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Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Kha Khan, May 13, 2010.

  1. auchraw Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    I gave up trying to work this out years ago. There must be 30 or 40 separate jurisdictions in Europe, maybe 100 or more, counting all the lander and SSRs, and every one has a different tax law and definitions. In some cases to be a 'church' is not a big thing: anyone can just say they are a church and register. In some countries it is not a big thing to be allowed to perform marriages. Any reputable person can register. But I have seen the cult claim to be a valid religion because they perform marriages. It's meaningless.

    My understanding of the UK setup was that it was limited to charities in former Commonwealth countries. Every European country operates its own tax system and CoS is very clever at finding a niche as one thing or another.

    How does the cult manage in Germany? Do they declare all cash income? VAT? How does it manage now in France when its main activities, as far as I can understand, are illegal?

    I believe changing the law in Australia MIGHT change something in the UK but will not have any effect on the rest of Europe. It might not even affect Scotland since Scotland has a different tax system to England.

    The important one is the American IRS. So long as the alleged church is tax-exempt in the US they will be regarded as bona fide in lots of other places.

    If there is any long-term purpose in collecting information about this someone should set up a wiki.
  2. Rockyj Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    When the cult of $cientology is destroyed it should never be allowed to resurface anything like it is now or when LRH was alive.
    Knowledge is free.
    If Freezoners & Independents believe auditing & tech helps them that’s their problem.
    If Freezoners & Independents believe they need a leader because they don’t have minds of their own that’s their problem.
    If said new leader turns out be anything like LRH & DM
    It will become Anon’s problem, ya…think?
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    [IMG]
  4. RolandRB Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    We need to find out how they manage to operate tax free in each and every European country.

    I imagine that if they get banned in the UK, even for a while, it will start the process of their getting banned in other European countries. By getting "banned" then I mean banned as an entity that charges money for auditing and courses. We want their money to dry up. They can not be destroyed because they can always use the religion argument but then, as a religion, they may not be able to charge for courses and auditing.

    If they are illegal in France but still operating there then this is the first mainland European country to find out how they operate there. Do they send their chumps to Belgium for the Purif? What about auditing? Is the money again going to Belgium but the work done in France. We need to find out on a case by case basis.

    Although they will remain as a bona-fide religion in the US, it only takes one European country to ban them for the effect to snowball in Europe and the US status to be ignored.
  5. themadhair Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Or rather YOU need to find out.
  6. RolandRB Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    I imagine the knowledge is already out there through ex-members in each country.
  7. Scintellanon Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Good convo. It's sketchy for many to understand this, (me included.) Definitely something needed to be easier to understand.

    Scientology as a business - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The German government takes the view that Scientology is a commercial enterprise, and Belgium, France, United Kingdom, Ireland, Luxembourg, Israel and Mexico remain unconvinced that Scientology is a religion.

    ---

    (Country)(commercial enterprise or business)(entity establishing)

    However, in regard to the US, one interesting thing I found is that unlike the organizations charitable establishment, the e-meter was not considered religious 'artifact' as deemed through the US Customs and Border Patrol, (CBP) because the E-Meter 'sits on a desk.' For that matter it is like a device in a business atmosphere.

    Webbed that situation and cult lawyer attempt to have it exempted from(Ad Valorem) taxation as imported from Taiwan - here:

    Scientology, E-Meter Classification and the Ad Valorem Tax - "THE E-METER SITS ON A DESK"

    In 2006, legal counsel for $cientology protested the current import classification of the E-Meter and failed in its attempt to reclassify as, 'religious.' Therefore, the exemption from the Ad Valorem Tax was denied.

    The Ad Valorem may be similar to the VAT tax in the UK but not sure.

    ---

    btw, Marty won't be talking about these things will he? From which legal establishment will he be speaking from?
  8. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    According to this website Scientology in Deutschland nicht von der Steuer befreit the situation in Germany is as follows: The license fees that go to the US are tax exempt since 2003, but nothing else. To be precise, the US organizations receiving these license fees from the german organizations are free from taxation in Germany because they are tax exempt in the US if I interpret this website correctly. The reason for this exemption apparently lies in a bilateral agreement between Germany and the United States about "double taxation" or something similar. Both states apparently had different interpretations and it looks like a court decided that because the organization in question resided in the USA that the US interpretation of the treaty was binding in this case. But this only applies to 10% or so consisting of license fees, the rest is taxed. Scientology in Germany is a number of separate associations and the page also states that the possibility cannot be precluded that some of those associations are considered tax exempt by the regional tax authorities. But in general Scientology isn't tax exempt in Germany, except for the license fees.

    At the end of this page there is also a translation of an article from a newspaper from the Netherlands which suggests that Scientology isn't tax exempt there either. It doesn't say anything about license fees.
  9. Random guy Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Nah, European countries are about as happy with leaderfagging as Anonymous. Regarding religion and related questions like abortion, there's deap seated distrust between the predominately Northern Europe and the Catholic Souther Europa. Thus any EU proposal to harmonize laws in those areas have been cut down by all sides as soon as they have seen the light of day. How Austria handles scientology has no bearing on what Britain does.

    In addition, quite a few European countries are not EU members.
  10. RolandRB Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    That's interesting. We have to keep in mind that nearly all the money goes uplines so every organisation in Europe will be making a loss, even though they might be "for profit" organisations. So they won't be taxed on company profits as there won't be any. But I am wondering if German parishioners have to pay VAT on their courses and auditing. Also if they have to pay the staff a minimum wage due to their being a for-profit organisation rather than a charity. I live in Germany now but I have no connections with the church of scientology there or any of its ex-members.
  11. TrevAnon Member

  12. Scintellanon Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    The word services is a loaded word in scientology.

    Regarding protesting, the word, 'services' comes up in protesting all over, as far as the setback lines that we have been asked to recess to by law enforcement. 300 feet has come up repeatedly.

    As a part of their services, they use the authority of their establishment to have law enforcement reinforce the protection of their 'services.' One way they undemocratically use their freedom of
    (not speech). The other way to view this as a business that has protected itself from allegations of fraud, etc.
  13. TrevAnon Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    See also http://manus.itk.ppke.hu/confpubl.pdf page 73.

  14. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    That argument only applies though if they report that to the tax authorities. Does all the money go uplines officially as well? Don't they want to appear independent, at least on paper? Don't they use couriers to transport money uplines? Wasn't there this Alex guy who worked in the Berlin org who transported money to Denmark or was that something else.

    I don't know, but would think so.

    I don't know for sure, but I think the contracts are such that staff members aren't real employees, but rather volunteers who receive a bit of money. But I'm basically guessing here.
  15. RolandRB Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    The way the money goes uplines is largely through the training they give the executives. They go to the higher orgs like Flag to be trained and as a result the lower orgs owe the higher orgs huge amounts of money for this training and so because of that they can never make a profit. If they ever look like becoming profit making then more executives get trained and so the more the orgs owe. So even if they had their status changed to "for profit" they would not actually make a profit and therefore have no capital gains tax or corporate tax to pay in that country. Where it becomes more of a problem to them is if loss of charitable status and becoming a for-profit company means they have to charge VAT. That must hurt a lot. As for not paying staff minimum wage then I think it is illegal for a company to pay less than minimum wage using the excuse that they are training the person as a way of rewarding them and so they are entitled to pay less than minimum wage. I don't know if they can still be "volunteers" for a for-profit company, though. Maybe this is allowed for for-profit religious organisations.

    VAT and minimum wage would screw them if both applied. I am wondering if St. Hill UK benefits from not being obliged to charge VAT. I know a lot of people who were there when I was there were from mainland Europe. Perhaps they were there for VAT reasons.
  16. eddieVroom Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Which is more likely:

    1.) Marty and DM got together very early in the game, Miscavige admitted he'd screwed the pooch, and together they cooked up a plan to "save" Scientology by staging a breakout sect and hostile takeover attempt on DM's seat, which he's already agreed should be vacated by himself. The groundwork for this scheme was being laid as far back as when Miscavige started releasing squirreled LRH works.

    2.) Marty is still a bit brainwashed, and is acting out a Savior fantasy.

    edit: I vote STAY ON TARGET. If, somewhere along the way, that proves a mistake where Marty is concerned, I believe that we can deal with it at the time.
  17. anon4eva Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    LOL> "spiritual nerds"...sitting around holding cans, asking each other questions!
    that is funny shit.
  18. AnonKat Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    sounds like internet geeks oh wait...nvmd
  19. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    I have NEVER trusted Marty Rathbun, and I still don't.

    Mike Rinder is now in the same category for me.

    Period.
  20. eddieVroom Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Consider the world of the 1950s - radio existed, teevee was new and pricy, movies were theater-only, beyond that bowling, billiards and pinball I suppose, but nobody was likely to have any of those things at home. That leaves crossword and jigsaw puzzles, early board games. IOW, Boring.

    So damn boring that even Ouija was a "popular" game back then.

    Though I cannot recall the exact source, Hubbard did say that he was banking on the Fad Phenomenon (in the context of Fifties Consumerism) to bring people into the Dianetics Centers. He understood that something could simply become the new kewlness and go on from there. This year's Ouija board.

    The seemingly obvious solution to Scientology would then be for it to become unpopular as swiftly and mysteriously as it caught on. I believe that Inoculation efforts to date have done very well toward this goal.

    We are left with Insiders and True Believers, the people already infected. If Marty started to bring in significant Raw Meat (figure one or two 'tards might go for it - there's one in every crowd), I'd focus a little more Vigilance his way, but am otherwise comfortable that if Scientology is made to have all the marketing appeal of a soft and sticky turd with fangs, we've covered all the potential sects as well.
  21. Random guy Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Mods, could we put all the posts on the financial structure of CoS in a new thread?
  22. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    The Ouija board is a hold-over from Spiritualism, which was a "New Religious Movement" of the 1800s. At its peak, there were 8 million claimed members--without a hierarchy or organization it would be hard to be sure--certainly closer to 8 million than Scientology.

    Maybe the e-meter will be a "popular" game in the 2050s with people who've never heard of Scientology...
  23. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    yeah, i thought this thread was about

    Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry
  24. AnonKat Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Actually he used his freedom of speech to talk to a bunch of politicians and gave his opinion.

    Nothing Illigal.

    Means we just have to be more informing and be better at swaying the politicians.
  25. Scintellanon Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    scientologists play 'the game' every day:

    Secrets of Scientology: The E-Meter
    Schematics for Early E-Meters
    * Lie Detector 1 Lie Detector 2 Do-it-yourself lie detector project: 1941 forerunner of the E-meter (2 pages).
    lie-detector1.jpg

    Volney G. Mathison seemed to depart from e-meter games, to have a real conviction for therapy, strangely. Or so the books have been written....
    [IMG]

    When you think of it, Volney really helped Hubbard start a religion with this prop.

    scientology's future may be better at Milton Bradley (tm), but that's a rather sick joke, (sorry) at this time
  26. eddieVroom Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Oh, Sweet Xenu -- you really believe that?...

  27. grumpus Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    ^
  28. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Lol I love marty, he still pwns chanology six ways from sunday without even trying.
  29. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    At least OUR cans are BEER cans.
  30. AnonKat Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    [IMG]
  31. potrezebie Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    One could make a good arguement for Hubbard's dianetics also being a hold over of the fad science diet of the turn of the century. Purif and all the fretting as to 'purity' is the kissing cousin of the milk diet, or the starvation purge diet (it wasn't called that, but several well-known cases of enforced starvation occurred in certain sanitariums...you can never be too pure, so they say...) or the endless clysters of Jethro Kloss. People were cut off from the outside world in those places and prevented from leaving even after their 'energised enthusiasm' wore out.

    A bit of Fox Sisters, a bit of Crowley, a bit of Dr. Kellogg, cha,cha,cha...
  32. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

  33. Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Finally a Marty thread has been hijacked instead of the other way around. The dawn of a new era?
  34. AnonKat Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    [IMG]
  35. Fluoxetino Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    To me he is a useless bag of gas until he makes reparations (monetary, civil, and criminal) to those he harmed. The minute he admits to all every illegal act he performed and turns himself into the hands of American Legal Justice then he is of use to us.

    Until he fesses up and pays his debt to society, he is useless to us and is not to be trusted.

    I don't care what anyone else says. He's an asshole that doesn't want to face those he's harmed.
  36. OTBT Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Yeah, standard scientology employment contract for Class V Org staff and Mission claims that staff are exempt from Minimum Wage and Overtime.

    1996 Class V Org and Mission staff contract (this is the current contract, as far as I know)

    http://www.exposescientology.com/contracts/cos-staff-contract-1996.pdf

    ==========================================================

    Narconon Dox, leaked a few weeks ago. 15 MB download.

    Narconon Dox.pdf

    Contents:

    1. ABLE INT ED 286, Use & approval on ABLE trademarks on the internet, 9 Aug 99
    2. Application & release to be a Narconon staff member
    3. Narconon INT ED 1103, Narconon Center Allocation Form (2004)
    4. Narconon INT, Definition sheet for Narconon stats cable, 12 Dec 95
    5. Definition of telex abbreviations
    6. NN Int ED 507, Narconon center ED weekly reports, 29 Mar 96
    7. NN INT ED 505R, Narconon staff qualifications, 19 Apr 99
    8. ABLE INT ED 437, Social betterment group licensee & staff qualifications, 12 Feb 03
    9. NN INT ED 38, Narconon enrollment policy, 9 Nov 93

    From the scan of the Narconon Staff Member Contract (Item 2 above):


  37. Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    ^^^at the end of the day, that is the truth.

    Although that is true for 80% of the exes i have seen except maybe aaron, Jason B, JA, and a few others.

    I find it hard coping with the pot calling the kettle black.
  38. One0fMany Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    ^^^ I think this would be good enough, but I don't believe Marty respects us enough as potential adversaries for any of our efforts to have any affect on his actions.

    Maybe we should fix that.

    I'll be honest and say that I don't believe that Marty is on the same page that we are. I don't even think he's reading the same fucking book.

    Marty still believes in his OT superpowerz. You can see it on his face, and you hear it when he talks. He's tech top to bottom. And I don't care how finely crafted it can possibly be made, anything built out of shit is still shit. So the second it was mentioned that perhaps Marty is involved in a bit of a coup d'état, my thought was "Yeah, I could see that."

    In reality, I don't believe that Marty is all that different from Misgarbage. That doesn't mean he isn't useful, though. Fighting a war on one front can be challenging enough when you don't own the battlefield (and $cientology doesn't). Fighting a war on a battlefield you don't own on several fronts is not a good position to be in. So every front Slappy has to worry about is benefit to us.

    Marty's problem is that he doesn't know which side his bread is buttered on. He carries a lot of weight as a psuedo-ex and former super-minion, but would anyone even give a fuck about what he's saying if more than 9000 people hadn't shown up one day, across the world, to protest?

    TL;DR: I don't trust Marty as far as DM can throw him, but anything that gives Slappy some butthurt works in our favor.
  39. One0fMany Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Does this or does this not look exactly like the e-meter that Agent did an autopsy on?

    Minus the soup cans.

    Edit: Yeah, maybe a slight difference in the case and a few more knobs I guess.
  40. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Video footage of Marty upon reading this thread:

    YouTube - trolololol

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