Marty WITHDRAWS Endorsement of Scientolipedia and David LaCroix. Sneakster Triumphant!

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Anonymous, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Distinctions that are almost imperceptible to Anons are crucially important to corporate Church of Scientology Scientologists, Independent Scientologists, Progressive Scientologists, Freezoners, and Members of Ron's Org. One may not want to ignore the narcissism of small differences.
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  2. ICC

    Responding to this good question:

    "Thanks for answering my question. Do you think people in the Freezone agree with your assessment that they practice an altered form of Scientology?

    As a followup, how can the indies claim to have abandoned abusive practices like disconnection and fair game when they were invented by Hubbard? Are these then not part of the pure Hubbard tech as well? It seems like a contradiction. Not an attack, just a naive question."

    The FreeZone does not, for better or worse, have an autonomous body unlike the Church of Scientology. There are independent groups like Ron's Org, APIS and so forth but each follows its own policy. As far as their materials (or version of the materials) being altered is concerned, that is up to the individual to check and see. In my review of these I have found APIS to be the most accurate/unaltered. In this sense this is the one advantage to the CoS - altered as it may be, it is consistently so (at least for now) with GAT, whereas the independent field is just that, independent and has a lot of things in it. Obviously I don't believe anyone would claim to be squirrel though some people will say upfront that they use other things besides standard tech (some groups are stricter than others, generally APIS but repercussions usually are less severe than in the church other than expulsion which isn't enforced but again the individual getting services needs to do their due diligence). Hope that answers this question, but I advise anyone to look it up for themselves and verify.

    As to the apparent contradiction, there is not one. That is to say, the independent group members (at least in my experience with them) do not deny or try to hide the documents or mistakes of L. Ron Hubbard. This is part of what is different from the church experience.

    That also said disconnect was revoked officially but then put back into use by current management. Furthermore there is no such officially enforced policy in the independent field per my knowledge, as disconnect expressly is for the church and church members, and independents are by definition out of the church.

    As a side note to this controversial item of disconnect, the way I have always understood it as:

    (a) a last ditch option after any as all handlings have been attempted, and

    (b) more importantly a disconnect is based on a consideration that has no basis in objective fact (I.e. An SP), BUT is true in a contextual sense, so one can be an SP to a person, group, etcetera.

    Furthermore to label someone an SP is by definition stating that they are more powerful than you as they are harmful and suppressive to your well being and goals, again which aren't inherent just based on considerations of what should be for the person/group to survive, but you can change these if you desire (not that you should necessarily). So labeling a person an SP isn't necessarily powerful or causative as the terminology goes, but it can be still true (at least in relation to the consideration). Personally it is more powerful to change considerations than label as an SP and disconnect but then you run the risk of becoming the effect of other people and the environment (aka people pleaser, give up on dreams) particularly if someone is trying to hurt you. So if they are it's because you allow it, and that's why disconnect is last ditch as it means you stop allowing it (but hopefully later can handle as you get your life together and become more powerful).

    That said there are certainly people working against your goals & your survival whether intentionally or not, pretty much no matter what you're doing in life. Obviously the ideal would we to handle it and resolve it amicably BUT if you cannot handle it I believe that disconnect would work as a short term method until a person gets themselves stable but not as a long term one. After all, then the ability to communicate with anyone about anything (Grade 0) would be impeded if you had disconnected by choice since you wouldn't be able to communicate with anyone, namely the SP. I would not say that the tech is perfect in this regard (though to be fair I haven't read all the material on SP / PTS courses) but it is effective and workable, which it is meant to be and is not perfect and has room for improvement as long as one doesn't pretend that what they are presenting is Hubbard's technology which is misrepresenting.

    Do I believe there are suppressive people that one should disconnect from and / or isolate from society (with a possibility of rehabilitation)? Yes no question if Hitler and other murderous psychopaths / sociopaths are any example.

    Does the tech of disconnect and SP get abused? Certainly, but that does not mean that it is without value so long as one can identify the context in which it operates and one's considerations.

    Hope this helps answer some questions, and you are not naive for asking a legit question.
  3. anon8109 Member

    Thanks for that explanation ICC but I don't believe it is an accurate interpretation of Hubbard's intention for creating the notion of SP and his implementation of it.

    On the one hand the only examples of SP you describe are violent murderous psychopaths. On the other hand the people that are victims of disconnection are not murderous psychopaths but rather loving family and friends who criticize Hubbard and want the person they love to look at what thousands of victims of scientology have spoken out about.

    Hubbard did not invent the idea of controlling the relationships of cult members, and breaking up relationships that might eventually lead to a person escaping from the cult. Relationship control is one of the central mind-control tools used by cults to keep members away from anyone who might successfully challenge them into looking at information that the cult hides from its members. Facts that contradict the leader's lies can lead victims to wonder what else the leader has been lying about.
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  4. ICC

    Hi Anon8109

    The fact of the matter is neither I not you know Hubbard's true intention - it's all speculation a only he would know. Maybe it was both. One sees what they choose to focus on as well.

    I don't condone all the actions of the church or Hubbard, or every free zone member (which is more of a loose all encompassing term than anything else), but again I believe you are reinforcing my point that it can be and has been abused. If About 2.5% of the population is truly SP (and psychological studies on sociopaths range from 1-4% of the population - with 2.5% being the average interestingly enough) then very few should be labeled as such, which is why the church is abusing the policy since there should be very few people in this category according to theory and findings.

    That said, being a victim is as much as story and not inherently true as is the idea that all criticism of Hubbard and the church is suppressive. I would say though there are also 2 types of criticism - first is the legitimate kind with an intention to improve and correct, the second is just being a dick (and is what is really being addressed on SP writings which I believe you should read in full prior to stating about disconnect).

    Personally I don't find being a victim empowering and realize that there is also more than just their side to their story, the church's story and even the loving family's. All likely have truth and lies in them but I find it funny most outright the church is all wrong and did nothing right whereas a supposed victim has zero responsibility or part in the matter, or the family on that note.

    Going back to intentions I can only guess as much as you can as to the true motives - thought control? Helping people out with a bad relationship condition? Your choice to believe whatever you want. Which one do you find more powerful and useful in life if actually using it as stated?

    Personally if I find it works if actually used in such a way divorced from the church politics including even Hubbard's flaws, and myself haven't ever had to resort to it fortunately and hope I never have to.
  5. ICC

    Ps I should add I wasn't addressing the intention of the free zone members with the writings and tech. I understand that most feel it should be preserved warts and all for a person to view, review, investigate, ask questions about and so forth in its natural form so as to make their own decisions. Obviously the free zone could not do some things in the policies as there is no org, mission and so on, and disconnect can't be enforced even if someone in a Facebook group wants it to be done.
  6. anon8109 Member

    You can infer Hubbard's intentions by comparing the cult he created with other cults. In case you don't like the word "cult" replace it with "high control group" or some other term.

    I don't need to be an expert in the minutiae of Hubbard's writings in order to understand his intentions with regard to labeling people as SP, all I have to do is look at how this policy was used and the effect it has. This policy was used in the exact same way every other cult separates their members from loved ones and isolates them from the outside world with the ultimate goal of having total control over them and leaving them with no means of escape and nowhere to escape to.

    "Victim" is the exact correct word when a crime has been committed against someone. There is nothing wrong with being a victim, and it does not diminish a person's power in any way, unless they themselves allow that to happen. If I get hit by lightning I am a victim, and may need some help in recovering, but it does not diminish my power.
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  7. Bobby McGee Member

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  8. ICC

    Except for living, moving, feeling, effectiveness, etc. What do you say when you mean when you say "power"? It may increase your electrical voltage in which case power would increase!
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  9. anon8109 Member

    I think you enjoy word games ICC.

    Words have multiple meanings, and you are (purposely?) misinterpreting what I wrote by picking meanings that suit your arguments rather than the meaning I intended.
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  10. ICC

    Word games are fun I won't deny that.
    I'm just clarifying the terms used.
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  11. anon8109 Member

    Here's a word for you to look up, "obfuscation".

    You can't clarify the terms I used by picking meanings out of the dictionary that I did not intend. That is the opposite of clarifying.
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  12. Twinkle Member

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  13. Pew, pew pew pew.
  14. Twinkle Member

    Urgent message for NCaverage.

    Go home, get a life and do something useful with it.
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  15. Perhaps some spiritual people in this thread need reminding that spiritual enlightenment is not about labeling others but transcending labels with compassion. Hubbard loved the old theosophist stuff and adapted it almost literally, but aside from dressing up as buddha because that is what theosophist maitreyas are wont to do (just like invoking Cecil Rhodes involves gay frocks), he didn't bother to say much about compassion- or love for that matter.

    Better to be Zen and contemplate nothing than run Ron's case and keep his bloated egregore fed.
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  16. Quentinanon Member

    "they have an agenda to eradicate scientology in all forms from this Earth."
    "done with evil intent"
    "want this viper to remain on your Facebook Friends list"
    Looks like Mike Hobson still believes in some of the worst aspects of scientology.

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  17. thesneakster Member

    All that leaked post shows is that on October 20, 2012 I was pretty damned pissed off with somebody. ;)

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
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  18. Really? So if you were pissed off at ESMB because "they have an agenda to eradicate scientology in all forms from this Earth", WTF are you doing here on WWP?
  19. Don't try to misdirect us, asshole.

    and therefore you are establishing
    you believe at least
    in some of ELCON
    So yes, as Quentin above said,
    you do subscribe to some of the elFatzo "tek".
    Again, do no try to misdirect us
    saying the poster was OSA
    (when you are OSA Indie yourself).

    Seeing through
    your bullshit,
    Independent Anonymous
  20. guess what, Mr IT, you post on the net and it is there forever. you fucked up.
  21. Quentinanon Member

    Clearly you were upset with the guy. However, your post condemning him shows all or nothing thinking, mind reading and jumping to conclusions. Do you need to repeat the mistakes of Hubbard by demonising those who upset you?
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  22. why did you edit your post, hobson?

    Here it is in full:
  23. RolandRB Member

    Very 1.1, A=A=A, held-down-fives thinking!
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  24. still waiting for Hobby to answer ....
  25. Ogsonofgroo Member

    lolol, new chewy posts are chewy and durrrrrr.


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  26. thesneakster Member

    Any mod can confirm that my comment on the edit was "removed personal attack". Why? Because I decided it
    was an Ad Hominem, which is against the WWP rules and unprofessional.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
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  27. White Tara Global Moderator

    Its right underneath the original post 'personal attack removed' thats confirmation. :)
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  28. Tara, how can you fucking lie so easily. Show me where that is!

    This message by TaraLies has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  29. White Tara Global Moderator

    Tough shit babe, sucks to not have mod vision I guess. It says plain as day in Hobsons reason for editing his post 'personal attack removed'

    You unfortunately are just gonna have to take my word on it. :)
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  30. wow tara.
    that was low.
    even for you.
    the poster
    has a point.
    there is
    no reason shown
    for the editing.
    this one
    you lose.
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  31. White Tara Global Moderator

  32. ''I unfriend you, Free-Zone Biatch!''

    Independent Scientologist

    ''LRH worshippers ( Independent and Free-Zone) are out of touch?''
    IDK bout dat. Lulll!
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  33. We don't understand all of this but do want to know more about why David is an evil viper. Can anyone help so that we can add it to our website
    This message by WB777777 has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  34. We don't understand all of this but do want to know more about why David is an evil viper. Can anyone help so that we can add it to our website
    This message by WB777777 has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
    • Dislike Dislike x 3
  35. Quentinanon Member

    Is a site for osa to collect IP addresses?
  36. BLiP Member

    David was falsely blamed for leaking one of Steve Hall's attempts to put ethics into the FreeZone . . .


    . . . Sneaky got his knickers in a twist because the members of Failbook group where this happened were supposed to keep things confidential. As the self-appointed Hall Mintor of the group, Sneaky set off on some sort of string-pulling exercise in order to identify the WHO. If, instead, he had set off the find the WHY first, as per the tech, he would have come to a completely different conclusion as to who the WHO was :)
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  37. RightOn Member

    wait what?
    nutshell plox?
  38. BLiP Member

    Old news - goes back to October 2012 - back in the days when the Indie Dependents were led by Marty and all that jazz. Basically, their strategy was formed sometime in 2009 and largely predicated on the basis that floods of people would leave the cult if there was an alternative KSW Standard Tech Bridge to Xenu™ made available. Fast forward three years and, surprise surprise, it wasn't going quite as well as postulated; there had to be significant CI, right? Among the groups and individuals targeted for handling was the FreeZone which, needless to say, wasn't playing ball. Its members weren't going to be told what to do by a bunch of people viewed as having enabled Miscavige. In a fit of frustration, poor ole Steve tried to reverse the blame and ended up having a bit of a Failbook meltdown. Much lulz were enjoyed by many. Fun times.
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  39. RightOn Member

    ahhhh so Steve doesn't like Zoners or Rons Org (they are doing it wrong)
    I would imagine he is not a fan of OT128? LOL
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