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~Narconon Materials~

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Plups, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. Plups Member

    ~Narconon Materials~

    Hi all. Just wondering if the Narconon materials (staff and client manuals) have been made public.

    I'm really hoping someone could point me to a link where scans of the manuals are located. (I can dream.)

    Thanks in anticipation.
  2. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Pooks might know?
  3. ravenanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    I'd love to see this as well.
  4. Plups Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Thanks. I've asked Pooks. She gave me a couple of sites to look at, but I've not found these materials.
  5. Plups Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    So, I found this list of Narconon Materials, copyright in which is held by the Church of Spiritual Technology (aka L. Ron Hubbard Library - more evidence of the link), on Copyrights of Narconon Materials

    I've marked the materials I am MOST interested in seeing in Red.

  6. ravenanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Thank You ! I will dive into these first thing tomorrow.
  7. Plups Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Sorry. It's only a list. There's no diving to be had. So, I'm still asking people to point me in the right direction (or upload to wikileaks).
  8. ravenanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Crap I went to sleep last night dreaming of all the things I would find. This morning I find I can't read the small details.
  9. Optimisticate Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    I've been wondering if there are any science (not scino) anons that can objectively test the sauna/oil/niacin combination theory and get actual hard numbers showing that it not only damages the liver, but causes long term effects that may not be seen for years. Six degrees and all that, does anyone know anyone who can help, or know of an organization that can assist?

    There are many places where you can find complaints against narCONon. Maybe some of the victims would be willing to share the documents they received?

    Another thought (sorry, my brain is always in overdrive when I wake up), why haven't we seen any ex-sci's that worked in narCONon somewhere?
  10. Plups Member

  11. basic2basic Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    On the latter their is Pooks.

    Years ago there was a critic who was a pharmacologie prof in Germany.
    If you search ARS with:-

    Cornelius Krasel+purif

    You will find lots of the discussion at the time. Back then ARS had more content and less noise.
  12. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    I'm not sure what you'll find on this line. I've done a couple of purifs, and so has my wife. I know many others who have never had a problem during or after doing it. My 70 year old mother even did it.

    It sound more strenuous than it really is if the precautions are followed.

    I'm not sure it's dangerous unless someone is anemic, or has heart trouble, or blood pressure problems.

    It sure would be nice if they would tell narconon prospects that they are being sold a half program, the other half of which is sold in Orgs. I bet lots of people considering narconon would run the other way if they new it was meant to have them end up in an org.

    none of which probably helps you with what you're trying to do.
  13. shadowchaser Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    I wonder if they have to submit copies to the library of congress? and if so if there are any govanons who can get access?
  14. Dubber Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    The Purification Rundown procedure is laid out in HCOB 6 Feb 1978, which you can get in the HCOB package on Wikileaks.
  15. basic2basic Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Been following ARS for around 10 years. Its hard to tell amidst the noise, but I recall 2-3 cases of liver problems post purif. That probably includes COS I guess.

    The Purif program was written I believe before the extended use of Niacin to lower cholesterol. The problem being apparently "sustained release" Niacin.

    I think that suitable liver tests should be included by a doctor/hospital before doing purif. I don't believe that is being done, COS being a dinosaur
    [ ie verging on extinction]

    I'd guess aenemia would be handled by the intensive vitamin/ mineral regime on doing the purif. Re heart trouble I don't know much. At age 40 I had to have another blood pressure test before being allowed on my second purif. A classic precurser to my current need to medicate for non symptomatic high blood pressure. [decades later]
  16. Plups Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Narconon is specifically for people with a history of drugs and/or alcohol abuse - and therefore possibly with compromised livers. That makes the especially susceptible to the risk of liver damage through niacin.
  17. basic2basic Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Indeed.

    I want Narconon to get its act together and spend the money needed to do it properly.

    In fact COS will take the minor drug problem cases as I understand it. And
    I'm not authoritive here having left for the FZ many moons ago.

    A while back I was asked by a critic if Narconon would accept them in their programme. You may imagine the desparation involved in that!

    I had no idea if they would. Was an " Illegal PC" re COS. [ie no way jose]

    However I discovered that narconon would accept a critic! Further that
    they would lose their licence if they refused people. BIG plus point IMO.

    Seems they take on the really lost. People who don't want to really get
    off drugs. Another plus point. But I have no idea of other drug rehabilitation programs. Or their success.

    I've had a druggie in near family and it created extreme havoc. He found help with martial arts eventually, and many times in mental institutions.
    Canobis psychosis.

    He's now doing a PhD. I believe this is a rare success story.

    Anything that gets people off a debilitating drug habit is damn good.

    Even Narconon.
  18. AnonMSW Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    See other threads regarding "efficacy" of NarCONon... this is a bunch of unsupported claptrap with no demonstrated efficacy. What little exists to support them at all lies in their drug education program results which show that kids left their programs saying the felt more aware of drugs having had to sit through them than they had coming in the door.

    You fellows can sit and chat about your wonderful experiences from the "tech" in the "Freezone" all you like, but it's the unlicensed (and unlicense-able) snake-oil bull excrement you're pushing that makes me less and less willing to say Hubbardism absent the "church" should be allowed.
  19. Plups Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    The point of this thread is to enquire about the whereabouts of copies (ideally online) of the Narconon manuals.

    Let's stay on target, please.
  20. enronanonron Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Sending PM with details.
  21. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    I don't suggest this protest be about truth. That's just my personal game.

    Just in the same way the CoS members statements about "everything is just perfect because Ron was Ron", is stupid, and will turn eyebrows up all over the place and destroy credibility, Anon statements to the effect that there could not ever possibly be anything of value or workability in LRH tech will gain the same reaction from anyone watching without some personal bias.

    The truth often shows up somewhere in the middle.

    My personal experience proves without any doubt in my mind, that the purif had an effect beyond some airy fairy fantasy.

    My wife had a serious medical condition in her early teens, which required lots of operations and drugs to correct. It left her completely unable to have children. She went to all sorts of doctors, fertility clinics, quacks, and what have you, all to no effect. No children in 15 years of trying.

    I got her to do the purif. She reported several discharges of horribly malodorous yellowish, pinkish slime from the area in question, both internal and through the nearby skin. 9 months to the day after her attestation, our first lovely child was born.

    Tell her about snake oil bull excrement.

    Every person I've talked to who did the purif, had old sun burns flash on their skins during the purif. It happened to me too. On my first purif, I had sunburns show up from before that time, and I can identify them from their shape and date them from that. My second purif had a different, more recent set of sun burns show up. The first had sunburns from when I used to wear muscle shirts in my teens. No less than 10 years before doing the purif. My second easily identifiable sun burn was from a day working in the blistering sun. I had sun screen on my exposed areas, but didn't know there was a tear in my shirt behind my right shoulder. I got a burn through that hole that blistered through several layers of skin. that happened between my 2 purifs, and my partner on the purif noticed the small bright red patch on my shoulder and pointed it out. I immediately knew where it came from.

    I also had grey/brown goo exuded from the skin of my arms, and other weird stuff.

    So no, it's not all subjective.

    I'm not selling anything here. I'm just pointing to use of truth as desirable and steering away from extremes on either side of the fence as being conducive to the establishment of credibility, which may some day come in handy, if it comes down to that.

    There may be stuff I don't know about the purif, but there are also some things I do know about it, including the above.

    Many people are quickly turned off by fanatical points of view pro or con.
  22. Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    You do realize that, medically, chromhidrosis is exceedingly rare and only occurs from some infections or is brought about by *recently* ingesting certain dyes or drugs, or by the external presence of dyes, paints, or chromogenic bacteria, right?
  23. Quote Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    That's not Sunburn, that's niacin flush. It's a result of an overdose of niacin, it causes blood vessels to move closer to the skin or something like that, I don't know exactly what it is, but it makes you feel hot and it reddens the skin.
  24. AnonMSW Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Perhaps the grey brown goo was your brain leaking through the pores of your skin, along with your reason and your critical thinking capacity. Is there another Scientologist in the house who wishes to engage in defense of this pornography of a drug rehabilitation program?

    It's lovely you had a child after your "attestation." Perhaps it was the fact that the two of you had unprotected sexual intercourse for the first time that same night which finally did the trick? "A Miracle," I say. "It's a fuckin miracle!"

    Sorry for the caustic sarcasm, but your continuing protestations succeed for Scientology in the sole proviso that they get my dander up and make me want to sink in my "clever" claws. I shall be glad to review any supportive documentation or data which bear upon the efficacy of NarCONon. I reserve the right to call in biographic-squirrelAnons to review the prior publication history and known points of confluence between the careers of all authors and Scientology interests or agendas.

    Make your "point" with supporting evidence worth more than the cost of the electicity required to preserve it forever on the internet, or be prepared to defend your claims of efficacy in the face of expert testimony which demonstrates, in the best possible of lights, that at a minimum your claims of success are dangerously inflated.

    I'm done responding to opinion offered as fact, especially in support of dogma driven methodologies known largely to fail miserably.
  25. Skeptic1337 Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    That's fine you should go read up on what that niacin did to your liver.

    Also you should find out what dye they used when giving you your niacin and viatamin tablets. Is there some truth there? Sure I've done turkish baths and my favorite part is drinking the vodka right before you jump in the cold pool and licking your skin to taste it.

    The purif as designed if viewed objectively (and not subjectively) is a dangerous exercise concocted by some one with absolutely zero medical background and when it was first put under peer review laughed at. Why do you think it's now a religious practice?

    Go google the studies done after 9/11 where the NYFD union told the CoS to GTFO. Not the propaganda. Their studies showed the control group actually detoxed at the same rate if not better then the purif group with out exposing them to liver damaging levels of niacin.

    EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE APPLYING ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE.

    Perhaps all you needed was a hot sauna. That is not what the purif rundown is.

    FUCK
  26. TheUKRenegade Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Purif is no more a sensible treatment physical illness than trephining was to treat mental illness.

    Overdosing on niacin, spending hour after hour in a sauna (dehydrating you dangerously) and then pushing your body with relentless exercise. Hmmm, good treatment.

    Maybe after that they could drill holes in your head and let out the evil spirits!

    They even admit themselves in their disclaimer

  27. Plups Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Could you provide a link to such a study? I'm interested. Thanks.
  28. enronanonron Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    I was C/Sed to do the Purif THREE TIMES. C/S adjudicated that purif was unflat.

    I currently have liver damage.

    Coincidence?

    Freezoners, you are not my enemy, but you also are not my friend.

    Hubbard was a dangerous lunatic. The 'TECH' does not work, squirreled or not. Any part of the 'tech' that appears to work is simply ripped off from other practices.
  29. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    No offence taken.

    My wife and I had nothing but unprotected sex for years prior to the purif, without so much as a nibble. The only thing that changed between no pregnancy and our first, was the purif. It's hard for me write that off to coincidence. we figured the residual drugs from operations and other treatments being removed was what accounted for the change.

    We've also had annual physicals and have not liver or other medical problems. If niacin caused liver damage, it probably wouldn't be "occasionally". perhaps it CAN cause or contribute in some circumstances.

    And if it was actually dangerous, and demonstrably so, it would have been banned long since, having been around for 30 odd years now.

    But what do I know. I've just done it twice.
  30. enronanonron Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    goldenrodanon,

    I have read your earlier posts, and agree with many things you have written. IMO, you have a level head, and are willing to experience other viewpoints (oh god, am i sounding like a scieno). Not trying to pick a fight or start a flame war.

    I did the purif 3 three times. Each time, I had green goo come out of my pores, but I suspect that was from taking all those little green little tablets, body salts or some such, I forget what they were called.

    Sweating out impurities dates back to ancient Romans. But ancient Romans did not consume toxic levels of niacin.

    Hubbard stole the ancient idea of the beneficial properties of a steam bath, copyrighted it, and claimed scientologists would be immune from the radiation of a nuclear worlds war three if they did the purif.

    Hubbard was a pathological liar, thief and conman.

    To reiterate, ANY and ALL workable so-called 'workable tech' by Hubbard was stolen and altered by Hubbard from other practices.

    Sweating out crap in a sauna can indeed be beneficial. But Hubbard alter-ised this ancient tech, adding unhealthy mega-amounts of vitamins, minerals and (gak) cal-mag.

    Would you be willing to consider that any benefits that you and your wife had from doing the purif were caused by the ancient tech of sweating in a steam bath, despite Hubbard's alter-is of the this tech?

    Sorry for some of the scieno-speak, this crap was drilled into my head so much that it is kinda hard for me to communicate to another ex-scieno without hubbardspeak.

    Hubbard also wrote that radiation was water soluble. Among other claims; see my sig...
  31. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Sure, enronanonron. I'm willing to consider anything. my thing is truth. Whatever eventually percolates to the top as truth, is what I'm down with.

    It's what forced me to leave the church, after giving them every benefit of the doubt, and them proving they were evil lying dickheads, and that everything you said about LRon above is correct.

    for all I know, the purif might be no better than sprinkling blue asbestos on your breakfast cereal, but that's just not my experience.

    And while I could allow for the sauna and exercise alone accounting for the results, that doesn't really ring entirely true for me. What left our skin was not simple coloring or what ever. It smelled so bad, it made me want to puke on the spot. And although I took the same vits and minerals everyday, what exuded from my body changed all the time.

    I also had other things flushed out like this little black object the size and shape of a caraway seed, that was rock hard, that worked it's own way out of a pore on my arm. while sitting in the sauna one day, I scratched an itch, and felt something. It formed a lump, and then just popped out of a pore on my arm. Freaked me right out. I couldn't dent or break it with my fingernails. No idea to this day what that was.

    And to the other respondent who asked if my red flushes could have been due to niacin, no. the niacin flush is extremely distinctive and would not be mistaken for anything else. and besides, the flushes I mentioned were in the shape of T-shirts I hadn't worn in many years. This is a common phenomenon on the purif. It is what it is. Not what anybody wants it to be.

    Again, if claims are made which don't fit with peoples experiences, they will be rejected out of hand. I don't see any use in that.
  32. enronanonron Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    OK, you have me at a disadvantage; I am finishing a lovely bottle of Australian Chiraz. (My doctor advises that I should not drink alcohol, but I do not listen to obvious marcab-psych-enturbulators. I do love Aussie wines.)

    I had a white plasticky lump work its way out of one of my pores on my first purif.

    But I am not convinced it was hubbard-tech that did it. The simple act of sitting in a sauna repeatedly can sweat out crap festering inside the body.

    Backtrack a bit. Hubbard originated the purif supposedly to protect scientologists from the deadly radiation of world war III. Sorry, but radiation is not water soluble as Hubbard claimed.

    Regardless, the purif is designed solely for the first dynamic, handling drug-addled body thetans is reserved for the confidential OT levels. (BTs don't like saunas)

    I had lots and lots of niacin flush, but it was basically entire body, not 'swim suit' sun burn or past life tattoos (verbal tech).

    While I am not attempting to invalidate any wins or gains you or your wife had on the purif, I am suggesting that it was ancient tech that caused any gains, and not hubbard alter-ised tech.

    What is true for you is true for you, and I will not attempt to negate that.

    All I am asking you is to to look further at 'other practices' which KSW Series 1 specifically bans. Look around. Other people have had answers for centuries.

    Bottom line,

    - Hubbard stole any workable tech from others
    - alter-ised and copyrighted it
    - prevented scientologists from looking anywhere except scientology for all answers to life.
  33. enronanonron Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    goldenrodanon.

    Please don't take this the wrong way. This is not meant to berate or invalidate you or or your knowingness.

    All I ask is for you to look around at other tech, not just what Hubbard wrote.

    What is true for you is true for you, and no one should be able to enforce changes on that.

    In my opinion, Hubbard was a not a nice person, who stole workable tech from others and then altered it and claimed it as his own. Then set up a system of starving-dog lawyers to viscously attack anyone who questioned scientology.

    Your reality may be different.

    Please keep looking for the truth, this is a noble objective in life.
  34. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Enronanonron. I don't dispute what you say, and share your view of hubbard. I don't support him. He was a thief, liar, megalomaniac, egomainiac, dictator.

    But he did get a few things right. and I'm not even saying the purif was one of them. I'm just saying that I, and many others I know personally, got something out of it, and I don't personally know anyone who finished it and had a bad result.

    slight history correction: The purif came about as a result of it's predecessor, the Sweat Out program being interminable. Many people I know were on the sweat out for 6 to 9 months without completing. They'd get discouraged and quit before finishing. As I recall, the radiation aspect was a secondary consideration.

    He did put out some stuff on radiation in around 1957, with a book, and a formula which I think was called Dianazene, which included Niacin as well.

    The whole of my point on this thread is that if you tell people something that goes contrary to their experiences, they will reject what you say, and YOU, without further.

    A good example of this is in the thread with Stu receiving that late night phone call. Stu said a couple of things which went outside of the experiences of he Scilon on the phone. one was that bit about the vouchers not being honored by St Hill, and the other was about scilons having to go to the ship for OT 3. Stu recovered nicely by backtracking on those points and making corrections, but had he insisted what he said was correct, the outcome would have been different.

    Of course none of this matters unless you are talking to scilons. If you're promoting to the general public before they get hooked, then they'll take the warnings at face value. But if talking to a scilon, and making remarks that don't fit their experiences, they'll just reaffirm for themselves that you are misinformed, and strengthen their own resolve.

    That's my argument. Not that the purif is great. I don't know anything except the personal effects I noticed. And of course I could be wrong about what caused them.
  35. enronanonron Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    oohhh, nicely said. The sweat out program was before my time, late 80s.

    You are not my enemy.

    Common sense prevails.

    Peace be unto you, and your children (not a joke)

    Please PM me if you have any lingering concerns or arguments, drama is not applicable on Entiurb.
  36. Plups Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Nice conversation, guys. goldenrod, I hear where you're coming from and you're right. We need to be super-accurate when countering Hubbard's tech because people will tend to give highest authority to their own experience.

    Congrats on having a child(ren)!! That's the most awesome aspect of what has been put above.

    I have friends who tried for over 10 years. Eventually, after IVF failed (several times) they fell pregnant through another program "GIFT" (don't ask me the difference). They tried again through gift for several years before falling pregnant again (with twins). They thought they were finished, but she fell pregnant naturally after that. Sometimes these things are sheer luck.
  37. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Thanks Plups. and glad you got my point.

    It wasn't just about this thread. I've noticed the same thing while watching many videos of confrontations between protesting anons, and scilons during chance encounters. If the anon makes a point that is "unreal" to the scilon, they move farther apart, rather than closer together.

    But anon is smart, thinks on it's feet, and learns much faster. = win.
  38. enronanonron Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    goldenrodanon,

    Please accept my apologies if I became offensive last night. You have written some very nice posts, well informed and rational.

    I just tend to get annoyed at stuff written in defense of 'the tech'. Wasn't trying to ARC break you, was just asking you to consider the idea that any possible 'workable' tech by Hubbard was squirreled and unacknowledged from other earlier practices.

    Please feel free to tell me to STFU if this is out of line.
  39. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    No worries enronanon.

    cheers
  40. AnonX Member

    Re: ~Narconon Materials~

    Don't come here with your narconon "wins". We dont give a fuck.

    As a matter of fact Terril , didn't you get banned? Sockpuppet.

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