Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by ChurchOfCylontology, May 10, 2011.
they all have proven they are not the brightest bunch...yes, we do.
Yes. Wrathbum is the past prince of scieno-footbulletry and fail-faggotry like the Netcom caper.
Actually, yes I do. He's not very intelligent for all the BIG BOY words he uses and the many BIG BOY HUBBARD books in his house.
He's opened himself up for liability for 'counseling' without a proper license and/or without being officially ordained in any organization. It will only take one ex-cult member to sue him for a tort on the basis of perpetuating a known harmful practice (or 'tech' in culti-lingo). This may or may not fall into an IIED category but he's a moron if he doesn't lawyer up and get some type of formal license/liability insurance.
maybe his pidgeons have to sign waivers? Something like "I promise I won't sue you, give me the damn tech man!"
or wouldn't signing a waiver matter?
You can still sue even if you've signed a waiver (for fucks sake, how many signed a billion year agreement?). There are ways to argue yourself out of that one. And since when has any piece of paper stopped this awful cult from suing anyone?
<cough> Donations are income
<cough> All income must be reported
<cough> Waivers can be considered unconscionable and invalid.
I gotta get that cough taken care of.
Also: I found it too hard to create a Hypertextlink to a piece of bioware.
Just go on esmb and pm exsomessenger.
This was my reply from a thread about the same article:
No other cult experience takes longer to recover from than scientology. (oer Flo Conway and Seiglman's book) I cannot imagine being Mr Rinder and then leaving. I am of the belief that the hard copy docs do exist. That he left is fact. In july or august 2007? (I think or 2008, it was hot, and I was still at my home of 26 years in Arlington which I sold in september 2008) Mr Minton who was intouch with Mr Rinder as his "terminal" for settlement of all cases told me that Mr Rinder no longer was answering his telephone at OSA INT. That was my confirmation that the rumors that Mr Rinder had left were factual. In my opinion he is at step 3 or 4 of 8 steps out LINK
Note: The rabbit head left in the sand for the kids to see was recounted to me over a decade ago...
There are consequences for the material he is posting, both Tory and Chuck Beatty, IMO now have a pretty good case for the Civil claim of "Intentional inducement of emotional duress" as well as conspiracy against rights guaranteed by the Constitutin.. though the latter is a tough row to row Lawrence Wollersheim won on the prior cause as well as "Tortious interference in business" (wording is wrong) but like that. Rich Leiby and his exwife now do too.
Perhaps Mr Rinder understands more than you give him credit for. Perhaps, just perhaps, he is acting on his intimate understanding that the only thing $cientology cares about is money. If the beast were bled to death, by adverse civil judgements, no matter what its size, it would collapse utterly.
Perhaps, but I would like to believe differently. I would like to believe that Mr Rinder is doing all he can to help our cause in his own way, as he rebuilds his humanity, while recovering his conscience.
It takes a long time to recover from the misuse of the advanced discoveries in psychology, which are, in my opinion what makes $cientology appear to 'work'. See the Oppenhiemer post HERE
AND There has been personal beneficial fallout from his blog entries... which i will describe at some point in the future.
Mr Rinder is in recovery, we all were for varying periods of time.. His previous post as ED OSA INT put him in a position that I find would be extremely difficult to extricate a mind from, - I mean look at it this way... many osa personnel run away and hide from the memories of the harms they did, Mr Rinder seems to have chosen to begin the road to recovery by starting to confront them. IF his countenance at times seems to lack grace, -remember that it is easy to act without grace - especially when navigating uncharted waters.
Give this time to play out, the show has just begun.
I forgot.....it is ex-Scilon-Spot-the-Loony-Day
Give me a fucking break. There's a HUGE difference between honesty & integrity "in recovery" versus hiding behind a smoke screen (Marty's blog) to address issues in a vein where Mike can deny personal culpability for HIS actions, rather, to date, it has all been blame DM for everything DM has done & everything Mike & Marty did under DM's watch.
Word clear 'Nuremberg defense'. It applies here as well. http://www.adversity.net/Terms_Definitions/TERMS/Nuremberg_Defense.htm
No comments from Marty's Camp or OSA:
The accounts mentioned within the documents do match activities known to have occurred at the times stated.
This all started with messages left by a reporter with an internal phone number at CST, and the surveillance efforts
were more extensive than yet described.
Thank you Mr Smurf,
Time will tell. I am glad they are doing what they are doing, I agree that i wish they would do more, but then what if each of us did a little more also?
I understand your concern, now indulge me for a moment, as I attempt to widen the field of view for better perspective...
Regarding Nuremberg, it was a show trial that held the public attention while (per my source) thousands of nazis were brought over into the USA, given new identies and assigned to US Intelligence agencies and US corporations - ostensibly so that "The Russians would not get their knowlege. Allen Dullus who was station chief for OSI (it was called at the time, then later CIA & DIA) recovered vast quantities of Nazi research in exchange for bringing the Nazi's best and brightest to the good old USA. While Wiki claims only about 850 were brought for the space program etc... my source, whose father ran Operation Paperclip, and was at one time a Director at The Ford Foundation whose nickname was "The Fifth Rider of the Apocalypse", claims it was thousands. It is a matter of record that the German intelligence agency run by Reihard Ghelen (Pardon my brutal spelling) stayed intact and merely changed paymasters but reported to OSI later called CIA - because "The Communists" were to be the next bogeyman...
Further In the Nuremberg Trials, the evidence of the cultic nature of the Third Reich was suppressed BY THE PROSECUTION so that those on trial would not escape the death penalty by claim of insanity!!
I am asked all the time why is it that an abomination such as $cientology is tolerated at all in a supposed civil society, a supposed democratic society... well, perhaps, in fact we live in neither. There can be no true democracy Athenian style - (The Athenians trained their children to be good administrators, and government service was chosen by lottery) when the public has been successfully dumbed down to a point they know little true history and the Media appears to be a controlled orchestra being directed by the federal Government, and bankers. Our supposed constitutional government "of the people, by the people and for the people, has devolved to a totalitarian state authority (a play on TSA's current ablity to fondle your genitals at airport checkpoints...) of the money, by the money and for the money!
The truth is often strangest of all.
What if Scientology is (as it appears to me to be) a proof-of-concept for the New world order?
A Partner at the capitol hill lawfirm of Ross, Dixon, Masback (now gone, this was back in 1995) while trying to interest me in accepting some cash from scientology for my silence (the 1st offer) on the subject of $cientology said
"Mr Lerma, Scientology has friends in high places"
For more about this see my reply to this thread on OCMB chatboard titled:
Is the United states Government the Guilty Party? LINK
what a long strange trip this has been....
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON
Arnie, with all due respect, I'm failing to see the connection between a high powered attorney telling you in 1995 that "Scientology has friends in high places" and clandestine federal government involvement with Hubbard/Scientology in the 1950s. The attorney's statement is vague and could relate to Clinton's Hollywood connections back in 95. It could have been a ploy by the attorney to get you to settle; it could have meant ANYTHING.
I do believe the connection with the Federal Government in the 50s-60s is plausible as I have some direct knowledge of connections with the CIA and Psychiatry around this time. But please remember that most declassification happens after 25 years (if it has historical value under FOI) and not only is it extremely hard to keep a secret in the government for many years, the conspiracy nutjobs would love to sell a book so this isn't a 'magic bullet' (as they say). I find it highly unlikely that a federal agency would spend decades spending money keeping a connection with a bunch of crazy cult followers quiet (or putting pressure on whistle blowers). I don't buy it. If I'm missing something here, please let me know, but bringing in a CIA-years-long-government-conspiracy on top of everything else related to this cult seems pointless and distracting.
I actually wish for your assessment to be correct. However, for this researcher, the tenuous record that exists on the ground, added to the matching overlay of shadows left from 60 years and more ago begs the question... Why is an abomination such as $cientology tolerated at all. Pondering that brings more questions....
And I am aware that President Bill Clinton's scientologist roomate in college certainly does know whether he inhaled that marijuana or not.
The question becomes one of what came first? Hubbard claims that he created Dianetics and Scientology, of course Mr Hubbard also claims to have "Almost been hit by a freight train on venus".... Mr Hubbard claims to be the "source" - based on Mr Hubbard's propensity to LIE, about most things, and his established record taing credit for that which was not his own creation, from his own "Technical Bulletins" LINK to his supposed "ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY" as claimed by a corporation named "RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CORPORATION" (NOTS/NEDS was written by Mr David Mayo) it would not be mere conspiracy kookery to believe he lied about being "source" . IF not Hubbard then the material was crafted by others and merely rewritten by Hubbard. Did Hubbard manage to cobble this together himself from previous art -or- was this done elsewhere by minds far smarter than Mr Hubbard?
It is not a matter of speculation, except amongst OSA and others manifesting symptoms of "denial" that Scientology's countenance is uncomfortably similar to the Nazis.
"Justice Latey said that the tactics used by Hubbard and his helpers are "grimly reminiscent of the ranting and bullying of Hitler and his henchmen." Some Anons while demonstrating lately have even noted this in their reports on this site. LINK
Chris Owen, who was later Knighted by the Queen, compiled THIS REPORT webbed at Andreas' Xenu.net titled "Scientology's Secret Service"
Ex Member Jon Atack wrote "
Dusty Sklar (author and Beasts, Nazis and the Occult) has said that had she known about Hubbard she would have used him in the last chapter of The Nazis and the Occult (1) rather than Sun Myung Moon. L. Ron, junior, was sure that the teachings of the Germanen Orden and the Thule Society had passed directly to his father by courier. In this light, the white circle on a red square of Scientology's International Management Organization can be readily compared to the Nazi flag. The four lightning flashes or "sig runes" are also common to Nazism. No explanation is given for these sig runes by Scientology. They also appear on the RTC symbol. At the time that both of these symbols were introduced, Hubbard also created the International Finance Police, headed by the International Finance Dictator. An unusual choice of words.From Hubbard and the Occult
And perhaps I am in denial, as I have difficulty accepting that Hubbard was smart enough to fool me.
The collective efforts of once hundreds of people - deconstructing Scientology were webbed in the 90's, now, literally thousands of anons are digging into this subject... and all of it created by one man?
So which is it, we are called upon to believe that a dead-beat-dad, hack science fiction writer created something that has literally fooled millions of people, while now affecting the conduct of Presidents?
Or, the alternative, that Hubbard was spoon fed this data, and materials, and after rewrites, passed it off as his own. This is called, in intelligence, "a cut-out" and granted Hubbard was a terrific front man for the operation.
Now, if spoon fed and programmed, this begs the questions whose "ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY" was this to begin with. I find it easier to believe that the structure and operation of scientology is based upon and the same "tech", that was behind the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich of Germany. They are one and the same, updated and now cloaked in bogus religiosity in order escape scruitiny and in an effort to avoid fraud convictions. So imagine if the fledging Nationalist Socialists had had built in financing (donations for auditing) and had the protection of being classed as a non-profit charitable operation - there you have what we face today.
This is the transcript of a secret briefing which L. Ron Hubbard gave to a small group of key aides who held senior positions in Bureau 1 (the Information / Intelligence Bureau) of the Guardian Office... LRH: "When Hitler came to power he came to power because of the files of the original German espionage group. Furthermore, the German, the German Intelligence Organization at the end of World War II was run by a General Gehlen, G-E-H-L-E-N, and General Gehlen when he saw they were losing simply buried all his papers, files and everything"
And in Ghelen's own autobiography I found that he describes this event.
L Ron Hubbard Jr claimed " that the teachings of the Germanen Orden and the Thule Society had passed directly to his father by courier"
Note well: The Germanen Orden evolved into the Nationalist Socialist party
Which is why I am so grateful for the past head of OSA's intelligence agency's revelations, at whatever speed they are made available, which appears to be slower than many desire. Perhaps this provides an opportunity to not merely be critical of the speed or lack thereof of these revelations but provides time for us to fully digest the related materials to really see the big picture, to put it all into proper context, which allows a window of possibility to learn and then know what we must do to deal with it once and for all.
In 1997 I asked Ms Cooper "Why did you dare to write "The scandal of Scientology", she said ".....because I recognized in scientology the same spectre that killed my parents"
Arnie, I appreciate the time you spent with the above post. Really, I do. But I'm not buying it.
I will state that you make a good argument for the following:
1. Hubbard was a known liar. Hubbard stole a lot of material he claimed was his original brainchild. Exactly which writing/who originally wrote it is a topic for another conversation. He stole from many and from what I've read he dabbled in psychotherapy so chances are good that the writings he read (stole from) are the same writings that the government used (probably by hiring the scientists that wrote it) in the 50s-60s era.
2. There are similarities between the structure of Scientology and the structure of post Wiemar Republic German National Socialism (Nazis), but there are stronger similarities between Neo-Nazis and the historical German Nazi group. Any totalitarian political/economical collective has similarities. Hitler, like Hubbard, stole a lot of symbolism from history and other cultures. Hubbard was a twacked out nutjob, like Hitler (who did amphetamines, like Hubbard), so they both had a lot of awake time to develop incoherent policies.
3. Scientology has an advanced Intelligence organization. This is a well known fact. Most totalitarian groups have some type of intelligence and record keeping, including the Mormons and Scientologists.
4. Scientology was created by a drug addled, crazy person with the 'support' of thousands. I don't know if you've ever been around someone who does a lot of amphetamines but they spend hours and hours thinking of ways to control things because they think they have super powers. I've spent time with some, including one person who thought he could control the 'walk'-'don't walk' signs at one particular intersection. He crossed the same intersection for about five hours until someone in a nearby business finally called the police. He was convinced that he could control the signals with his mind if he focused hard enough. Sound familiar???
5. There may be connections in stealing philosophies or even symbols. That is very plausible.
What I don't get is the actual connection of the federal government in all of this. It is possible that the Feds (i.e. IRS, FDA) looked the other way for decades out of lawsuit fear but I don't see the connection that they had a hand in anything outside of the local courts/law enforcement. Most often humans don't like to think that something so simple can pull the wool over their eyes so we have a tendency to create conspiracy theories. Sometimes it really just is a lone killer with three shots.
tl;dr - where's the actual causation/evidence that the American Federal Government spent resources (and was able to keep a sekrit for sixty years) on keeping a crazy cult crazy?? Walls of text don't mean that the moon landing happened in a studio. Where are the dox?
The SP is JM. She pulled all of this in.
You guize need to leave Marty alone. He is a PERFECT, SHINING example of Homer Novis! For all the (normal) world to see!
A similar op targeted Chuck Beatty, with dox dated February 21, 2006, according to disclosures on Rathbun's blog of January 6, 2011.
One common element may be that Beatty was also a source quoted in the WaPo article concerning CST dated November 27, 2005.
Chuck himself, revealed this years ago on the ARS newsgroup.. it's old news, except to Marty who wants to take credit for the "disclosure".
It is not possible for someone who never had a conscience to recover or develop one.
well... I admitted in my OP that all I have are shadows.. and sources who cannot be quoted.. however, when one looks at Hubbard's own college grades it makes one wonder.. IF this was the best Mr Hubbard could do:
For the year 1930-1931, the first semester.
General Chemistry 3/4 D
Mechanical Engineering 3/4 B
Analytical Geometry F
Physical Education C
First Year German E
Civil Engineering B
For the year 1930-1931, the second semester.
English 112 Rhetoric B
General Chemistry 3/4 D
Mechanical Engineering C
Physical Education A
First Year German * F
Differental Calculus F
For the year 1931-1932, the first semester.
Physics, dynamics of sound and light E
Differential Calculus D
Integral Calculus Plane Anal. Geometry
English, short stories B
For the year 1931-1932, the second semester.
Integral Calculus D
English, Short Stories B
Physics, electricity and magnetism D
Nuclear Physics F
Hubbards grade average was 2.28, or a "D" average.LINK
How could such an intellect possibly be the true architect of a moneygrubbing scam of such complexity, that it takes years for a mind to recover?
Yes yes he stole from others, but even so... I find it impossible to believe that the Hubbard described above could have been capable of crafting such an elaborate social control system such scientology, which could be described as having three parts...
Part ONE: The false claims and techniques used to recruit a flow of "raw meat" (as they are called in $cientology by scientology policy...)
Part 2 - Lies, deceptions and techniques used to extend the time it takes for the victim to realize he has been lied to, has been a victim of what is described as an "elaborate fraud".
And finally, an intelligence machine, that had ... up until the event of the Internet, been able to effectively SILENCE those who did discover they had been defrauded.
See Lermanet.com's FRAUD page LINK
This is an elaborate, extremely complicated scam, that defies casual examination, that has been able to achieve somthing that the Nazi party never did... achieve Charitable Status despite a trail of broken lives and dead bodies, a fraud conviction and even criminal charges against leadership with jail time served in the largest domestic spying case in US history!
And when I refer to the US Federal Government, I am referring more to the black budget, behind the scenes secret government, ufos and all.. but docs... sorry..the only answer that makes the fact of scientology even possible is, that the docs are not available because, it is classified. See more outline of the shadows in this posting on xenu.net LINK
British Parliament, 1968:
Mr. St. John-Stevas:
Since the right Hon. Gentleman has reflected on the subject and is noted for his academic brilliance, would he say in one brief, concise sentence, exactly what Scientology is?
Yes, I think I could: it is a fraud.
So this begs the question, who or what group of men were smart enough to craft this scam...
At the risk of a nigh-Godwin, Stalin wasn't exactly much of an intellectual yet he clearly excelled at manipulating people. He grabbed power through a combination of promises and threats and hung on for thirty years.
Miscavige doesn't appear to be one of the world's great thinkers either but he out-manoevred his rivals and is still on top after twenty-five years.
Likewise, organized crime can thrive without requiring the leadership of an evil genius.
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