Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Anonymous, Sep 3, 2011.
Graham Berry know of what he speaks:
I assume this is going to end up moved to the 'other thread', but, since you posted it here, here is where I'll answer.
I couldn't care less about revenge or, for that matter, about 'redemption', especially for Marty and his ilk. They'll have to deal with that themselves. What I do care about is that as a culmination of 50 years of effort and sacrifice by thousands, we are at a point where an actual criminal prosecution of the 'Church' as an *organization* is a distinct possibility.
If we allow that pressure to be defused by yet another fake 'reform' of the 'Church', we're unlikely to have the same opportunity again. Whatever Rathbun has told *you* Graham, he's been quite clear that his own purpose is to preempt any external investigation or prosecution which would almost certainly result in the elimination of the Organization and the seizure of its assets, not to mention the loss of its IRS exemption. (See http://savescientology.com)
Marty (and Mike Rinder) have had 2 years to 'go to the cops' and tell all they know. Despite sly insinuations and vapid hints, there is no reason to think they've actually done so. Or will. And, there is plenty of evidence, based on Rathbun's own statements, to suggest that they never will. Understandably. Lying to the FBI is a crime. One they would be prosecuted for even *without* the long overdue prosecution of the 'Church' under RICO.
I'm impressed with the charade they've been running; it's historical in its breadth and success, but, it's just a charade.
The removal of DM will not make all the impending lawsuits go away. Nor will it affect the cult's dwindling status in the First World. (Like Amway, they prolly doin fine in Taiwan)
It won't make people reach for Scientology. DM is gone, but the drech is still locked in the 50s, and an increasingly informed general public does not want.
Marty won't be able to resuscitate NARCONON. Once the con and dangerous quackery is downed in Quebec, it will be open season everywhere.
Taking over Scientology, Inc. is about as attractive as being given the helm of the Freewinds just after it rips the hull open on a reef and floods the engine room and all the bilge pumps shut down.
Ursula's motivation isn't that, but she has to be painfully aware that it's the belief system of LRH that put Scientology on the road map of controversy & Germany responded. The people in Germany are cognizant of their history under Hitler's regime. The premise is no different than attacking the dictator Adolf Hitler & his crimes, and giving a free pass to those that believe in Nazi ideology & want to practice it.
Ursula & the German government walks a fine line. Allow people to follow their beliefs (even if said beliefs calls for an overthrow of the government & society to turn it into one controlled by Scientology) and taking actions that put those beliefs into action. How is the German government going to say they respect a Scilon's right to believe in LRH & the tech, when the underlying motive is to overthrow & dominate the world.. in the same respect that Hitler was determined to do?
Nice to see Ursula keeping up with the times & speaking out; it sucks that I live in a nation that allows Scientology to walk all over it & it's people under the pseudo guise of religious freedom.
Living well is the best revenge.
Forgive your enemies. Nothing irritates them so much.
Marty doesn't care about NARCONON he doesn't care right now about recruiting any new rawmeat. He wants power and money. And he can get that from the left over dregs of scientology.
I'm inclined to agree with you, although I will point out that I never suggested it was her motivation. I stated she now has a chip in the diplomacy game that Co$ has been playing against Germany via the U.S. State Department.
I also said that it was a win. I was right.
Aye, that question has been discussed intensely. It's a matter of fact that Hubbards scriptures and demands are anti-constitutional. However, that alone doesn't warrant a ban. Basically the common denominator between all the German state's Interior ministers is: They are anti-constitutional, but they do not actually pose a real threat currently to overthrow the constitution, any claims of being cause over MEST and working postulates are wishful thinking. So, they are not banned because they are a) too few b) mostly unarmed and c) delusional loonies. Plus d) the Constitional Court has even sharper and more demands to uphold bans of associations, parties, clubs etc.
I indeed always have a hard time believing all the shit Moxon is able to pull off the US legal system.
First, Miranda and the Mods (sounds like a 60's pop band), I apologize for posting in this thread as my post will now be another derail, but this is where Graham's post is located and I want to address it here. I'd move the whole thing to the other thread myself, but I don't have the powah, man.
"He is on an evolving journey." IMO, that is the only sentence in Graham's post that should concern us. He is on an evolving journey and we don't know where it's going. His past speaks volumes of what type of person he is and it's not good.
There are fairly new people on this anti-sci train ride who may not know any better what Rathbun is known to be guilty of in the past, but there are people who have been in this fight for a long, long time who are sidling up to Rathbun and this is disturbing because Rathbun is on an evolving journey and we don't know where he's headed.
It is upsetting that those of us who do not want to align ourselves with Rathbun are now looked upon as detracting, derailing, OSAbots.
Patience and doing the right thing takes longer, but I do not want to align myself with someone who seems to be going down an evolutionary path that will require us to dismantle his little abusive party at a later date.
I am happy that Ursula has proven what she needed to prove in Germany. But let's not delude ourselves here in the States and believe that this is going to make one bit of a difference here. Our government isn't going to do a damned thing to scientoglogy until every single shred of evidence gleaned from Operation Snow White is no longer viable. There is more than enough evidence against this cult for our government to descend on this abusive and evil cult and yet they don't. Espionage pays off sometimes.
tl;dr: Don't wanna hop a ride on the Rathbun Evolutionary Express.
From my (limited) understanding of the involved parties, what Rathbun is trying is to drive a wedge between scietology the faith/philosophy/moonbatry and scientology the organization. He is doing this for his own ends of course, but he has a common cause with Ursula Caberta. She on her hand suffer from the US foreign service letting itself be used by the cult, accusing her of prosecuting a religion. For her, helping Rathbun is helping her own fight (one I fully support btw). If the two can be successfully separated (faith and organization), it will be a major win, and it will very effectively strip away a lot of the cults protective cloaking.
I don't know what thread this should go in but here goes.
I disagree that there is any real chance of prosecuting the Church as an organization. To prosecute the Church of Scientology in the US would require the FBI treating it like it would organized crime. It is not going to do that without political pressure to do so, which I really don't see happening any time soon.
I also don't believe that Mike and Marty have a magic legal bullet that they could deploy that would spell the end of the CoS. They might be able to damage its tax status, which I agree they seem reluctant to try and do, but even that seems doubtful. The IRS has surrendered that fight and won't take it up again unless someone with the power to do so makes them.
Many of the front groups are more vulnerable, as are the CoS operations in other countries. These are worthwhile efforts.
But the main front of the fight seems to be in the PR arena -- cutting of their ability to recruit and trying to get information to those still in.
In the PR area, Marty provides some ammunition. He could do more, particularly if he was less interested in promoting himself as Martin Luther II, but it is still of use.
That doesn't require trusting Marty or assuming that we have the same goals, but I also don't think it is at all likely to help him take over the Church of Scientology and pretend that it is all better now.
We can, if Marty agrees we're in this together and stops attacking anons, stops censoring posts on his blog by people who may disagree with him, stop playing the victim, and is honest. I still question some of Marty's motives for going to Germany.. to the indies that adore him & follow his every word, he is a hero and a celebrity. To some anons, he's the ex-Scilon exec that is experienced in pulling the wool over people's eyes, a gift that keeps on giving.
We'll have to wait & see in the coming weeks, months, years...
A case could be made that Marty has an alternate business plan: Keep Hubbard's hypno-brainwash going, but charge a small fortune (vs. a large one), don't abuse your clients (duh!), and don't chase 'em down and harass 'em when they leave or take a break. Seems like that's a more sustainable Scientology business plan in the age of the internet. He'll still make a fortune after the inevitable CoS mass-exodus, but won't have the FBI, pissed-off exes and Anons on his ass.
Very instructive opinion of Sid:
Tony Ortega of Village Voice reported about Rathbuns visit to Hamburg.
("First Video from Germany: Ex-Scientology Exec Marty Rathbun On Meeting
with Ursula Caberta" By Tony Ortega Wed., Sep. 7 2011 at 2:06 PM
Out of the many Pro- and Contra-Comments from Scientologists, Rathbun-Fans and Rathbun-Critics, f.e.
Dennis Ehrlich, I think that (Nr 163 I guess) was the most realistic and helpfull. Because I can not link to this special peace, I copied it here:
Sid 18 hours ago
Wow, they're going really crazy over at Marty's website. They're
congratulating him and celebrating and having a wild old party.
Now I'm trying to work out why that is, and the only reason I can think
of is that they genuinely believed that Ursula was some kind of evil SP
out to destroy all Scientologists.
It's like, you know Scientologists have been massively lied to by their
Church, but when it hits you in the face like that it's quite alarming
to see it, and amazing to see their reactions when the truth is revealed.
I could be all cynical, but I'm going to enjoy the moment since it's not
every day you hear Scientologists admit they were wrong about something.
Oh well.....one down, nine hundred and ninety nine lies to go then.
I think there are wins all around from this visit of Marty's:-
1. It's a win for Marty since he has proven, at least to his band of
followers and other Scientology lurkers that there is actually nothing
to fear from the German government. They are just one of the many
organizations around the world (including Anonymous) who are trying to
put ethics in on the Church of Scientology.
2. It's a win for the Germans who can use the visit as proof to any
clueless US state officials that there is no persecution of
Scientologists in Germany, only a desire to put ethics in on the Church
3. It's a win for everyone else who enjoys imagining the fury of one DM
at the sight of all this, and how difficult it will be for him in future
to raise money on the pretext of fighting against the Germans who
clearly don't want a fight, they just want the CoS to stop the abuses.
I would just like to point out to any lurkers that actually nothing in
Germany has changed. Ursula is still Ursula. She offered years ago to
help Mike Rinder if he needed asylum. She would have met Marty two years
ago if Marty had accepted her earlier invitation, but I guess he perhaps
had to choose his moment.
In fact, when Marty said the other day "I have Miscavige right where I
want him" it does make me wonder if he knew that by delaying his visit
to Germany, and waiting until he was being really hounded, it would have
maximum impact. I mean, the Germans can simply send the US government a
video of Marty being harassed by the Squibs and a video of him sat with
Ursula, and ask who's showing religious intolerance! I look forward to
Anne Archer trying to explain THAT one to her political contacts. German
I do think this poses some interesting questions for Marty though. I was
moved to see his apparently genuine remorse over the beatings he gave
his friend Mike Rinder. WHEN is he going to show the same level of
remorse for the persecution he meted out to people like Gerry Armstrong,
or is some persecution ok?
Marty would claim it (without dox) because it gets him alot of attention & publicity. Graham would forward the claim because it supports his cause.
Now, in return, how about Anons showing a some respect for Marty Rathbun's spiritual leader, L. Ron Hubbard, and his religion Scientology?
Yes, some repair of the injustices against Gerry Armstrong by Marty might be a good frist step.
I don't think that Marty or Mike Rinder have the moral fiber to go into their actual repairing of the very real trail of debris left by their destructive acts while executives of the fake religion known as Scientology.
Nah, I would be very, very surprised if Anonymous (or whatever it has morphed into by then) won't keep a watchful eye on Rathbun. Too much bad blood between him and some of the OG for them to just let him go. Should he ever fall back on old bad habits, he'll have all the lovely attention Anon can muster again.
I think Rathbun knows that too.
There is a 'Big Win' for Marteh that I don't think is getting much play; He was actually allowed to preempt the labels 'Independent Field' and 'Free Zone' to 'his side' and thereby annoint himself the 'leader'.
This despite the fact that he's railed against both (the 'independent field' is generally considered 'practices' that are derived from Scientology, such as 'Identics', 'Knowledgism' TR etc.) while the 'Free Zone' includes both the 'Rons Org' people and numerous other 'scientologists' who operate independently.
This is indeed a milestone for him; although, it's only in Germany (so far.) He's even been allowed to use a German Government Hall to convene his own convocation of all the 'indies' and 'zonies' regardless of the fact that he's only got his own nascent 'Independent Scientologists' (not to be confused with the Independent Field, except deliberately.)
It's pretty slick
View attachment bitchpleasee.png
Kinda like getting a couple of thunderstorms from a spent hurricane...however I was referring to the notion that he wishes to take over Scientology, Inc. from the dwarf.
He knows better. There's no mechanism in Scientology for a 'coup'. Davey has the bank books and the lawyers and the connections. it's not like Scientology is its own little banana republic and there can be a 'palace coup' that walks in and deposes him.
Any such effort would be countered by *wog* police. If you read http://savescientology.com you'll see that the plan is to announce an *internal audit*, with Davey at least temporarily 'stepping down' with the option to return if he's found 'innocent'.
(or maybe wait 5 years or so till the hubbub dies down Naturally, Davey will retain the bankbooks and a teletype to keep things from 'going off the rails' )
Oh, unquestionably. Marty, should his movement start expanding in a post CoS world, should get no pass from Anons, OG, or exes, given his history. That's a guy who'll need to keep his nose real, real clean to earn our trust.
How about... NO.
Because, despite his claims that he's against the abuse of the CoS, he still thinks of Scientology as a religion.
Fuck that. Shit is taxable, fuck him if he disagrees.
I see a scenario where, as the mass exodus from the CoS starts (if it hasn't already), Marty's little operation starts expanding. He doesn't "take over" CoS - it shrivels and dies. As Marty won't be able to handle the flow in his funky little cabana in Texas, he'll pick up some new property somewhere and run his show out of there.
I also see other new "Indie" operations springing up to take the pilgrims, and it'll be interesting to see what they are and how Marty reacts.
If the cult collapses, Marty will be in the dock like all the other ronbots when the bodies start getting dug out of the ground.
He'll inherit nothing. Scientology will be the equivalent of Jonestown.
And the great American public will weep and wail and say "how could this have happened?".
I'm sure he could earn my trust. What he could earn is not being added to my secondary target list as organized Scientology goes down.
If that were the case, it wouldn't be an issue for me. Admittedly, until the warehouses full of OSA Op material is in public (court/criminal case) record, I won't be satisfied. But, I'm not that worried about a 'revived' Scientology.
From my point of view the *primary* reason to keep the 'Church' going is to maintain the control over the evidence. Without the 'Church' to continue its obstruction of justice 'pink legs' would begin to turn up.
Yes, it's also about the 'money'; but, they're scraping the bottom of the barrel and there's nothing new coming in. And, they *have* plenty of money.
Sane perps would try to let the crime scene cool down so that they could move to 'Site II' with the cash. But, they *can't*, because to close up shop leaves all kinds of loose ends that will eventually show up and raise questions.
That and, they *are* Scientologists and *do* still believe in 'Clearing The Planet'. Is that insane? Sure. What else is new?
I just want to make it absolutely clear that I don't consider your opinions to be moonbatty. I love what Graham Berry posted, 100%, and I also don't trust Rathbun. Just so you know. It's just a gut instinct, but I don't trust him.
The discussion about that just got beyond the scope of the original thread, which is about specific events and so people need to be able to scan through it relatively easily and find the updates. The larger issue of whether glasnost is appropriate is... a larger issue. It's well worth discussing, or I would have domed the thread.
I am sorry if I offended anyone--we were dealing with a spam attack this morning so I was frantically banning users, deleting spam, and trying to respond to requests to simplify the Hamburg thread. Any missteps were not intentional. Okay that's all.
With today's abilities and personnel CoS would never be able to reach the kind of influence that they once had and that they still profit from. And once CoS in its current form falls, the US government is never ever going to repeat the mistake of associating with those loons. This is why I also think it is important that the statements by Rathbun are used to put public pressure on the US gov's position regarding Scientology and on Clinton etc. This needs to be a huge embarassment with consequences.
My point regarding Rathbun is that if he continues on this path and with these means there isn't going to be much left once he takes over. What's important IMHO is not to loose sight of the original goals of dismantling the cult in its current form. Suppose Rathbun takes over at some point. Then the current situation would in retrospect look like a phase of a power struggle within CoS with collateral damage all around. He just cannot possibly ever rebuild as much of that power as he is tearing down now. Even if he were to establish another dictatorship he is working to permanently and actively destroy the isolation between Scientologists and the outside world and thus the foundation of that strange totalitarian island within democracy. This is good, because while dictatorships like Mubarak's Egypt are horrible and brutal, totalitarian systems like the Soviet Union under Stalin or Germany under Hitler can be hell on earth. For this it doesn't matter whether Rathbun realizes any of this, wants to do it or assesses it correctly. Suppose he doesn't take over. Then it's obviously good as well. In my opinion these are horrible developments for Miscavige as well as for CoS. The only thing that must not happen IMHO with regards to Germany is if the position of the german government turns to "we don't care about the ideology at all, we only care about the activity". If that was the case that would pull the rug from under the monitoring by OPC. The political, totalitarian, anti-democratic ideology in the teachings by Hubbard is fundamental to the legal and moral basis of the observation by the OPCs. It is on this basis that the OPCs have fought in court against Scientology and won. This is why I'm distrustful of any such developments, same as statements by high-ranking politicians about Scientology being basically a mere corporation/scam. There is no reason for the OPC to monitor a corporation/scam and if it's criminal it would be a matter for the police, not for intelligence. BTW, I really liked the intro of the Lanz show, because it reiterated the foundation for the OPC's monitoring activity again. I also think Caberta found a very good balance in the show. The meeting was definitely a good idea and has shown great results so far.
So while it is probably exactly the right approach within the United States to say "This is about conduct, the beliefs are not important", in order to side-step the effects of religious cloaking, this does not necessarily apply to Germany to the same extent. In both countries it's likely the right approach to say "It's not important at all whether it's a religion", even though that may depend on the exact nature of the tax exemption and on the legal basis for US foreign policy support of CoS.
PS, that's also why the silly business about 'outsiders' running the Co$ is so fail. If it was greedy attorneys; Scn would be a liability and they'd just want to get out with the cash. It's *not* a cash cow.
If it was the CIA/Interpol/yadda yadda, well, they'd shut it down and use the gnarly 'Tech' secretly. Why 'take over' something that so obviously stinks like fish?
Too many suspicious deaths over the years for this to not be considered a real possibility. I guess if they ever do raid the Hemet compound and take along a cadaver dog, it will turn something up. probably near this:
Photo courtesy of WBM.
But I also guess that whether or not Marty ends up in the dock depends on when the victims were buried. Was he in the Co$ when Shelly Miscavige went missing?
Sure, it is speculation, but it is grounded in history. Whenever totalitarian cults and regimes are stopped or overthrown, there are always bodies. It chills me to wonder how many people might be buried out there.
Can't speak for everyone Miranda, but, I'm not offended. I do get worried when 'relevant' seems to equate to 'acceptable story', but, how many actual *events* will show up from Germany? Discussion *will* meander.
At least till we get the news and transcript from Marteh's latest convocation of the faithful in German Government Sponsored conference room.
Wherever Scientology is addressed, the 'beliefs' and 'scripture' will be important. Because Scientology Scripture reads like a *handbook* of subversion and criminality. And that's not even counting the huge percentage that's *confidential* and included in 'hat packs' and 'advices' etc.
Even Xenu *is* important, because Xenu is the basis for the excuse that says that Scientology *must* take over the world or all life is doomed.
I have a suspicion that if there are bodies, like lots of them, that they have been cast into concrete and placed inside the deep vault where they keep all the titanium discs of LRH writings.
I am certain the only way to be sure is to enter the deep level vault and melt down all the titanium.
And NOTHING of value would be lost.
And I am perfectly fucking serious. I want every scientologist on the planet to know that all those futureproof discs have been destroyed forever, and that whatever is left of Hubbtard's writing in 50 years will be a few ratty paperback books and a huge amount of Anonymous win.
How hard would it have been for Marty to get in a car and visit Berlin *without* 'Scientology Spais'?
Here's hoping the BKA is monitoring his cellphone.
Unlikely; at best
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