Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Anonymous9999, Feb 23, 2008.

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  1. xenubarb Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    Yeah, I guess you're right. I wouldn't picket with a lot of people on ARS. I don't know them. They don't come with references. I have picketed with people I've never met irl, but as you say, they are part of the web of the ARSCC.

    One can move from ARS to Anonymous, but it's harder the other direction. I mean, if I didn't feel like being Xenu on the Ides, I could get me a wig and a mask and just be there with everyone else. There are advantages to both, I suppose. It's all good.
  2. Anon? Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    Anonymous operates as near to a true Direct Democracy as humanity is ever likely to achieve: it's a bastardized fusion of flash mobs, committees, cell-based guerrilla tactics and wiki-thought (for lack of a better term). We've optimized the mix by using the following scaling factors: each guerrilla "cell" of the network is made up entirely of one individual. Cells can work together to complete a task, but are still to be kept independent. The committee is not an overseeing body, but a consensus of all the cells, and as such all individuals involved. That is to say, there is no grand-overseers, but rather that each cell cluster (guerrilla organs, perhaps) acts as a committee unto itself. All cells are equally weighted, each bearing the responsibility of a task, and each bearing the same level of executive decision making.

    The problem is simple: Humans have evolved (or been divinely programmed with) an inherent sense of authority figures and tribalism. The person in charge is important, you must trust them, you must obey them, you must have faith in them, etc. But Humans are flawed, we are instinctively greedy, craving attention and approval and status. This leads to infighting, power struggles, fracture and eventually a collapse of the system, from without or within.

    By being almost entirely faceless, we get past that. I say "almost", because we still have screen names, avatars, etc. We need those to operate, or it would be impossible to organize anything. It does lead to the issue of feedback from wins elevating a person slightly, but this is tempered by the facelessness of it. We have no way of knowing who someone is, or even *how many* someone is. Tamphex, for example, maintains his surface avatar across all the boards. He might have alt-accounts he uses for other purposes, but he maintains a primary to keep himself recognizable. this is due to his responsibilities. I've just done a count of my Anon-related avatars. I have one Enturb-related identity (Anon?), and I have 6 separate non-enturb identities that i maintain and use. I don't plan to keep Anon? for anything more than what I'm doing right now (being a mouthpiece) for much longer, due to the acclaim from Operation Free Will. I don't like it, and it causes problems.

    The final strength we have is Wiki-Thought. Knowledge is free. Educate yourself. These phrases on our posters and signs mean more than you think. The free, unrestricted, ultra-fast flow of information is why we can exist. Everyone is equal when everyone has access to the same info, and can add to that pool of knowledge. Without that equality, we fall. We WANT that equality, because of a simple truth: we are all flawed. If you know something, holding on to that does nothing. If you tell everyone everything you can, they can act on it.

    An example: When the 2/10 protests were being planned, everyone was talking about masks. Then, some random Anon posted on Partyvan that masks are illegal in some cities except on Halloween. Within 12 hours, this had been expanded to have a detailed explanation of the ramifications of this. That, within a day, was expanded to a list of cities where it was definitely illegal, and where it was as of yet unconfirmed.

    We understand *why* you can't tell us everything: you need to protect your source. But if you can't tell us 100%, don't tell us 85%. And don't exaggerate, don't up-sell. Tell us the truth. Without it, we can't function.

    You need to understand my position in this. I'm the caretaker of the email account that is used as a contact to Anonymous for Operation Free Will. I'm currently wrestling with an issue: If I'm contacted by them, how much do I relay to the rest of Anonymous? All of it? If i do that, the Operation is at risk. None of it? If i do that, the push will be lost. I've decided to tell them this: if i make contact, i will relay that. I WILL NOT tell Anon the contents, in any form, of the contact. MY own personal operative guerrilla cell will break off from the rest of the cluster. They will go about their work, and i will report not on the content of my actions, but simply that actions are taking place, and that they will be revealed ASAP.

    Telling us half the story is not how this should work. Do what you do, and don't include us until we can be fully included. Just let us know you're doing things, don't tell us the details. The amount we need to know is: "A contact on the inside is feeding me info." If you can't tell us ALL the info, you need to think VERY hard about what info you can tell us, if any. If it puts your contact at risk, then we should know NONE of it. Prestige breaks our system. It's there, and we use it, but we use it *different*.

    In cases where sources are not being protected, or are actually anonymous, the information release should be complete and rapid. Nothing should be held back.

    I appreciate the Old Guard. Mark Bunker stepped in at exactly the right time, and was a father figure to anonymous. He's our Uncle Phil. All of you have been family to Anonymous. But the Old Guard does need to remember: they're new family is a mob in a pseudo-guerrilla form of chaos. An mobs tend to change direction swiftly when screwed with.

    So: don't string us along. Just trust in what you have here. For Anonymous to fall, ALL of us will have to be stopped. Taking one down doesn't provide access to more. As long as there is still one member of Anonymous, there will be an army. Don't try to be reputable through your deeds, be reputable through mutual respect and playing ball.

    I'm done, before i go more off topic.
  3. DeathHamster Member

  4. Anonagi Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    To J Swift and all the other members of the Old Guard:

    I'm not able to read through this entire thread so let me just say a few things:

    We do respect you. We don't doubt what you've been through, and what you continue to do. You've come a long way and we respect you for what you have done.

    However, in order for Anonymous to operate in any function, no one member can have influence over others, not even the moderators here at enturbulation beyond making sure everyone plays nice.

    An idea gets represented by someone, either anon or not. There is no central leader to declare it as Truth or Anon Doctrine if you will - everyone takes that tidbit of information and decides for themselves the truth of it, wether to incorporate it or not.

    Take the protests for example. I believe for one that they should be serious, so I will make my own appearance, signs, and flyers as serious as possible on the 15th. Others however re more concerned with what music to play and what brand of Hostess snack cakes to bring, as is their perogative. Can Anons like myself tell this other group to take it seriously and knock it the fuck off? Sure. Will they listen? It's up to them, because Anonymous has no leaders.

    When one anonymous starts telling others whats right and wrong for the movement then that invites a concept of leadership, and ultimately, dissent and then the entire thing goes to shit unless you have some sort of totalitarian rule in place (such as the Church of Scientology). It is this idea of people sharing ideas that make Anonymous so effective, and I believe posts from the Old Guard are reflecting that. However, you need to realize that the amount of reputation you have built up over at OCMB as being the old guard does not carry over here.

    Please do not take offense to this. I personally respect you, and I know many other members of this board do too, but due to the nature of anonymous and how each individual makes up their own mind about the information they read, it culls down on wild speculation. Your "inside sources" posts are not ignored - they are treated with the same level of scrutiny as everything else that comes into this collective.

    In all honesty, if your status meant that we DID take the inside information reports more seriously, that would essentially mean that Anonymous DID have more influental people among themselves, and this means a leadership structure, and that leadership would point towards...well, you.

    Given how much the CoS is hellbent on finding leaders right now and will seem to do anything that they can (according to these posts which are being made from "inside sources") how can having what the Old Guard says scrutinized like everything else NOT be benificial to everyone involved?

    I hope that all made sense.

    The point is that Anonymous never takes anything at face value.

    After all, we didn't take Scientology at face value, right? 8)
  5. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    There is no "Old Guard" as an organization, it has no leaders, and nobody's "inside reports" are taken as more than rumors to be weighed. I don't see the problem.
  6. Skeptic1337 Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    We need to institute two rules, don't respond unless you read the thread and no fucking necroing shit.

    Can I get an amen? :p
  7. madashell Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

  8. Anonagi Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    If you consider the Old Guard an entity like Anonymous is, the trend that I saw from reading the thread (and I HAVE read it now) was that Old Guard does not understand why Anonymous scrutinizes what they say and possibly take offense to the fact that we DON'T believe them at face value.

    My attempt was to clarify the mindset of Anonymous and make them realize we treat everyone equally here, and the fact that there is no previous merit or scouts honor system. Everyone is jusdged based n their contributions wether they be good or bad, and only the incredibly stupid ones are labeled as OSA or other plants.

    To give you an example: WBM and Magoo have offered advice that we have taken. Why? Because it was GOOD advice, not because it came from them specifically. We don't give WBM or Magoos words any less scrutinization, and they REALIZE that, and respect that They GET anonymous, they understand it. If WBM or Magoo were to come out with an insanely stupid idea (anywhere from "It's more effective if you don't wear masks" to "We can stop picketing now") would we listen to them because they were indeed, WBM and Magoo? No, we'd throw the idea out because it's not a GOOD one.
  9. Anonymous9999 Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy


    That whole necro falls under "asked and fucking answered".
  10. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    There is no Old Guard, just individuals--who don't always take each other at face value either. Still not seeing a problem.
  11. Skeptic1337 Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

  12. an()n Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    Why do you even care. Makes no difference and will only cause fighting.

    /end thread.
  13. TakeAnonMe Member

    Re: Old Guard, Status, Secrecy

    Anonymous has no hierarchy. Those who have fought for years (or decades) have endured more than most of us ever will, and deserve our respect. The end.
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