One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Nice......

he does indeed paint himself that way, what a madman hubbard was

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Man, this Scientology religion has got to be Hubbard's best work of Sci-fi to date. The way he wrote things, it makes it look like he's divine, that everything has been planned out so well, and that he's got so many followers, even after his death.

L Ron is the original ARG creator.

Just look at everything that's happened. His last work is his most powerful, comprehensive, high impact piece of fiction in existence. Even the Illiad was just a book. His work has become a part of people's lives. I've got to admit, it's really impressive.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

So Hubbard believed he was the antichrist..........

false "church", all about money and powers.....

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

WTF

Sorry, but no. Daoism and Buddhism are completely different belief systems that originated in completely different areas. Where the hell did you learn that they're related?

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

LOL
my bad. Yin and Yang, good and evil. I was getting the two confused. Dao and Confucianism emerged in the Shang dynasty if I recall. Confucianism was more of an ideal than a religion. Ahhh its been a while

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Eh... sorta. Let's just say they take the whole "God the Father" thing pretty literally. Just as your earthly father raises you up to be a strong and independent man or woman, your Heavenly Father raises you up to be a strong and independent god or goddess. And they believe that He too was mortal once, and was lifted into godhood, or "exalted," at some point in the distant past by His spiritual father. It's like Greek mythology meets the Circle of Life. :fuckyou:

But the important thing is, even when you get exalted, God the Father still outranks you in the natural order, whatever that means, so you can't get too much of a swelled head. In Scientology, nothing outranks the thetan.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Ok, what's an ARG?

:-0

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Alternate reality game

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Straight up narcissism. Hardcore.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Anonymous (OP), I think you're treading on real thin ice here. This is so close to inciting religious hatred you could be jailed in some countries. You are also way off base as to what Scientologists believe. Praying to a machine is absolute nonsense.

Scientology technology is a body of knowledge of mans spiritual nature and techniques to raise the awareness of and to free that spirit. It bears resemblance to Buddhism. Whether or not it is a perfect body of knowledge could be debated, but that is not the point of these demonstrations.

It is a very bad idea to go down the path of attacking someones religion and using slander and lies to whip up bigotry. There is far too much of that in the world already and thus far anonymous has correctly and successfully steered clear of that. Anonymous would be very wise to continue to do so.

There are plenty of things in Scientology that are wrong and are very real human rights abuses and need to be stopped. They need to be stopped because they are destructive, criminal actions that hurt people. There are lies, there is coercion, there is forced labour, there is child neglect, there are forced abortions, there is an illegal prison, there is wanton disregard for peoples safety. These are all very valid points to address. Don't degrade this movement into religious mudslinging. Go hang out in Jerusalem if that's what you want.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

what s/he said. (except that Kookaburra has a more reverent attitude toward "the tech" than me.) apart form everything else, they just love to play that religious persecution card.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

We aren't protesting their beliefs, just their actions.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is not going to work here.

Anon is made up of so many different kinds of people that there in not one overriding belief system. We have only one goal: The downfall of the cult of scientology. To bring in other issues will muddy the waters.

As a Cristian looking at scientology, I don't feel threatened by its "theology."
I think their creation story is very funny. I believe LRH preys on humankind's longing for a higher power to worship and turn to. The way they quote his words, keep offices and houses ready for his "second coming" and salute his picture is a form of worship. I think he would be astonished that his cult is still around. Scilons need to be free to choose their own path. As a Christian, I hope they consider my religion, but the point is having the freedom to choose.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Your opening post states otherwise.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Alright, this be my opinion on this here dealy-o, yo.

Attempting to "prove" to various people that Scientology is a "wrong" religion, in the sense of not sharing the tenets of their religion, and convincing them towards an anti-Scientology attitude or even better action thereby == difficult for those who are not students of comparative religion already, with a high likelihood of backfiring if we get any of the details wrong. Generally, not a good idea.

However...

Simply publicizing the easily-proven fact that Scientology lies about itself as a religion to people who take religion very seriously == much easier and likely to reap many of the same benefits. And when I say "lies about itself as a religion" I'm not talking about "Scientology claims it's a religion and I don't think it's a religion so I'll call that a lie on their part." Nuh-uh. I'm talking about "Scientology claims to be 'compatible' with Christianity even as it declares that it made John Travolta a more spiritually advanced being than Jesus Christ -- you could call that a very strange use of the word 'compatible' but wouldn't it be more accurate to call it a lie?"

I think this is an approach that's more consistent with Anonymous' message: you can choose whatever religion you want, you can even practice Scientology and consider it your religion, but the Church of Scientology must stop its immoral and unethical practices, and one of them is telling lies to people about what Scientology is and isn't to try and get them hooked.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I don't like this idea, it looks too much like attacking their beliefs and "religions freedoms"

Let's stay more on target and ask direct questions about the abuses of the church.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I understand the logic, but keep in mind that it is the same many people / groups stick with scientology, e.g. alternative medicines against "psychiatric abuses".

If the association goes on, you have to back what the bigger group says, like it or not.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I agree with your statement that approching this subject from a secular point of view will be labeled as religious hatred. However, a role can be played to educate the legitimate religions about how Scientology is linked to the "Anti-christ" for Christian, Judaic and Islam religions, they can preach against it. Primarily, education about how Scientology is about money, power and abuses of a right to freedom should be highlighted.

hmmmm I could get the word out to the Navajo people and elders by translation and flyer distribution. I know some people with influence around that whole rez.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I am not here to incite religious bigotry against the Church of Scientology.
I am hear to bring awareness of their crimes.

A man can and will believe whatever religious/spiritual/theological theory he wants to. Even if it happenes to be that God is a Machine ((how cyberpunk)).

It is in doing illegal things that they are being protested, not in what they believe (or don't believe) to be spiritual. I think everyone needs to keep on that track.

If we don't, their accusations of religious intolerance become real. I do not want my name/face attached to religious intolerance.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I would add "unethical" and "immoral" to your "illegal", but otherwise agree with you. As I mentioned above, Scientology tells a lot of lies about how "compatible" it is with other religions, and I think it's good to make people aware of those lies. It's not religious intolerance to say "don't use your religion as an excuse for lying to my face."

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I agree. But attacking in any way their actual "spiritual beliefs", whatever they may be... (We all lol at Xenu...) to the public, or to other religious types will only make us look bad. Then Co$ will pull the religious persecution card and we are Done. Like dinner. There will be no coming back from that.

Because if there is anything that will bring us down, it's the Co$ successfully painting us as bigots. No one will give us the time of day and the entire crusade will become epic fail.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Not all "spiritual beliefs" are defensible. E.g. ritual human sacrifice to appease Kali is quite spiritual (and quite illegal).

The Introspection Rundown is said to be a "spiritual" belief / practice. It killed Lisa McPherson.

You _could_ try arguing that all the Scientology beliefs and practices which happen to be spiritual / religious very luckily happen to be harmless. But I think that's a dead end.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

its not religious bigotry to object on every level to this mafia style collective of door to door bullshit salesmen and women.

the Truth is a counter to their Lies.

if the Truth is Hubbard had delusions of being the antichrist, then why not exploit that in order to innoculate the judeo christian and islam populations.

think about it

a christian takes a free stress test and is told Scientology accepts and enhances all religions, that they have "christians" like you in the membership.

at this point they are receptive to learning more.

throw in the Truth that Hubbard as part of his grand delusion believed he was the antichrist as mentioned in the bible.......

its not bigotry to tell it like it is, much as the scilons would like you to believe it is.

for the record i find all of mankinds various "superstitions" abhorrent, and i find that using the "mechanism" of religion like $cientology does to be even worse.

religious bigotry doesent even factor in this matter for me, because i know full well its not a religion. its a greed fueled pyrimid selling scheme, posing as a religion in order to maximise its profits

making sure the Whole Wide World has the same Knowledge is the Fix

And now that we have the internets, nothing can stop us from spreading the Truth

the Cult tried, tried to pull its silly tom cruise video, and look what happened.
as one news reader said, they took a crisis, and turned it into a disaster.

ive been asking freinds and family who i know see the world through christian glasses to google "scientology occult". the response is " wow i didnt know THAT"

innoculated

PS $cientology, my aunty bett is a rabid god botherer, a sandwhich board carrying end of the world is nigh , testify to anyone ,god botherer, she googled "scientology occult" and well....... dont offer her a free stress test or she will give you an ear full, prob give your booth an afternoons worth of public testimonial (shes a shocker at the family christmas get together)

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Yeah, but the question is, "How are we going to sell John Q. Public on what we already know to be true, namely that the Church of Scientology is a bunch of vicious immoral lying scumbags who should never be trusted and whose products should be avoided?" Any answer which involves "We reveal to John Q. Public that the religious beliefs the Church of Scientology sells are offensive to him" is intensely problematic because many John Q. Publics will not find those religious beliefs offensive and many John Q. Publics will actually find far more offensive the suggestion that anyone's religious beliefs should be held up for criticism.

Now, you know and I know that Scientology is actually a set of non-religious beliefs that L. Ron decided to start calling a religion because doing so had tax benefits. But if we try to tell this to a John Q. Public who's sensitive about religious freedom, they won't wait for us to explain why anyone looking at all the evidence and weighing it carefully would have to conclude that the Church of Scientology's claims to religious status are insincere.

We are far more likely to drive in the wedge by pointing out how the CoS lies about its "compatibility" with other religions. Some people are predisposed to sympathize with "persecuted" "religions". No one is predisposed to sympathize with a calculated liar.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

As a Christian, I have to disagree with the OP. Christ taught the radical notion of loving one's enemies. I'm not going to hate someone else for believing differently than me and I do not advocate teaching others to do so either even if it would bring them to the cause of protesting Scientology.

Stick with spreading the truth about Scientology's lies, harassment, constant abuse/flouting of the law and it's money making schemes. Those things alone are offensive enough to get people involved with out dragging personal beliefs into it.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

i read the first post but the rest is tl;dr so i dont know if this has really been said, but there many other RELIGIONS that do not have a God or Gods. I'm no scientologist but i'm fairly sure they don't pray to a machine, they use one to find the answers in themselves (like a calculator in math)
so i dont think that we can attack the whole "no god thing" in the religion.

But i would like to Raise this point: in todays modern world what is it that scares people most?
Its other people saying that their religions is right and that your religion or way of life is wrong. This is why many people are afraid of Muslims (not attacking anyone) but the Muslim religious extremists scare the shit out of people when they attack your religions and say that since you're not with them; you must be against them.

So lets look at scientology? They attack other religions, L Ron Hubbard said "that Jesus died for his own sins, was homosexual and a child molester." this is just one of the attacks he made.
Scientology Claims that if you're not with them then you're not clear and a danger to them. they back this up with "fair gaming."

this is their weak spot, their inability to accept any other religion! Christians accept that people don't have to believe in god, Buddhist don't really care and Muslims just dont want you to practice other religions in the middle east.
Scientology is the one who cannot accept others.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Whether Hubbard said that particular thing about Jesus being "a lover of young boys and men" is debated, but I think you're correct that it's hardly the only example that can be found of Hubbard being intolerant towards other religions.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Not sure if it was mentioned, but remember scilons have an automatic counter to whether they believe in a monotheistic deity, they say 'yes, we worship the eighth dynamic, also known as God.' They truly believe you can be whatever faith and still worship while being scientologist, as their 'spiritual technology' incorporates the monotheistic god paradigm.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

The problem is here, that the definition of a religion is just about as vague as the definition of what art is. And such a discussion is counter-productive.
if you believe in something, and that something is not proven niether true nor false, then that could be enough to call it a religion.

I will however agree that Scientology is narcissicstic. It could be summed up as a sort of bastard child consisting of:
Bhuddism
Self-Help courses
Manipulation
Alien theology
Pyramid Schemes


I think we should just stick to attacking their wrongdoings, and leave the theological discussion here, since it is not suitable for attack.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Whether or not we are Christians or atheists is not the point. Whether or not Buddhism, Humanism and Unitarianism are religions is not the point. We have a single target and it is clear enough. I believe it is very important to be able to prove that Scientology is NOT a religion and to produce a defined argument about this. To start with it would then lose its tax-exempt status In the US do that donations including course fees would no longer be tax-deductible. Wealthy celebrities might think twice before making huge donations. It would certainly hit Wee Davie hard in the pocket.

But don't forget there are Scientology orgs all over the world. The importance of its religious status is maybe not fully realized in the US (which is a very 'religious' place) but it's very clear in Europe (which is much less so) and European Scientologists constantly hark back to the fact that Scientology is a religion in the USA. So they have got favorable treatment in Spain, Sweden, South Africa, Australia, etc. The CoS even won a case against Russia in the Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg by claiming to be a religion. They complained that they had been badly treated, that their human rights to worship had been denied, and they won. All of this is FAIL, some of it EPIC. One loophole and they are in there like a cancer spreading. But in Germany they are NOT recognised as a religion although some videos were recognised as educational and so except from Value Added Tax (howls of glee from the orgs). Is the German ruling in English anywhere? It is the kind of document we need.

By all means let Scientologists (and Christians and Buddhists and Jews) believe in anything they find useful but OP is right that we should attack them on their phony and very vulnerable insistence on religious status.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Scientology cannot complain about religious intolerance since (if) it is not a religion. It then becomes a way of life, a way of thinking, a commercial enterprise, whatever.

As I see it the problem is that many things that are unethical and immoral by some standards are allowed within religions. Thus the Co$ exploits its religious status to move tax-free money freely around the world, to avoid paying taxes, to invest in property to make more money, to move personnel wherever it suits them (using religious passports), to separate children from their parents for their education, to use unpaid slave labor, to promote whatever loony ideas LRH came up with, to punish and reform members who have strayed from the path. It can get away with all these things because it claims to be a religion and is so treated. There is not the slightest doubt that these claims are fraudulent. They are part of a deliberate plan to create the trappings of a religion with the specific intention of defrauding tax authorities, judges, school boards, the media, and the public.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I read OP, not the rest of the read, so hoping noone said this before.

The myth that Scientology is compatible with all religions is incredibly easy to dismiss.
Visit their website; Scientology - Church of Scientology Official Site
And you will see that Scientology believes in reincarnation.
This is fundamentally incompatible with Cristianity and islam, since they will tell you your soul goes to heaven or hell after death, and no reincarnation is possible.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

But you cant prove that scientology is not a religion.

If I claimed i was Jesus v. 2.0 there was nothing you could say or do to prove me wrong.
You could make it seem very implausible, but that is beside the point, you could not prove me wrong.

In the same way, we cannot prove that scientology is not a religion, since the very idea of a religion requires believing in something implausible.

What CAN be critizised is everything regarding the practices of Scientology.

You simply cannot disprove something which does not rely on logic.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

The Scilons would simply respond that they believe in the "8 Dynamics" with the 8th Dynamic being "The Infinite" and a Scilon is free to perceive that the Infinite is God.

They will dismiss your argument that they are "a Godless People" with this.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

tl;dr-ing the thread (and I'm not the first, I bet), but the OP needs to get it through his head that BELIEF IN A DEITY IS NOT THE ABSOLUTE DEFINITION OF A RELIGION. Not even close. In fact, I'd say more than half of the religions you'd ever come across do not worship a god figure.

Alternatively, many recent systems commonly considered cults (a less than ideal example would be FLDS, but there are others) DO believe in deities. And I think you could make a surprisingly decent argument that scilon appreciation of LRH sometimes approaches god-worship.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I'll just open this up by saying I'm an atheist so I won't even bother with any pretense of impartiality.

That said, trying to get the fundamentalist/ hellfire and brimstone version of any religion on our side is going to be ineffectual. It's like using a stick of dynamite as a candle...just not one of the world's greatest ideas. For starters, as other people have said, it starts turning this into a religious issue, which we've been very careful in not doing.
Plus, when the ball gets rolling the religious fundamentalists will say whatever they wish and won't play by your/ our guidelines and I guarantee epic footbullets for all in that case.

Besides that, just take a look at our website and Anonymous in general...who do you think Mr. Preacher down the street is going to side with? The scientologist's clean cut front image or us, who have Pedobear and the niggabeam? I mean, really, be serious. It's not a slam against us, I think it's all in good fun, but in a war of morality, we look like the bad guys at first glance and that's the only glance someone like Robertson would give us.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

A religion by definition does not have to have a god. It just has to have a set of beliefs and practices. I think it is a nice discussion your having but in order to get these guys you have to go for what is real and tangible and clearly defined in law. Religion is always going to be a grey area and will always be subject to interpretation. To grab these guys by the balls you need a different angle a legal angle that has no grey area. I would go right to this document by the IRS: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf Go right to pages 5-7 and see how an org can be invloved in "Jeopardizing Tax-Exempt Status" Send the information to every goverment agency. If you don't have enough information on them one might set a trap for scifaggots and make them jeopardize their tax-exempt status. But this would be very mean and nobody here would even think of such a thing.

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Yes,
but there are good reasons many people confuse them...

Buddhism as it originated and developed in India, was practiced
quite differently, and had different emphases- from the practices
that developed over time in outlying regions.

The native Chinese interpretation of Buddhism- as carried over by monks
wandering or fleeing from political/religious messes back home,
had strong developmental influence, from people trained in older Chinese
traditions.

There's considerable dispute over just what Ch'an borrowed from the Dao,
vs what emerged in parallel, and similarities that are just superficial coincidence-
but BOTH Ch'an and Dao are strongly colored by the culture in which they flourished.

Ch'an monks in Japan furthered an even more minimalist practice: Zen.
Stripped to its bare bones, Zen can be imagined to resemble pretty much anything.
Westerners who don't 'get' either Zen or Dao, frequently don't distinguish
the two. I have been inside Daoist temples that had altars laid out for
Buddhas- not because they follow these teachings or practices,
but as a gesture of respect.

From a Ch'an venerable master. :razz:

(some) Daoists and some Buddhists I know, regard the two as profoundly exclusive.
Others feel they are different reflections of a common underlying truth.

I'm not sure what (if any) influence, the cross-cultural contact brought to Daoism.
Perhaps a loosening of the Confucian death-grip?? dunno, but TL;DR

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

I am 50 years old and a devout fundamental Christian (I take the bible literally and try to follow it as closely as I can) When my son introduced me to Anon and their protest I quickly agreed that it was a good cause. I am very impressed by the xneu site and feel it has been very helpful in educating me on the truth about the Cult OS. When I view the Cult OS's site I see it as an obvious attempt to sound good and recruit followers, I do not believe anything they say about their organization--thanks to anon and their sites.
I do not believe we need to be concerned with convincing Christians or other religous people (Mr. Joe Public's for that matter) that the Cult of OS is not a religion. All we have to do is inform them of the actions of the cult and they will want to join arms with us against the Cult of OS. I do think it would be good to focus on stripping them of the religion classification but more on a legal/governmental level; not as part of our effort to inform and increase our numbers of the public. If I were a judge that had to determine if an organization qualifies for tax exempt status what would I look at? What legally qualifies a group as a religion?
one other note: think about the FLDS; no one gave them a second thought until they found out they were molesting and marrying off young girls to old men--I have not met anyone who defends their right to do what they were doing. The public and our government needs to be made aware of these same type of acts that the Cult of OS is pulling off.
(notice I refuse to call their organization a Church, I think we should all get in the habit of referring to them as COS--cult of scientology (like we talked about at our last protest).

Re: One of Scientology's most vulnerable points that they don't want you to realize

Agreed, in regards to the focus being on the legal and government levels. If we want something that's going to really hurt scientology it's going to come from that arena, imo. Personally, we've made some flyers highlighting the tax break scilons get from sending their children to a CoS school; a tax break no other religious group receives for the same service.

In regards to the religious aspect, no offense, but I think you're a refreshing, but rare type of fundamentalist that would hang with us on these boards. :wink:
I'm simply saying, as amusing as the thought is, getting a bunch of outspoken religious leaders would be more of a bane than a boon. Just take a look at some of the problems barack obama has had recently as an example. Naturally, people can do whatever they want on the local or individual level, but as a broad sweeping policy? Not so much.