Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by timthephoto, Sep 19, 2009.


Vote on Marty

I DO Trust Marty 12 vote(s) 7.8%
STILL waiting /popcorn 57 vote(s) 37.0%
I DO NOT Trust Marty 85 vote(s) 55.2%
  1. amaX Member


    I do not forget who I am and I do not forget why I came here.

    Here's a pile of sleeping, hugging cats for you:

  2. Zak McKracken Member



    (sry. I mispastaed one of the links in my previous post. try again?)
  3. TypingChimp Member


    ^^^This. Couldn't've said it better.
  4. Anonymous Member


    Homeopathy in the US is only certified by the FDA to the extent that it's safe to eat for the consumer - there's no government certification saying that it works.

    As I said, I would be fine with them treating it like homeopathy, and as the government makes sure that homeopathic medicine with significant amounts of poison in them are not sold, they would not allow introspection rundown, at least not without some kind of safety function to avoid a repeat of Lisa McPherson or Martine Boublil.


    As long as he's not calling himself a psychologist, there's no need for him to get formal training. He operates in the "alternative treatment" field, and as long as he's not breaking any laws regarding illegal advertising or illegal practice of medicine, he's free to do as he wants without having to get a degree or certification.

    Actually, Scientology is one of the few cults which did not collapse when their leader died. Most cults die with their leader.

    That does not fit with historical experience. As I said most cults collapse when they lose their leader, only a very few live on after that.

    DM was able to do what few have managed, that is supplanting the former cult leader and making himself the new "prophet". If DM was allowed to groom his successor and do a planned handover, then perhaps it would continue in the same abusive fashion. But if there's a "revolution" where DM is deposed, then Scientology might look different in many ways afterwards. How different, I don't know. Perhaps it might even become a religion? Or just an LRH fan club?
  5. JKS Member


    /popcorn --- but i don't trust him. Who would?!
  6. timthephoto Member


    herro there's enuff threads about Marty, and plenty of duscussion

    i just just put up a poll to guage opinion on this man, who many ppl think ought to come a bit moar clean than the SP times article, and "i hit my bff mike"
  7. mrfyde Member


    Sorry if I am confused but I was under the impression that you already replyed to my post, I guess that is one of the downsides of Anonymous posting.

    So we agree that it would be dangerous to let LRH tech go unchecked ?

    I said :

    If you want to endorse the practice of quacks and faith healers you have the right to do so I simply stated that I do not.

    I gave at least 4 examples of cults that don't dissolve when the leader is removed (for what ever reason) and could have offered more, you have given no examples of cults that don't survive the death of the leader. If you want to say Jim Jone's people's temple, Charlie Manson's The Family, or Heaven's Gate you would be correct, but in those cases the cult members died (or went to prison) with the leader and makes it very difficult for the organization to survive.

    So when you say:

    You are talking out your ass.

    [STRIKE]Oh so you mean like the Unification Church, (the Moonies) became a religion when the leader handed it over to his son, OR the Branch Dividians when it was handed over to David Koresh. (I think Children of God, has also been passed down) [/STRIKE]

    Edit I reread what you had written, and my response did not apply to the last section (stricken) , but take for example the FLDS they are the result when it was unclear what Joseph Smith wanted for his followers after his death. (I am not saying all Mormons are in a cult)

    You are talking platitudes and maybes .
  8. scino Member


    Rathbun was a senior high ranking SO officer living hiis own personal power trip
    at the expense of his subordinates. He then got demoted to a low condition.

    Just my 0,02c worth of an interpretation,
    This must have been so humiliating to him that he promised David Miscavige the ultimate revenge. Everything Rathbun does is planned and controlled by hate.
  9. Anonymous Member


    (not the OP, btw)

    LaRouche cult survived the loss of its leadar?

    Not really. They never really lost him.

    His cult went semi-quiet for a few years when he got v&,
    but he kept in close contact with his disciples throughout,
    ran for congress (fail), president (doublefail), and when he got out
    went right back to the same old.

    Think: well-heeled mafia boss. Prison may cramp their style, but it won't hurt their business.

    Most cults, historically *do* die with their founders.
    Most cults vanish without a trace, and never make it into the books except as footnotes.

    The cults you've heard of are the exceptional ones- that were notable enough to be remembered. They tend to be tougher than average.

    notable failcults:
    * The Cult of Aton (middle kingdom Egypt)
    * Various random messianic jewish cults (~ ca. 1st C. BCE - 1st C. CE)
    contemporary historians documented a slew of them, but only one managed to survive. Because its leadar had resurrection tech.
    * roughly half of the well documented "new religious movements" of 18th-19th C. CE America. Many of them outlived their founders, only as a rotting corpse that mouldered on until the remaining members died.
    * small-scale cults in medieval China.

    If you liek, I can collate some dox. Will have to do some digging.
    (because failcults (i.e. most cults) don't leave much behind)

    Sure, lots of cults do survive and 'prosper'.
    But seeing that as the norm, imo is mostly due to selection bias...
  10. mrfyde Member


  11. Anonymous Member


    The problem is that the word 'FREE' and the word 'SCIENTOLOGY' are mutually incompatible.
  12. Anonymous Member


    If you mean the centrally controlled and trademark-protected Scientology(R) as run by the current management, then you are correct, but some parts of the freezone are both free as in liber and free as in beer. Not all of the freezone is free though - that is a misconception.
  13. Anonymous Member


    Totally unchecked? Yes that would be bad. But having some legal checks on it doesn't mean that it should be totally banned either.

    I am willing to accept some freedom to practice faith-based and alternative treatments as long as it's not harmful and not subject of false advertisement. I wouldn't demand that a seller of food supplements get a doctorate in medicine either.

    I admit that I was just passing on what I've heard cult experts say on this point, but see what the other anon says - most cults fail. You make an interesting point though: Perhaps what's unusual about those cults isn't surviving their leaders, but lasting for any significant time in the first place.

    Oh, I agree - if Scientology were to become a benign religion, there could still be cults forming within it, just like cults form within the LDS, Christianity, Islam and other religions.

    mmm? Human nature isn't always easy to pin down in simple categorical and eternal truths, and it's especially difficult to predict the future. Sorry if I'm being master of the obvious.
  14. JohnnyRUClear Member


    We beat the exACT SAME people that THEY beat. :mad:
  15. Anonymous Member


  16. TypingChimp Member


  17. mrfyde Member


    I don't have a crystal ball, but the conversation is about the continuation of an organization that was started as a cult and about the person who wants to continue the belief system. He is not concerned about his mistreatment of others while in the CoS and continues to show signs of cult like behavior. (IMO)

    I don't mind you rewording my posts, but if you could put a "Fix't" or fify under it when you put words in mouth it would be appreciated. :)

    and I was only aware of two shakers left


    salt and pepper
  18. TypingChimp Member


    FWIW, the Shakers were considered extremely controversial and cultish in their heyday, though as their numbers began to wane, so did the controversy surrounding them. The Oneida Community died off and is now a company specializing in crystal and the like (very nice work, btw); the underlying beliefs are dead. The Millerites became the Seventh-Day Adventists, though I'm not sure how culty they were back in the early-mid 19th.
  19. Anonymous Member


    Can you add a 4th line to the poll.

    Like... I WANT TO WATCH Marty try to swim out of a vat of boiling oil.
  20. Anonymous Member


    This thread serves no purpose whatsoever


    K thanks inadvance
  21. WarriorMark Member


    He's a slimeball.

    I say Marty (and for that matter, Mike Rinder, as well) are slimeballs. They are pointing the finger at David Miscavige with the intent of scaring him into a settlement and a gag agreement.

    Mark my words: Within a year or two, Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun will have collected their payoff, and Scientology will continue on as the nasty, abusive, criminal cult it has always been.
  22. Zak McKracken Member


    Is this from the "helping all of mankind" part
    or the "unspeakable attrocities" part?

    The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered.
  23. Anonymous Member


    Oh you silly goose. Atrocities for the sake of helping all of mankind. Don't you see? Learn to doublethink - it will come in very handy in a Scientology run society.
  24. Anonymous Member


    So no matter if your sending your dollars to the COB or not, if your KSW, your still against human rights? Marty might not be the same animal, he is still predator like DM. So the species might be splitting apart in order to KSW just like living cells split in order to propagate.
  25. Mutante Member


    This thread has two more pages to get funny or I'm waking Viktor.
  26. Anonymous Member

  27. Anonymous Member


    If a scientologists can jump the gun, they will jump the gun.
  28. AnonyMary Member


    I'm gonna rant here for a few mins. The mods can edit it or delete it but I'm gonna write it and post it . I tied my best to reason with that man and I have to tell you, he's still stuck in the mindset of a scilon and refuses to even consider looking at the facts.

    What I've found, after reading his recent blog pieces, is that he is really just a 'scilon with an SP declare'. He wants very much to be the inspector General of RTC that he was before he gave up trying to fix things in Scientology with Knowledge Reports, before he blew. So now he's out here trying to do what he could not accomplish while inside and still a member. That's how I see it. He tried to to fix Hubbard's insane tech at Flag and met with resistance - like so many of us did for complaining- but he's got the wrong 'why'. He defends Hubbard 100 % and puts all the blame on DM alone. Very foolish. Very ignorant.

    Now, I don't particularly like the free zone but if that is what fools want to do, so be it. Not Marty. He thinks he's the exception to the FZ rule and all others are evil. He's going to save the tech, as if it was worth saving. It's like he never left scientology. He attacks exes, critics and anons for doing what they should be doing. It's that bad! The problems is that now he's squirreling in the field just like the people he beetches about but he does not see it that way. He calls all OG and posters at ARS etc ' anti-scientology agents for DM' just because DM used critic's comments about him against him. God knows what he thinks of Anonymous!

    He defends IRS exemption, the attacks on exs,, and tries to pin all the fair game tactics Hubbard used for decades which DM is now using on him as if DM invented them!

    The paranoia seems to be setting in, with all the fair game tactics being played on him by OSA and the PI's trailing him and his family to the point where everyone is a PI in his eyes... too bad he won't look a step further and see that this is what scientology does and has done since the 1950's to it's enemies. He might recognize that there is an army of victims of that crap that might be of help to him. But no, ... he won't have anything to do with anyone who does not believe in Hubbard and the tech.

    I am not alone in having dreamed that he and & Rinder might put their heads together and use that SP tech, that Fair Game tech (within reason) to their advantage to close this cult down. Between the two of them , if they were willing to admit their past errors & transgressions against people in and outside of scientology, they might be able to see and call scientology for what it truely is. But Marty seems like a hopeless case. Rinder... well, that remains to be seen.

    Unfortunately, Marty's too self absorbed and still into being the Inspector General of RTC to see that the game is over and never was a real game to begin with.

    There was a time when I was in scientology when there were few people as obsessed in Keeping Scientology Working as I was, so I can relate to that obsession. The idea of a big job title and the power that comes with it is enticing, so I can only imagine the loss Marty must feel from having fallen from such a high level of 'grace' to the prairie land of Texas, lol.

    Well, we all who left fell and got ourselves up and moved on and up. It was hard to accept the truth that most of Scientology was of no real value, especially that scientology was designed to stop people from thinking and evaluating information independently. We made ROBOTS in the course room and overwhelmed beings in session. All those efforts to get the correct tech and policy in were wasted because the tech and policies were designed to enslave and indoctrinate people in the first place

    Hubbard was brilliant in a way, brilliant in manipulating people. But so was Hitler. So there comes a time when one had to face reality, which I fortunately did. And if I can confront and consider all I have done as a scientologist in the past and accept the factual information that exists about this cult and what it has done to people and their families, so can Marty.

    I'd say ' leave the door open a crack', but I suspect that his button on self importance may be too big to get through it.
  29. Re: MARTY - LET'S VOTE!

    Voted no, since I trust no-one.
  30. Anonymous Member


    Whoever controls the finances controls CoS. Miscavige got to where he is because he was the only one who knew where the money was. As long as DM can control the funds he will remain in control of the cult. Does anyone know who actually holds title to all that real estate? My guess is that it's structured so that it can't be touched even if the CoS goes down. Marty will not be able to resurrect or gain control of CoS in its present form or utilize the existing assets unless he comes up with a scheme to separate DM from the cash and real estate. If Marty wants to be the head honcho of CoS, let him give it his best shot. He'll have to do it without the bank accounts, though.
  31. Anonymous Member


    Nazi's did more then genocide. scientology is guilty of a lot of similar tactics they used minus the large genocide, but they do have propaganda out that does endorses this notion of a certain set of people. I'm really tired of the but, but they didn't kill 11 million derail/stop thought bs.
  32. Re: MARTY - LET'S VOTE!

    Do you think he knows how to power wash a house, or cut a lawn? If not I have no use for him
  33. Anonymous Member


    They just havn't had the chance yet.
  34. timthephoto Member


    exactly, they have tried to make a chance many times, by trying to take over whole governments. like morocco, bulgaria come to mind without even resorting to lermanet for details.

    notice how we are talkin Herro's agenda of "the cult ain't all that bad" AGAIN
  35. Re: MARTY - LET'S VOTE!

    Good post, AnonMary. I like it and as far as this thread goes, I vote for you. I'll add, button-on-self-importance + media = match-made-in-heaven. They make good dance partners.

    Me, I don't give a crap what Marty or Rinder say or think or believe. Marty can have his little kumbaya circle of ex-scientologists if he wants, I really don't care. I only care when these people go to the media and expose the disaster that is the "church of scientology". Rinder speaking out to major media would re-energize the movement, among other things and he should be encouraged to do so.

    Re: POLL, none of the above.
    Stupid POLL choices are stupid.
  36. Re: MARTY - LET'S VOTE!

    Excellent post, Mary, i agree with Polly, i hope Rathbun and Rinder really want to come clean and help end the abuses, everything i've seen so far has been very self-serving, they can't be trusted to release anything that isn't in their own self- interest.

    I would like to see them get immunity if they tell all and help end the scam. Rathbun is clearly trying to keep on selling Hubbard's tech. There is no such thing as a kinder, gentler Scientology because by design, Hubbard's policies, fair-game, RPF's, entheta etc. in and of themselves require the abuse of members including children. Otherwise, you are not following Hubbard's writings and "perfect" tech to the letter and that is severely out-ethics and Not Scientology.
  37. Anonymous Member


    Godwin's Law, people. Google it. The Nazi comparisons are distracting from the real issues here.

    I voted popcorn. And I support immunity for the high-level officials that have come forward after being declared. If MR is ambitious and sees a market for non-Miscavige followers to practice the tech (a subject on which I am neutral) then provided it is not a for-profit enterprise to line his pockets, we do have such a thing as religious freedom in the free world. Not by the CO$ definition, but by natural rights to believe or not believe as we choose. It is up to each and all of us to make informed choices should we choose to practice any religion.

    tl;dr: Sometimes it's OK to rob Peter, but never to pay Paul, and Nazi comparisons drag every discussion down - again, Godwin's rule.
  38. Anonymous Member


    So is it a "Market" or a "Religion" ? you have platitudes on each side of the coin, you would do well in Scientology.

    Immunity from what ? and in exchange for what ? And why would you say it is O.K. as long as he does not line his pockets if it is in the market place exchanging a service for money ?

    Yes it is up to us to choose what we want to believe, but he is not offering the tech in it's entirety and then saying "do you believe this like I do?" And is not offering people any choice other than, do you want to follow me in my quest against the evil David Miscavige ? or do you want to he an agent of the evil David Miscavige?

    When is it OK to rob Peter ?
  39. Anonymous Member


    he is driven by power or by money. Take a prick (see what i did there?)

    he is a nutjob and very soon we will heard him saying he saw a UFO.
  40. Anonymous Member


    Money really all management in Scientology ever really thinks about?

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