Marty: Time Out for the Tao

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Zhongjianren, Jul 28, 2011.

  1. Herro Member

    Oh really? How many people have they eliminated quietly and without sorrow?
  2. BLiP Member

    I'm seeking to demonstrate that The Tao is as far, far removed from Scientology and that Marty's quoting of it is disingenuous.
  3. Herro Member

    That's legit.
  4. Anonymous Member

    To be fair, in China they can be pretty muddled together at this point, along with Confucianism.
  5. BLiP Member

    You have no idea how important your opinion is to me.
  6. Herro Member

    I'm just trying to help you embarrass yourself less frequently. It's love BLiP, it's always love.
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  7. Caliwog Member

    Plenty - Marty moderates comments and ensures that those who would "spread entheta" (i.e. write anything that puts paid to his lies about Hubbard) doesn't get seen by the customers. I mean the flock.

    And let's not forget what posts Marty and Mike held while they were employed by the Church. Marty was in a position to know what was going on with Lisa McPherson. He did nothing to save her, shredded documents that would have helped her family's court case, and TO THIS DAY insists that there is nothing wrong with the Introspection Rundown that killed her. He blames her death on Miscavige mis-handling her case. Lisa's blood is on a lot of hands, and Marty's are among them.

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  8. afternon Member

    Hubbard, with all his greed, self-agrandisement and lust for power is the polar opposite of Toaism.
    Toaism is about humility and observing nature, not conflicting it, Hubbard just liked to sound better read than he really was.
  9. Herro Member

    I've had several people here gleefully tell me that they put me on ignore. I've also had a fair number of people ask assorted mods to permaban me for my "subversive" activities. So is it time to strap on the EFG masks and protest their abusive suppression of "entheta?"(And PS, didn't Marty post your comment about how Hubbard is the source of all evil in Scientology? So much for blocking entheta.)

    As for McPhearson, yeah, the introspective rundown killed her. Marty needs to recognize that even though they were trying to help her, they caused her death. Still, how many lethal introspective rundowns has Marty's special club run so far?

    You seem to want to condemn Marty and company for things you think they're going to do. Sure, they might end up doing them at some point in the future, but I prefer to not condemn people for things they haven't actually done.
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  10. Caliwog Member

    Forgive me for being subject to Godwin's law, but Hitler wrote Mein Kampf, and then when he had the power and the opportunity, he put it into practice and started killing non-Aryans with reckless abandon, just like he said he would in his book.

    Marty's plans have been laid out for us too, Herro. He believes 100% in Hubbard's tech (just as Miscavige does). He plans to implement Hubbard's tech (just as Miscavige does). And the true evils of Scientology don't come from the leader, they come from Hubbard's tech.

    I think you are missing one key element of Scientology: The lack of individual thought. Scientology is all about groupthink - or, more specifically, Hubbardthink. You need to understand just how firmly Hubbard is ingrained in Scientologists' heads.

    Marty may not have had a psychotic break on his hands yet. Remember, the recruiting process is designed to filter out people who have a history of proper psychiatric treatment, and severe cases like Lisa McPherson slipping through the net are rare. But if that time ever comes, you can rest assured he'll recommend an Introspection Rundown.

    And how do we know he hasn't done any harm? How do we know he doesn't have customers who are cancer patients, who he is advising to cure their problems with auditing rather than treat with drugs?

    If Marty was starting a new religion, I might say yes, let's wait to see what he actually does. But Marty isn't - he's promoting what he sees as pure Scientology. Marty is not an individual thinker; he's a Hubbard-thinker. Just like Mein Kampf, the plan has been laid out. And since Hubbard is dead, the plan isn't going to change. Scientologists are incredibly predictable.

  11. Caliwog Member

    Read what Marty has written about McPherson. He will never recognize that the Introspection rundown killed her. Why? Because Scientologists believe that Hubbard's tech is never wrong.

    Scientologists believe that if the tech doesn't produce the desired results, the fault is the practitioner - someone didn't apply it properly. They go to the "qual" department for "cramming" to find the word they didn't understand that led them to misinterpret the instructions.

    I assume that because of his job, Marty would have had access to the logs. He would know that the Introspective Rundown was carried out to the letter. And yet Lisa died. Why? Well, you go back on the time track to see what happened earlier. Hubbard teaches that if the wrong process is applied, it can cause problems, including sickness or death. The only reason Lisa could have died under a properly-performed IR was that something was wrong in her case. So if whoever was her case supervisor declared her in an incorrect state, that could have caused her death. Hence Marty blaming Lisa's death on DM mis-stating her condition of clear.

    The rest of us realize that Lisa died because Scientologists locked her in a room and refused to talk to her, and did not take appropriate measures when she refused food and water. We know the IR is complete bullshit and that Hubbard didn't know fuck-all about how to treat any disease, physical or mental. But Scientologists don't see it that way. Marty doesn't see it that way.

    And until he wakes up and leaves the cult of Scientology, he never will.

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  12. I find it helps to think of Marty as an anti-pope. He thinks that the current church leadership is corrupt and doing things wrong but has no real theological issue with it.
  13. Herro Member

    You know, you keep saying this over and over and over. You keep saying that abuses are inevitable. And yet they don't materialize. Where are the abusive practices you keep saying are inevitable? Marty's club is out there right now practicing and using the tech. Where's the abuses?
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  14. Squirrel King Member

    Whenever somebody holds sway over another's mind abuse takes place. Scientology is a brainwashing method.
  15. It's really not much of a group, at this stage. His worst offence is probably taking money to make "real OTs".

    But from the comments on his blog, it's pretty clear that there is minimal tolerance for being insufficiently alligned with Hubbard thinking, including accusations that others might be out-ethics for not feeling a need to defend Hubbard against any criticism.

    They believe in SPs and include Miscavige and his cronies in that category, and Marty certainly believes that virtually any treatment of SPs is okay.

    If he actually opens an org and his followers start moving to where he is we will see what happens.
  16. Caliwog Member

    Herro, you obviously aren't familiar enough with the tech, or you'd understand the abuses that are contained within. I suggest you start reading Hubbard policy. The texts are out there, you just have to do the work.

    Meantime, though, I'll feed the troll.

    First, Marty is telling his followers/customers that he is bringing them "the truth," but he tells lies, and covers his tracks by censoring comments that point out the truth (especially when he blames abuses on DM that are based in LRH tech). Anything that proves him wrong is also likely to get censored. That's an abuse.

    Marty isn't sharing his case files, but if he has customers who are suffering from serious ailments (cancer, anyone?) he'll be counseling them to "solve it with Scientology" rather than seek proper medical care. That's how Scientologists roll. And that's an abuse.

    From his commenters, it appears that some of his customers are bringing their children to him for auditing - something Scientologists use in place of proper mental and medical care. That's an abuse.

    Do you not understand that most of the abuses of Scientology are written into the tech, Herro?

  17. Tourniquet Member

    Obviously (from the cult's standpoint), Lisa had dropped tone (on the tone scale), and was no longer useful to the cult, so they let her die "quietly and without sorrow".

    Does Marty repudiate that vile shit from "Science of Survival"? I'd say definitely not.
    You can't cherry-pick your Scientology... not if you want to be "Standard".
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  18. Anonymous Member

    I find it amusing you have let Scientology define all of Scientology for you and to stereotype the entire religion. For an individual who is supposed to be able to think critically and independently, you seem lack such faculties in favor for bigotry. Freezone Scientology and Independent Scientology might be significantly different in many ways, which you can't disprove cause you keep referring to the Co$-Scientology to define Indies. Its not that simple.

    According to Janet Reitman, Indie's have organized to avoid abuses and from going bankrupt. So it seems an accomplished author has created a significant counter argument to your bigotry, which seeks to invalidate the desire of Indie's to re-define Scientology in a way that better works for them, both in lifestyle and financially.

    Now do you understand that in religions, people often decide what they believe, what they follow, and what they do not? I have a reality check for you, it happens all the time. Its the reason Catholics aren't selling their daughters into slavery. Its the reason modern Jews are not stoning to death their gay children. Its why terrorist organizations who claim to ascribe to Islam are not considered real Muslims by the majority. And its a good sign Scientologists are doing the same. Hint hint, it might be one of many reasons why many are leaving Co$.
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  19. DeathHamster Member

    It's the same with homeopathy and any number of quack "alternative" cures, but we don't ban them--yet.
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  20. Anonymous Member

    Scientology does not work and it actually hurts people.

    Prove otherwise. James Randi'll pay a cool million if you can.
  21. Actually, I think he's only talking about Marty. A lot of FZ / independents are not Hubbard fundamentalists in the same way Marty is. Therefore they are free to disregard odious parts of the "tech".
  22. Caliwog Member

    But that's the nature of Scientology, Anon. That's what makes it such a problem. Haven't you read Keeping Scientology Working series 1?

    They aren't, I can (it's all in LRH's tech), and it is that simple.

    Scientology is about doing *exactly* what LRH said. Period. Ask any active Scientologist, Church-going or independent, and they will tell you that. They will tell you that LRH has mapped out the answers to all problems and situations in life.

    I haven't yet read Janet's book, so I can't comment on what she said. But that's not why Marty says he organized Indies. According to Marty, Indies are doing their thing because David Miscavige and the Church are not delivering Scientology as LRH intended it. The Church's drive for money is a by-product of the LRH admin tech's drive for ever-increasing stats (and hell to pay if they don't rise). But that's another story.

    My point is, you can't learn about the true nature of Scientology from Marty's blog. You can only learn about it from LRH's tech. Which, unfortunately for the Church and Marty, is easily available.

    I have always understood that. In fact, today I was contemplating a blog entry about this very thing. This is the bit you (and many protesters) seem to miss: Scientologists don't do that. Click the above link and read KSW#1. Or, better yet, just ask the ex-Scientoloists who frequent their board.

    Hubbard drummed into his followers' heads that Scientology has to be practiced exactly as written. That's KSW1: Have the correct technology, know it, know that it is correct, teach it correctly, apply it, see that it's applied, hammer out of existence incorrect technology, knock out incorrect application, close the door on incorrect technology.

    Glossary: Correct technology is Scientology, incorrect technology is anything else.

    Until you understand that, you will not understand Marty and Mike and you will not understand the true nature (and horror) of Scientology.

    Call me a bigot all you like, but this isn't bigotry. It's the opinion of someone who spent years immersed in the Scientology lifestyle and understands how Scientologists think and what they do.

    Help me out here, ex-Scios.

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  23. Caliwog Member

    Incidentally, when I quote policy on my blog, whenever possible I use the 1974 volumes, when LRH was large and in charge and David Miscavige was just a boy. So the Scientology I quote is the real un-DM-altered deal.

  24. Herro Member

    If people want to use scientology for mental and physical health, that's their decision. It's a stupid decision, but it's still theirs to make. That's not abuse. The biggest problem with your entire outlook, as the Anon poster pointed out very eloquently, is that all you do is look at the texts- the tech in its literal form. You just don't seem to care at all about what people are actually doing. It doesn't matter whether or not there are actually abuses from your standpoint, all that matters is that you think there will be abuses because of the texts. Texts are always interpreted. It doesn't matter whether LRH said everything has to be followed 100% to the letter of the law. People still have to read it and make sense of it and decide what to take away from it. LRH contradicts himself all over the place so we already know that these texts are actively being interpreted as people have to decide what to make of all the things LRH said. Marty and other independents are out there practicing their different versions and interpretations of the tech, so where are the inevitable abuses? Where is the RPF and the coerced abortions and the seizing of passports ect ect?
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  25. Herro Member

    Well if that's your definition of abuse then any act of one person persuading another or teaching another is abuse. Looks like we better get rid of schools.
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  26. Anonymous Member

  27. Anonymous Member

  28. Anonymous Member

    I like how when we get into hot territory the pejoratives start to fly.
  29. Caliwog Member

    Again, Herro, your ignorance of Scientology shows through. Here's what happens: People try to apply Scientology. It doesn't work, because it's largely bullshit. They don't get the results they want, so they are sent to cramming, and have to repeat courses, all at their own expense. Eventually they bend their mind around it and find a way to make it work. Meanwhile their wallets are lighter, they're keeping a happy face for other Scientologists (they are forbidden from talking about their problems), and they are sucking more people in so that all the orgs can be the size of "Old Saint Hill" and they can get OT9 which will solve their problems. So more people fall for the scam.

    How do you know this? And what alternate versions of "the tech" are there?

    Well, Marty isn't sending people overseas so no need to seize passports. Coerced abortions and the RPF only happen in the Sea Org, so we have to wait till Marty forms his own elite corps. Read Marty's blog - it's not the existence of the RPF he objects to, merely that people are being sent there at DM's whim rather than for the reasons LRH said.

    Meanwhile Marty has come out and said that he believes in disconnection exactly as LRH described it. He has written that believes in the Introspection Rundown as the proper way to treat a psychotic break. He believes in statistics as the only measure of production and presents meaningless stats as proof of progress. He believes it is OK to lie for the purposes of PR. He tells his followers that reading "entheta" is harmful to their health and their case. He pushes the "black and white" "us vs them" mentality of Scientology. And he is working to make his customers/followers feel like an elite group that is different and better than anyone else.

    Get off your lazy butt and start reading some tech, Herro, and you'll see that it took Hubbard longer than 2 years to do all this, so I'd say Marty's moving along at a rather impressive clip.

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  30. Anonymous Member

  31. eddieVroom Member

  32. eddieVroom Member

    I'm a bit suprised that Arthur Koestler's The Ghost in the Machine doesn't get more attention from people who gravitate toward "The Tech".

    Though it is arguably not a "spiritual" text, given how tightly enmeshed we are with monkey brains, I've come to regard it much as Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence.
  33. Herro Member

    I don't know how many different ways I can say it, I don't believe in condemning people for things they haven't done.
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  34. Herro Member

    I don't know who this guy is, but he sure is mad.
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  35. Anonymous Member

    Pick and choose all you like, I would encourage it as a first step to breaking free from the mind fuck, but what ever you end up with is NOT Scientology, as per its own definition.

    Scientology is a religion like no other. You are required to accept all of it, without questions and/or doubt. In fact, doubting any of the tech is, as per scripture, one of the top reasons why it doesn't work. As soon as you depart from KSW, Scientology becomes something else, I'm not sure what it is, but it ain't Standard Tech and any efficacy is, according to L Ron Hubbard, compromised. Why not save some grief and re-brand; call it something else and relaunch your product without the filth and stigma now indelibly ingrained on the UFO cult.
  36. Caliwog Member

    I get that. You're ignoring the fact that Scientologists are trained to think differently, but let's set that aside. What about the things I listed above, that Marty *has* done? Do you think those things are acceptable?

  37. Anonymous Member

    Rid of schools: yes
    Rid of education: no
  38. Anonymous Member

    Thin forensic ice, Herro. This is the line given out by Miscavige.
  39. Herro Member

    I really don't think they're a big deal.
  40. Caliwog Member

    So lying is OK? Disconnection is OK? Telling his followers it's unhealthy to read opposing viewpoints is OK? All good, so long as there are no forced abortions and no crush regging?

    Good to know where you stand, Herro.


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