Obamacare and Health Insurance for Sea Org Workers & Staff

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by failboat, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. failboat Member

    Please merge this if there's already a thread about this somewhere.

    If not, then let's get working on this. It has the potential to drain a lot of CoS resources.

    I'm not a tax or HR guy, so this project needs people who know where & how to obtain relevant dox on personnel numbers for the various CoS entities.

    Thanks in advance.
    • Like Like x 6
  2. Anonymous Member
    The above link is to a United Methodist Church site which discusses this matter.
    They seem to think the determination will be based on the size of the congregation not on the size of the church as a whole. So it is possible that only orgs with more than 50 staff will be affected.
    Another issue that occurs to me is the insurance subsidy for low income people--say Sea-Orgers. I wonder what the possibility is for the CoS to apply for the subsidy on behalf of their Sea Org and somehow profit from the insurance subsidy via fraud.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. TrevAnon Member

    I would guess most orgs are by far smaller than 50 employees which gives COS a way to not provide healthcare. Bigger orgs may be split. Another way out for them would be claiming they don't have any "employees", only volunteers.

    IANAL, and certainly not a US lawyer.
  4. Enturbuleak Member

    • Like Like x 1
  5. Enturbuleak Member

    IIRC, Scientology already has exemption.

    From a document published in the Federal Register on July 1st 2013

    (page 59)

    (page 61)

    Full document here:
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Anonymous Member

    That is great information, but I think there are different issues,
    1) Are members of religious organizations who are exempt required to buy insurance for themselves, or are they exempt using the form, or
    2) Are religious organizations required to provide insurance for their employees.
    In one case the individual obligated and the second case, their church-employer.
  7. Enturbuleak Member

    I'm no expert. but it seems geared toward individuals.

    (page 27 of same link)

    Here's the actual law referred to above, establishing the religious conscience exemption:


    This is the exemption that you're talking about, right?

    Adherents must OPT OUT of the PPACA on an INDIVIDUAL BASIS. Will Scientology ask all of the potentially affected employees to sign away their right to health insurance?

    Scientologists have gone to great lengths in recent years, especially since the death of Lisa McPherson, to say that they tolerate the expertise & authority of Western medicine as it relates to the health of the BODY. There's probably a number of published statements to this effect by Rinder, Davis, and/or Pouw, along with many other officials.

    Scis claim they can heal the mind/psyche/engrams, detoxify, and affect behaviors like addiction.

    They (claim that they) defer when it comes to serious trauma, infectious diseases, and emergency room stuff.

    They may claim to have some woo when it comes to cancers & diseases of the bodily organs - and they may tell acceptable lies when questioned about these specific diseases. IDK. It's been a while since I questioned an in-the-know Scientologist on the subject of general medicine.

    In any case, it has been accepted by a broad public of Scientologists that you should darn well go to the doctor and/or the emergency room for medical assistance when it is needed. There's a thread around here somewhere about a gentleman named Damian K. who was in Sea Org when he was hit and dragged by a vehicle in Griffith Park; he ended up in ICU and a number of Scientologists have donated toward his care.

    If, in 18 months' time, an order comes down for all of Staff and Sea Org to sign the waivers, it may cause a mutiny.

    Here's more on the subject:
    "PPACA does not specifically exclude any religious groups from its provisions"

    Each person that CoS asks to sign a waiver must have a very personal, internal debate about whether the policies of CoS are conveniently mutable, and whether those same policies actually serve to further the survival of the adherents of CoS.

    They're taught that their survival matters. Being asked to sign the waiver would seem to be at odds with that principle.
  9. DeathHamster Member

    They do split the bigger orgs into Day and Foundation orgs, but unless they have separate incorporations for them, that won't help them.
  10. Enturbuleak Member

    As stated earlier, I'm no expert. It would certainly be interesting if Scientology Orgs turn out to be not exempt. But it should be expected that scilon lawyers will try anything to weasel out of complying.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Anonymous Member

  14. Scientology is the world's largest expansively imploding 'religion'.
    • Like Like x 2
  15. RolandRB Member

    Sea Org staff are volunteers and not employees so it does not apply to them. They are indentured volunteers, maybe, but still not staff.
  16. Anonymous Member

    Lurkmoar, faggot.

    You'd have to quit sucking fags, toss the Queen, and become an American yourself, before anyone this side of the pond would tolerate your unhelpful claims about who's an American worker and who isn't.
  17. jensting Member

    Indentured, yes (look at the "freeloader debt") but volunteers? Dunno about that. State of California says it can't look at whether they are slaves because the beneficiary calls itself a "church."
  18. RolandRB Member

    The Church does not pay minimum wage, the volunteers sign away their rights, so you can fuck off with that one. They are independent volunteers, volunteering their time for a charitable cause and the charity concerned is not responsible for their health care expenses.

  19. So essentially they are legal slaves as they are treated as such where is Moses of Scientology when you need him?
  20. Anonymous Member

    DOX or GTFO. I provided dox. YOu didn't. You're the one who should fuck off, sir.
  21. Anonymous Member
    The W-2 form that Sea Org workers have to fill out is an employment form, according to the IRS.

    Now take a look at this thread:

    Once again, lurkmoar, faggot. And provide me with some fucking dox to the contrary if you're going to keep posting your unhelpful bullshit.
  22. RolandRB Member

    Marty is fucking melons at the moment.
  23. Anonymous Member

    C of S changed their years-long party line that the Sea Org are EMPLOYEES.

    Compare this new version with scientology's old version:

    Here's what that paragraph used to say:

    • Like Like x 1
  24. RolandRB Member

    Anybody who thinks the "Church" will be paying for healthcare for their indentured slaves must be smoking something. There is no way that is going to happen before the Earth freezes over. Their slaves are there to be used and abused, not cared for or looked after, for fuck's sake. There is no way in hell that this "Church" is going to pay Obamacare money for any of its "staff".
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Anonymous Member

    You're such an unhelpful faggot that I don't know what to say.

    Of course we know the Church isn't going to want to pay for health care for its workers. I can't believe you think we need to be educated about that. You're such a useless faggot I guess that you think we are all useless faggots and need your brilliant insights about how the Church feels about its members.

    This project is about trying to force the Church to pay those costs under the mandate of Obamacare, whether the Church wants to or not.

    To that end, do you have any proof that the Church's Staff and Sea Org are not workers but are volunteers?

    If not, kindly fuck off.

    If so, please post it.
  26. RolandRB Member

    It says they are volunteers on the Sea Org contract that they sign. They changed it to say "volunteer" a few years back.

    Hell will freeze over before that "Church" will pay for medical care for its slaves. They are there to be abused, not cared for.
  27. When Mike Rinder takes over the church this will no longer be problem as he will fix all this and more
    fan of Mike Rinder
    This message by fan of Mike Rinder has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
    • Dislike Dislike x 3
  28. Anonymous Member

  29. Miscaviges dong doesn't work properly, at least hubbard fathered some children. Hey David 53 and no kids ? Poor second Dynamic buddy, OH GOD HE SQUIRRELED THE SECOND DYNAMIC Remember Anons that Anonymous made a point lol about that !!!
  30. RolandRB Member

    You could be right. I have found the documents and for Sea Org it does not say "volunteer" anywhere in the contract. For staff it does.

    At the bottom of the latest Sea Org contract it says "The Sea Organization is a fraternal Religious and is not a legal entity" so that may be their get-out clause.
  31. Anonymous Member

    • Like Like x 1

    Staff and Sea Org make more money than that. Any lodging or food received in lieu of pay would also count toward this $500 limit.
  33. Here is a tax/HR guy's take on the issue:

    Here's the profile of the guy who made the above comment:
  34. Anonymous Member

    HCOPL of 26 June 1964 - STAFF BONUSES
    OEC Vol. 3, 1976 edition


    An amount of money paid in excess of salary on a six months or yearly basis.

    One week's salary formerly paid at the discretion of the Executive Director at Christmas time and which is
    cancelled by this directive in favour of a larger and different bonus.

    The "net profit" of an organization is the amount an organization makes above its income that is then paid
    out to directors or stockholders as a profit. Net profit forms no part of this directive or its calculations, and
    the general bonus is not paid on the basis of net profit as Saint Hill is not run on a profit basis. Net Profit
    also means taxable profit, which is not part of the plan, being a matter of accountancy.

    At the end of every six months period, those staff members who have been with the organization for one
    year will receive a bonus based on certain percentages of the cash differential of a department or the

    Those heads of departments who are in charge of Production Departments will receive 20% of the cash
    differential for that period, based on weeks, they are or have been the head of that department, providing
    the post was occupied for more than six months and providing that they have been with the organization
    in any capacity a full year and that they remain in any capacity with the organization for a minimum of six
    months after having ceased to be head of that department. A fraction of a six months period, in cases of
    removal as head of department before six months have been served is not then payable as such after
    removal and only for those weeks actually in charge of that department. This applies only to Production
    Departments, not to units.

    The staff member employed in a production department receives his share of 10% of that Department's
    Departmental Cash Differential. In case of a partial period with one department the bonus is paid on the
    basis of weeks of service in that department, the weeks being those actually served and the bonus being
    based generally on the cash differential of those weeks and the number of staff members in that
    department at that time.

    A staff member who is a member of a unit, not a department, receives his or her share of 5% of the
    Organizational Cash Differential for the weeks in the six months employed on a unit, providing the unit
    staff member remains with the organization. Where a staff member is transferred from a unit to a
    Production Department the unit bonus is paid for the weeks on a unit and the Production Department
    bonus is paid for those actual weeks in the Production Department. A unit staff member's share is
    calculated by taking the Organization Cash Differential for any week and dividing it by the number of unit
    staff members on staff at that time.

    To arrive at a weekly departmental Cash Differential for any one department one takes the weeks of that
    month, adds the total cash receipts of the department for that month, subtracts the salaries and bills of
    that departmentand its general share for that month and divides the difference between receipts and
    expenses by 4 or 5 depending on whether the month covered more nearly 4 weeks or 5 weeks, a fact
    which averages.

    The Organization Secretary receives 10% of the Organizational Cash Differential.

    The head of Department One receives no bonus and staff members of Department One are considered
    Unit Members except where they also belong to other departments.

    A full time staff member is one who works a minimum of 40 hours in a week, not including the
    lunch hour. A part time staff member is one who works less than 40 hours a week. A bonus is
    calculated and paid on the basis of a full time staff member. Part time staff members, regardless of what
    part of the 40 hour week worked are counted as half a bonus, and are paid half a bonus. In calculating
    the amount of the bonus part time staff members are used as half a staff member.

    No bonus is paid anyone for weeks he is on vacation or out sick for any part of the week, or weeks in
    which any part of a day was taken off.

    No person may receive a general bonus for two or more departments or a unit and a department share
    for the same week.

    The existence of the bonus in no way deprives management of transferring or dismissing personnel at its
    own discretion.

    All existing bonus or commission arrangements including the Christmas Bonus are cancelled.

    Any liability for Income Tax by reason of general bonus lies entirely with the receiving individual and not
    with the organization and acceptance of a general bonus is accepted only with this condition.

    The organization takes no responsibility for any matters of tax on the bonus and must report it when paid,
    by law.

    No advances on bonus owing will be paid.

    Heads of departments who serve less than 6 months in that capacity will be paid only on the unit staff
    member basis from the percentage he would otherwise receive, and if departing from employ forfeits

    The General Bonus comes under the heading of a gift and is not owed to the employee as it forms no part
    of his work contract. This scheme may be altered or withdrawn at any time by the Organization at its

    If you make more money in a Department or help the organization make money by doing your job or
    promoting better or working harder and help the organization do its work at less cost, then you will receive
    your ample share of that difference. The earning potential of Saint Hill is high.
  35. Enturbuleak Member

    Non-Sea Org Staff contract, section 4 b :

    It is exclusively my responsibility to see to my physical and medical well-being, and under no circumstance
    does the Church or any other Scientology church or organization which espouses, presents, propagates or practices
    the Scientology religion have any responsibility whatsoever in that regard.

    • Like Like x 1
  36. RolandRB Member

    It would be against their religious and holy scriptures to pay for their slaves healthcare because their faith and beliefs dictates that a person becomes ill only if they are PTS. To pay for their healthcare would be to taint and undermine their religious practices. The government will not make them pay for healthcare because of this because the government respects their religious rights.
  37. Anonymous Member

    Scientology proudly proclaims on their own web sites that medical care is provided for Sea Org staff.

    The more I dig around, the more it looks like C of S will not be able to wiggle out of paying for Obamacare for their US staff.

    Q - Are Church staff members kept isolated in a commune, unable to speak to friends or family?

    A - Not at all. Most staff commute to work, much like any other job.

    Members of Scientology’s religious order, the Sea Organization, do live communally in church-provided
    accommodations and their food, clothing and medical costs are paid for. Like any other Church staff,
    they regularly spend time with family and friends. (See: "What is the Sea Organization?")


    On April 2, 2010, the United States District Court granted a motion by the
    Church of Scientology International ("CSI") and Religious Technology Center
    ("RTC") dismissing a claim for alleged violations of federal and state labor laws
    based on the plaintiff’s years of religious service at CSI and RTC.

    In the ruling granting summary judgment dismissing the wage and hour claims,
    Judge Dale Fischer today agreed with the Church of Scientology that the
    members of its religious order, known as the Sea Organization, which is
    comprised of the Church’s most dedicated members, are not subject to labor

    Because the plaintiff chose to join a religious institution under her
    Church’s doctrine, her work was not subject to the payment of wages, the
    Court stated. Judge Fischer specifically found that the plaintiff "was employed
    by a religious institution," that is, Church of Scientology International and
    Religious Technology Center, "was chosen for her position based largely on
    religious criteria," and "performed religious duties and responsibilities." The
    Court stated that like members of other religious orders, the plaintiff was only
    able to hold these positions based on her commitment to Scientology.

    The plaintiff was a member of the Sea Organization from 1991 until 2005.
    During her years in the Sea Organization, the plaintiff held many positions
    within Scientology. Both CSI and RTC are recognized as churches by the IRS.
    The Sea Organization is a religious order for the Scientology religion and is
    composed of the most dedicated Scientologists in the world - individuals who
    have committed their lives to the volunteer service of their religion. The first Sea
    Organization members formulated the one-billion-year pledge to symbolize their
    eternal commitment to the religion, still signed by all members today.

    As volunteers and members of a religious order, Sea Organization members
    work long hours and live communally with housing, meals, uniforms, medical
    and dental care, transport and all expenses associated with their duties
    provided by the Church. They also receive a small allowance to purchase
    personal items, as all of their other expenses are fully covered by the Church.

    "all of their other expenses are fully covered by the Church"

    Scientology "Religious Order" Dox and Rebuttals
    • Like Like x 2
  38. Enturbuleak Member

    The Excel file mentioned can be downloaded here:

    And no, Scientology is not on the list of groups exempt from Social security payroll taxes.
    • Like Like x 3
  39. Anonymous Member

    Ministers are not exempt from Obamacare

    • Like Like x 1

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