. This would be a big first step forward in routing out many scammers.
  21. DeathHamster Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Don't forget the Dead Man Switch.

    Just think, if either Marty or Dave choked on a pretzel tonight, we'd be straight into the End Game.

    allo, Pretzel Incorporated? I have a "delivery" for you...
  22. RightOn Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    yep ever since he took over in 1986 and "cleaned house" starting with the staff.
    but don't ever feel ineffective. Just because he has been busy destroying COS....
    doesn't mean that his fail was being exposed.
    Or are you just joshing? It's too early in the day for me to distinguish
  23. CarterUSP Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Staff salaries are certainly not a big drain on the coffers. Selling some of those big empty buildings could float them for a while.
    Looks like paying for lawyers is their only significant outgoing.
  24. AnonLover Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Meh, so what if marty reposted old info - its the comments on this piece that are the most revealing.

    And imo this is opening a can of tnt & lighting a fuse that is much MUCH bigger than marty's agenda. I'm all for letting the FZ'rs & Indies Abolish the IAS while we continue dismantling the church in its current form.

    The fall of the mother church at the end of the war will ultimately trump the damage done by their battle against IAS. And with the fall of the mothership will come the fall of all things connected to LRH. So even tho i faithfully subscribe to the FREEZONE-DO-NOT-WANT newsletter, i say "GOGOGOGO indies" to marty & co taking on the IAS.

    Follow the money, straight into the heart of the rabbit hole... and stock up on large quantities of lube & popcorn. Shi- gonna get funny as hell when this attack on the ca$hflow gets handled :)
  25. Anonymous Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Posted 11 September 2009 - 08:40 PM

    The IAS goes under different names depending upon the agency or location; In CA, the name is IAS Administrations, Inc. The IRS pub 78 lists it as " US I. A. S. Members Trust in Los Angeles CA USA " Currently it's charitable registry is pending with the state of CA. Hopefully they are being audited. lol You can see that and other info on the IAS entities, below.

    dba IAS ADMINISTRATIONS CLEARWATER BRANCH OFFICE has data on the IAS as "Foundation International Membership Services Administrations, Inc."

    "Foundation International Membership Services Administrations, Inc."
    IRS pub 78 " US I. A. S. Members Trust Los Angeles CA USA -- A public charity with a 50% deductibility limitation.
    US I. A. S. Members Trust not listed at CA AJ
    Number: C1967046 Date Filed: 4/23/1996 Status: surrender
    BOX 3335
    Agent for Service of Process
    6300 CANOGA AVE STE 315
    The information displayed here is current as of "SEP 04, 2009" and is updated weekly. It is not a complete or certified record of the Corporation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Search



    CLEARWATER, FL 33756-5109

    Financial Snapshot
    Revenue: $0
    Assets: $0

    EIN: 980136014
    NTEE: -
    Group Exemption Number: 0000
    SubSection: 03 - Charitable Organizations
    Affiliate: 3 - Independent - This code is used if the organization is an independent organization or an independent auxiliary (i.e., not affiliated with a National, Regional, or Geographic grouping of organizations).
    Classification: 1 - Corporation
    Deductibility: 2 - Contributions are not deductible.
    Foundation: 17 - Organizations operated solely for the benefit of and in conjunction with organizations described in 10 through 16 above.
    Filing Requirement: 130 -
    Activity Code(s): 004 - Religious Activities
    927 - Other Purposes and Activities
    000 -

    Fictitious Name Detail
    Fictitious Name

    Filing Information
    Document Number G97044000264
    Status ACTIVE
    Filed Date 02/13/1997
    Expiration Date 12/31/2012
    Current Owners 1
    County PINELLAS
    Total Pages 3
    Events Filed 2
    FEI Number 98-0136014

    Mailing Address
    P.O. BOX 1230
    CLEARWATER, FL 33757
    Owner Information
    FEI Number: 98-0136014
    Document Number: F96000001900

    California: The Attorney General’s Registry of Charitable Trusts is pleased to announce its new online search feature. The new search feature allows you to search for information on charities, charity fundraising professionals, and raffle registrants that are registered with the Registry. It also allows you to view some basic information regarding charities that either are not currently registered with our office or are exempt from registration and reporting to the Registry.

    Registrant Information

    Type: 0 Corporate or Organization Number: 3088075

    RCT Registraton No:
    Record Type: Charity Registration Type: Charity Registration
    Issue Date: Expiration Date:
    Registration Status: Pending Date This Status: 3/4/2008
    Date of Last Renewal:

    Address Information

    Address Line 1: 1311 N NEW HAMPSHIRE AVE Phone:
    Address Line 2:
    Address Line 3:
    Address Line 4: LOS ANGELES CA 90027
    Annual Renewal Information
    No Related Documents

    The information displayed here is current as of "SEP 04, 2009" and is updated weekly. It is not a complete or certified record of the Corporation. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number: C3088075 Date Filed: 8/27/2007 Status: active
    Jurisdiction: DELAWARE
    LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
    Agent for Service of Process
    6400 CANOGA AVE STE 315

    To check a charity:

    ■The Attorney General also offers guidance to help Californians make important personal decisions on charitable giving. These resources include the Guide to Charitable Giving for Donors, pdf and searchable databases to learn about specific charities and charitable fundraising professionals in the state. Among the databases are Registry Search, for registrants generally, and CFR Search, which provides information and documents regarding commercial fundraisers for charitable purposes. For

    help using and interpreting the results from Registry Search, please review Registry Search Feature – What do the codes mean?
    Charity Research ToolA searchable database of the information returns that charities file annually with the IRS (Forms 990, 990-PF, and 990-EZ) is available on the Attorney General’s website.

    Form 990 Library
  26. theLastAnon Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

  27. Anonymous Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    I'll ask again, why do we need an entire thread devoted to everything this guy blogs? I would bet that his own blog takes up far less space then all the [STRIKE]shit[/STRIKE]cross-posting here.
  28. Timmibal Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Because when you're holding in as much info as Marty seems to be, occasionally (read: Rarely) there is something useful buried within the mounds of rancid shit.

    And crossposting means less unique hits to his fail blog.
  29. xenubarb Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    This is assuming that the only factor is a lack of paying public. Now, let's add in a couple of other possible factors.

    Cult having to pay taxes on its real estate, should it lose its tax exemption.
    Cult having to pay minimum wage and benefits should it lose the Headley/DeCrescenzo cases.
    Cult having to compensate a whole lot of other people who may sue if the above succeeds.

    RTC is actually keeping a couple of the Idle Orgs and missions afloat. This reversal of money flow is pretty unusual, and suggests that the gravy train is winding down.

    The biggest blow would be the loss of their tax exemption in the US. Where others dream of space hookers, I dream of this.
  30. OTBT Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    I have to agree with this logic. Freezoners and Indies don't have tax exemption, and don't have Sea Org. Yet anyway.

    So even though I pretty much despise FZers and Indies, they are, of course, free to believe HubbardCrap ® all they want. At this point, they are not the enemy. Beliefs are not the problem, crimes and abuses are.

    Dismantle the business conglomerate and front groups of scientology. I suspect FZ won't survive long without a steady trickle of CofS exiting Troo Believers to keep them afloat.

    / disclaimer, I'm on my 4th Guinness Stout, your logic may vary.
  31. DeathHamster Member

    Re: [Marty]: Donation trends

    Sure, let them continue to run methadone clinics for the Scientology addicts who can't quit cold-turkey. (Some, like Tom Cruise, might say that's just masking the symptoms, but that's not what harm reduction is about.)

    /mmmm, Guinness!

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