Obamacare and Health Insurance for Sea Org Workers & Staff

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by failboat, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Easily understood explanation here, read more at the link:
  2. RolandRB Member

    I've been reading about Obamacare and wondering what the final situation will be and am coming round to the idea that it might fuck over the Co$. If I understand the situation correctly them the US is now effectively a socialist country. The government cares for the people and, of course, tells them what to do or the people face punishment and imprisonment. Or at least it is getting near that state slowly so as not to alarm people. I applaud this as I live in mainland Europe and we are all socialist states here. It seems to me from reading what I have that after a few years then every citizen will be legally required to be part of Obamacare and if not then they will be fined and their employer will be made to pay for it. I can see that in five years time the slave indentured staff at the Orgs will have to have their Obamacare paid for by Scientology and the Sea Org in less than five years. Somebody has to pay for it. If the are "indentured" then they body they are indentured for will have to pay for it.

    And ........

    ... if that happens ........

    .... then it's bye, bye Scientology because with their high ratio of staff to publics they will not be able to afford the Obamacare and they will go bust.

    Having said that, I am surprised the US citizens have allowed their great country to fall into the hands of the socialists and Godless communism.
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  3. DeathHamster Member

    What if they bring in "religious workers" from third-world countries? Are they covered by this?
  4. BigBeard Member

    That leaves Cof$ out. They'll take insurance money from anyone for their so called "Social Betterment" programs like narCONon. In fact it appears they'll even commit fraud to get it.

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  5. Anonymous Member

    Socialism is when the means of production are owned by 'the people'.
    In fascism, the means of production remain private, but the government controls outcomes with laws, rules and regulations.
    By those definitions, I'd call the US a fascist state, not a socialist stat3e, but the distinctions are meaningless. In the US there is a mix of socialist and fascist modes. They are not incompatible. In fact, they are manifestations of the same will to power.

    A few years ago, Obama fired the CEO of GM. That was a fascist, not a socialist, act. But ACA is a socialist act. The common feature is the government makes decisions that belong in the private sphere. IOW, someone gets to impose their will on the rest of us, that is the common feature between socialism and fascism.
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  6. Anonymous Member

    Good question. Will Scientology's foreign Sea Org staff in USA brought in on R-1 Religious Worker Visas be required to be covered by Obamacare? They aren't citizens or Permanent Residents.
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  7. RolandRB Member

    Will it be the case that everybody will have to be covered by Obamacare in the future? I'm thinking 5 to 10 years time. And if that is the case and the cult is still around then somebody has to be paying for that care and it won't be the staff member or Sea Org member because they won't be able to afford it so the "Church" will have to pay for it and that will destroy them.
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  8. genoramix Member

    who needs insurance when you are OT anyway? :p
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  9. Anonymous Member

    Insurance is for downstat PTS DBs.
  10. failboat Member

    Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far.

    Does anyone think it would be a good idea to get a reporter to ask Pat Harney, Karin Pouw, or whomever about this topic?

    I am just curious whether the CoS has a public statement or any plans that they might be coaxed to release regarding this matter. Obamacare must be on their radar, and I'd bet they are planning for it.

    I am sure that former Staff and Sea Org would also be sought for comment for such an article to confirm or undermine any claims the church might make regarding health care for its workers.
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  11. failboat Member

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  12. Enturbuleak Member

    For years, Scientology has claimed that it provides medical care for its Sea Org members.

    But Scientology never mentions anything about providing medical care for its regular non-Sea Org staff. On the contrary, regular staff are simply "volunteers".

    Org and Mission staff contract:

    PLEASE INITIAL_________

    PLEASE INITIAL________
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  13. RolandRB Member

    Sea Org members do have medical cover - unlimited amounts of it......
    .... "feel my finger, thank you!"

    .... "feel my finger, thank you!"

    .... "feel my finger, thank you!"
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  14. failboat Member

    So I am spending my morning doing some research on this.

    PPACA has two major "mandates," the employer mandate and the individual mandate.

    One is for institutions employing more than 50 people, requiring them to provide health insurance (or something like 60% of the cost of minimum required coverage) for their employees. It would help this project to further flesh out the definition of "employee," vs. "volunteer," and to what extent the Fair Labor Standards Act applies to CoS and its employees. I think it's pretty definitive that they are not "volunteers," given the use of employment tax forms and the strict $500 per annum compensation limit for volunteers mentioned earlier in this thread. However, there are definitely exemptions from certain provisions of FLSA that apply to CoS, and I wonder whether these can be explained and examined fully to see whether they will affect CoS under Obamacare or perhaps shield it from the employer mandate.

    The other mandate of PPACA is the individual mandate, which requires individuals to purchase minimum required coverage. This mandate has exemption which an applicant may seek (on an individual basis) if that applicant meets requirements of section 1402(g)(1). According to the snopes link posted earlier,

    This thread linked most recently refers to the text of section 1402(g)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code :

    The text of 1402(g)(1):
    Edit: From
    Scientology was founded in 1952, its members do not make provision for aged/dependent members, and they do accept Social Security benefits. It would be my conclusion that Scientologists (employed by CoS or otherwise) could not apply for exemption from the individual mandate.

    This is regardless of whether the CoS is mandated to provide its workers with health insurance (subsidy) or not.

    Paging tikk and/or muldrake...
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    Their signatures attesting to their "volunteer" status don't mean anything. Volunteers have been defined by federal law in the U.S. AFAICT.
  16. Quentinanon Member

    FRAUD and LIES. A volunteer sets their own hours, does the jobs they want, without threats or duress. That is NOT the case in scientology where a staff member who refuses to work on the org schedule is punished with lower conditions or a committee of evidence.
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  17. Anonymous Member

    What Small Businesses Need to Do for Obamacare Before Oct. 1

    By Karen E. Klein September 03, 2013
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  18. Quentinanon Member

    So, that effectively exempts all missions and most Class IV orgs, but not Sea Org orgs. like ASHO, AOLA, and the Flag Land Base which must comply in one year.

    The health insurance marketplaces created by the Affordable Care Act will open on Oct. 1. Most small employers—those with 50 or fewer full-time employees—are not required to offer health insurance coverage under the Affordable Care Act. Even businesses with more than 50 full-time employees have gotten a one-year reprieve from penalties if they don’t offer insurance. But all companies, regardless of size, are required to notify their employees about the Obamacare marketplaces.
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  19. RolandRB Member

    Can't the Sea Organization simply self-insure its Sea Org staff health care?

  20. Self insured companies are still subject to federal laws. There are some exceptions, but a good portion of self insured employers will be subject to the ACA in Year 3 (if the ACA lasts that long). Self insuring is only a good idea if you have >500 employees, but we all know that the Cult would claim these people are not employees when it serves their needs (which is easily disproved in a court). Being self insured means that you are required to take on all of the financial risk (up to an attachment point, then Stop Loss coverage kicks in), and I would bet that the Cult would rather have their employees die than to pay for their illnesses.

    Also, when you read that "those with 50 or fewer full-time employees-are not required to offer health insurance" this is incorrect. They are required to offer health insurance although the penalty has been postponed for a year. This is how things get very twisted in the media, which is why I can't stand those that throw out the latest Fox News soundbite.

    As for "losing freedom", well I will remind you that every person on American soil is also forced to pay income taxes, which was previously unheard of a century ago. I'm sure the ignorant types threw out the same argument when the 16th Amendment was passed in 1913. The people that claim a loss of freedom are usually the ones that also complain loudly when they have to pay obscene amounts for their medical care, or they are the ones that find excuses to not pay their medical bills, making insurance even more expensive for those of us that pay for it.

    It is not a perfect plan, and quite frankly I have my own grim predictions about the ACA having been in the middle of it for the last 13 months, but it will work for some that need it the most including the self employed, the unemployed, and those that previously couldn't qualify for Medicaid. There are parts to the ACA that most people don't even know about so before the Fox Shitheads come here to attack it, I suggest that they learn more about it first.
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  21. RolandRB Member

    Isn't driving their own staff to free hospitals when they are ill or pregnant or get run over by a van when on their bicycle a form of fraud?

  22. There are two types of fraud - criminal and civil. Civil fraud needs many elements to be established and employs a "benefit of the bargain" rule, and Bad Faith needs to also be established. It becomes a challenge when Scientology claims that these folks are volunteers and not employees because Scientology's duty to the Sea Org is vastly different. Religious exemption from the ACA is not an area where I'm familiar so I've stayed out of this conversation, but again it boils down to the definition of employee and this would have to be brought up in every state in which they have "volunteers".

    Civil fraud is really meant as a restitution to the victim (in this case it would be the state) but also realize that when you defraud the State then this falls under other laws such as the False Claims Act (just to name one). Scientology would be in much bigger trouble under these statutes then any fraud law because you are defrauding the public, which is viewed as a much bigger crime.

    Criminal fraud is an entirely different matter and typically includes restitution to the victim.

    Here is the CA law on criminal fraud:

    In the case where the Sea Org members are using up state resources for medical services, this may not constitute fraud if there is no ER duty in existence. These people meet the FPL and asset test guidelines of Medicaid and they are not "employed" (this is a whole other topic that I won't get into here) so they are not doing anything wrong as individuals. As a whole, Scientology may be facing greater problems if they are found to be, in fact, employers (and not granted religious exemption, which we know will never happen as long as the IRS sees them as a religion).

    This is a very interesting topic, though, and I hope to start digging into the religious exemption regulations soon.
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  23. Anonymous Member

    Are Sea Org members on Medicaid? The FPL is the federal poverty level, and, sad to say, I think you're possibly right about them meeting the guidelines of Medicaid. I would dispute whether they are "employed," however. Please take a look at the posts on page 1 of this thread re: volunteers, $500 per year compensation limits, and tax employment forms filled out by Sea Org and Staff. OP also mentions that churches and tax exempt organizations are not exempt from the employer mandate.

    For as important & interesting a topic as this is, this thread has had a shortage of good posters. I will eagerly await the results of your digging.
  24. Enturbuleak Member

    Very good question...
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  25. RolandRB Member

    If they are on Medicaid and their post is advertised as benefitting from medical care then isn't it fraud to be claiming Medicaid? Also, with the Sea Org guy who was run over by a van in Clearwater then why would they be collecting for donations to cover his medical costs?
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  27. Anonymous Member

    Business Owners May Face $100-Per-Day Penalty Under ObamaCare

    Fox Business-by Kate Rogers-Sep 9, 2013
    More at -
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  28. Here are some moar dox:

    "The Fair Labor Standards Act and Religious Organizations" Center for the Study of Law and the Church, Samford University, Birmingham, Alabama Spring 1992 -

    This seems specific about minimum wage requirements under FLSA, but maybe some lawfag can parse it for stuff that applies -
    Minimum Wage Requirements as they Apply to Churches Saturday, Aug 1 2009

  29. Anonymous Member

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  30. failboat Member

    Here's some tangentially related material that I found tonight. Not really helpful, but interesting reading.

    Two weeks till October 1...still waiting for a lolyer to post in this thread.
    The First Step To Negotiating a Conflict Of Values Is Recognizing When Values Are In Conflict

    By Noah Millman • February 2, 2012, 4:30 PM
    Contraceptives and religious freedom: A way forward

    BY ERIC ZORN Wednesday, February 08, 2012
    Instead of Catholics and contraception, think of Scientologists and mental-health services

    Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:49 am by Pat Cunningham

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  31. Anonymous Member

    This simply points out that ObamaCare requires some people to violate their moral code. I figure that is what government does best: create a conflict between the law and a person's conscience.
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  32. Governments also create/pass/enforce all the laws regarding premeditated murder.

    I think we can all agree that premeditated murder goes against a person's conscience.

    We can conclude that laws enforcing the highest sanctions against those who commit said crime in fact create harmony between the law and a person's conscience.

    Premeditated murder is one of many unconscionable crimes (rape, theft, assault & battery) that laws created/passed/enforced by governments sanction. Those laws in fact create harmony between the law and a person's conscience.

    Please think before you post.
  33. Anonymous Member

    Here;'s the distinction you are missing. A crime is a violation of someone's rights. If I hit you with no provocation, that's a crime.

    But if I force you to pay for someone's abortion, the crime is the forcing you to pay for the abortion. SO the legislation itself is the crime.
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  34. Go derail elsewhere, please.

    We're all forced to pay for auto insurance, even though we don't all have car accidents. Is it a crime that you're forced to pay for auto insurance that pays for other people's accidents?

    If your answer is yes, then you're a libertarian, and you need to start a libertarian thread about libertarian ideas.

    Pregnancy is a medical condition, just like any other medical condition, and women have a right to seek treatment for it.
  35. Anonymous Member

    Depending on where you live you may be forced to pay for illegal wars, the execution of prisoners, the incarceration of people for crimes that do not violate anyone's rights, subsidizing corporate malfeasance, etc.

    All of those things conflict with my conscience. However, I accept that in a democracy I can express my disagreement with policies in a variety of ways and work to change them but I can't opt to only pay the portion of my taxes that fund things I consider worth funding.
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  36. failboat Member

    More on this subject. Interesting reading. Scientology owned corporations should not be able to deny coverage for mental health care, unless you agree with all the other exemptions listed here.
    Thomas E. Rutledge *
    Stoll Keenon Ogden PLLC
    Louisville, Kentucky
    © August 13, 2013 by the Author

    This submission draft has been accepted for publication by the WILLIAM & MARY BUSINESS LAW REVIEW (forthcoming vol. 5, issue 1, 2014). This draft does not reflect the edits and revisions of the editors of that publication

    • Like Like x 1
  37. failboat Member

    I created a thread for this on OCMB a few moments ago. It is awaiting a moderator's approval before it becomes publicly viewable.

    I hope someone has time to do the same over on ESMB. Thanks.
    • Like Like x 1
  38. failboat Member

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