Greetings one and all it's Johnny Reb here and here is a new OP to work on for anyone in the Lexington Virginia area interested in this new OP. These links provide information about the American soldier who this is all about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/biographies/robert-e-lee.html In July of last year a group of law students at Washington and Lee university sent an E-mail to the school board of trustees after seven of the students had stated that they where offended by the following display within the Lee Chapel on campus This is a copy of the E-mail sent to the board of trustees. The E-mail was then forwarded to the School president and then it was acted upon resulting in the removal of Confederate battle flags in Confederate General Robert E. Lee's tomb within the Lee chapel and the banning of the flag from display on campus. And the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy where also banned from holding memorial services for the General in the Lee Chapel. http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...19e580-06bb-11e4-8a6a-19355c7e870a_story.html http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...oQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNFRA72R9OxCcuh7yplJ538B8fBRBQ Any thoughts, questions, and/or observations are welcome. The end goal of this is to have the flags returned to the school and to have the school president removed from office.
"...I tried all in my power to avert this war. I saw it coming, for twelve years I worked night and day to prevent it, but I could not. The North was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize the musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence, and that, or extermination..." President Jefferson Davis, Confederate States of America The Atlantic Monthly, Volume 14, Page 378, 1864 Papers of Jefferson Davis: October 1863-August 1864 - https://books.google.com/books... From the Richmond Examiner editorial by John M. Daniel ... "August 4, 1864. MR. DAVIS, in conversation with a Yankee spy, named Edward Kirk, is reported by said spy to have said, “We are not fighting for slavery; we are fighting for independence.” This is true ; an is a truth that has not sufficiently been dwelt upon. It would have been very much to be desired that this functionary had developed the idea in some message, or some other State paper, which would have carried it round the world, and repeated it in all languages of civilized nations, instead of leaving it to be promulgated through the doubtful report of an impudent blockade-runner, who ought to have been put in Castle Thunder. The sentiment is true, an should be publicly uttered and kept conspicuously in view ; because our enemies have diligently labored to make all mankind believe that the people of these States have set up a pretended State sovereignty, and based themselves upon that ostensibly, while their real object has been only to preserve to themselves the property in so many negroes, worth so many millions of dollars. The direct reverse is the truth. The question of slavery is only one of the minor issues; and the cause of the war, the whole cause, on our part, is the maintenance of the sovereign independence of these States. At the beginning of the struggle, and even now, to a great extent, our enemies had, and have, the ear of the world; and they have very dexterously labored to represent us as rushing into a dreadful war on a paltry question of dollars. In the crusade the were about to make upon us, they have shown the utmost solicitude to gain for themselves, in advance, the sympathies of foreign nations, especially of England and France; and, of course, their chief means of gaining this point, consisted in representing that we had no higher or nobler cause to fight for than the possession of a certain quantity of serviceable negro flesh. Thus they knew that not only all the prevailing cants would be canted on their side, but also that a war waged to break up a free and beneficent government upon such a mean issue, would revolt all statesmen, publicists, and thinkers of high mark in every country, who have the true sentiment of national dignity, and can appreciate the loftier and purer springs of human actions on the grand scale. The Yankee knew he might boldly claim the good wishes of civilized communities, so long as he could make it be believed that the only thought and care of the South was that she might keep still on her plantations so many slave bands, raising each year bales per hand. The whole cause of our resistance was and is, the pretension and full determination of the Northern States to use their preponderance in the Federal representation, in order to govern the Southern States for their profit, just as Austria governs Venetia, Russia governs Poland, or England governs Ireland. Slavery was the immediate occasion—carefully made so by them—it was not the cause. The tariff, which almost brought about the disruption some years ago, would have much more accurately represented, though it did not cover, or exhaust, the real cause of the quarrel. Yet neither tariff's nor slavery, nor both together, could ever have been truly called the cause of the secession and the war. We refuse to accept for a cause any thing lower, meaner, smaller, than that truly announced, namely, the sovereign independence of our States. This, indeed, includes both those minor questions, as well as many others yet graver and higher. It includes full power to regulate our trade for our own profit, and also complete jurisdiction over our own social and domestic institutions; at it further involves all the nobler attributes of national, and even of individual life and character. A community which once submits to be schooled, dictated to, legislated for, by any other, soon grows poor in spirit; it becomes at last incapable of producing a high style of men: its very soul withers within in it: in it no genius, no art, can have its home. If they arise within its borders, they migrate to the dominant country, and seek there their career and their reward: its citizens, become a kind of halfmen, feel that they have hardly a right to walk in the sun; take the lowest seats at the world’s tables, and there is no man to say, Friend, go up higher. And the people of Virginia do not choose to accept that position for themselves and for their children. They choose rather to die. They own a noble country, which their fathers created, exalted, and transmitted to them with all its treasures of high names and great deeds; with all its native wealth of untamable manhood. That inheritance we intend to own while we live, and leave intact to those who are to come after us. It is ours from the centre of the earth up to the heavens, with all the minerals beneath it, and all the sky above it. It is right to let foreign nations, and “ those whom it may concern,” understand this theory of our independence. Let them understand that, though we are “not fighting for slavery,” we will not allow ourselves to be dictated to in regard to slavery or any other of our internal affairs, not because that would diminish our interest in any property, but because it touches our independence...." James R. Gilmore—otherwise known as "Edmund Kirke"—who recently visited Richmond with Col. Jacques, writes an explanatory note respecting his visit to the Boston Transcript of July 22, 1864, in which he says of their "mission": "It will result In nothing. Jefferson Davis said to me last Sunday, (and with all his faults I believe him to bo a man of truth): "This war must go on till the last of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize his musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self-government. We are not fighting for slavery; we are fighting for independence, and that or extermination we will have...." The Richmond Daily Dispatch: Thursday morning...July 28. 1864 Miscellaneous. Edmund Kirke, who was recently in Richmond with Col Jacques, has published a card, in which he says that Jefferson Davis stated to him: "This war must go on till the test of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize his musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for independence, and that or extermination we will have." ………… James R. Gilmore was a wealthy merchant and, under the name of Edmund Kirke, a well-known publicist of mildly emancipationist views. He was born in Boston, Massachusetts, September 10, 1823. Entering business at a early age, Gilmore made annual business trips to the south, and at the age of twenty-five became the head of a new cotton and shipping firm in New York City, from which he retired before the beginning of the Civil War. In the early years of the War, he published several novels, containing realistic portrayals of Southern life and feeling, under the pen name Edmund Kirke. He also wrote numerous war-song and ballads. http://collections.library.app...
This monument was placed in 1905 and was vandalized in 2011. How low can one sink?? Vandalized monument Gettysburg P.A.
What is your goddamn problem with these flags, Reb? Why would you, or anyone, want them to be put anywhere? It's a fucking symbol of slavery. Do you think slavery was ok?
It is not a symbol of slavery, and slavery is not ok then or now. The institution of slavery existed under the English Union jack before America gained it's independence from England and after that it existed under the stars and stripes for eighty nine years and was protected by the 1789 United States Constitution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_colonial_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_slav.html And several countries participated in the slave trade including England, France, Spain, The Early United States, and The Netherlands. If the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of slavery then by your POV the flags of England, France, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands and the United States are symbols of slavery. So in short my answer is no.
I disagree, however I do wish we could let it go but it doesn't look like we will be able to do that anytime soon.
Calling it the Confederate flag sounds like your talking about one of the three national flags... It's a blanket term and it shouldn't be used so much. Anyway I'm looking for anyone from the Lexington Virginia area that would be interested in working on sorting this thing out. Students and visitors to the final resting place of Gen. Lee are being arrested and removed from the school campus for displaying the battle flag on their shirts and hats, why should the will of six or seven people be imposed upon hundreds if not thousands of people because they don't feel comfortable with a certain piece of American history I understand that the battle flag has negative effect on some people but so does the stars and stripes to Native Americans. What if there was a group of Native Americans at the university that took offence to the American flag and wanted it removed from campus? Should the school president deny the other students their rights under the Constitution and honor their request? As a lover of American history and a strong believer in the idea of the Constitution I don't think that this is right and something should be done about it before political correctness has complete control over our lives. My question to those who want to erase history is this: Where does it end?
Jonny my point is you have started several threads on the same issue, different aspects but the same issue. Please stick to one thread. It's what we ask of all users.
People are only offended do to the fact they have not done any truth seeking on it. It is our history were talking about its not or should not be considered a stain to bleach out and wipe clean no matter how bad it may seem to people our history is what makes us not make the same mistakes in the future. if anyone had any respect for the history that they came from they would try there damnedest to keep it intact. To the person saying its like the Nazi stuff it is very much different and yet people still raise the Nazi flags. I'm a Texan so no I don't raise the battle flags Johnny is talking about but I still believe that him fighting for it is not a bad thing at all I actually agree with it. To the guy talking about all the other big Op's like what Johnny is fighting for is nothing but I disagree with that there is no problem to big or to small its about what you believe in and what you want to fight for. Anonymous is about freedom of speech, right to all information, the truth, and not being censored well guess what Johnny is fighting for all of those things in his own way and I support him.
Well spoken Wrath I couldn't agree more. History is history and changing it or re-writing it will solve nothing and will only make it worse and until we find some common ground on this thing we can never advance as a nation. We must forgive each other for our past wrong doings and learn to come together as one inspite of our differences. If you pick and chose what parts of history you think should be done away with just because it may offend someone then you are nothing but a historical revisionist and I have zero respect for these idiots that write the South's history the way they want it to be written. Anonymous is about freedom of speech, right to all information, the truth, and not being censored well guess what Johnny is fighting for all of those things. You know I have forgotten how many times I have said this and I will say that this is true and I wouldn't have it any other way. Another thing is this, I have been beaten black and blue for fighting for what I believe in, I have been spat on, called names, have gotten death threats in the mail and over the phone and you know what guys? I do not care what happens to me because I know that what I am fighting for is a just cause and I hope that you will see that I am simply fighting for what I believe in. Take in what this woman has to say. "...Any society which suppresses the heritage of its conquered minorities, prevents their history or denies them their symbols, has sown the seeds of their own destruction....” Sir William Wallace, 1281
As far as my limited knowledge of history is concerned, Confederates were those guys who fought for, not against slavery. That makes their leaders, as well as those privates, who fought for slavery because they wanted to, fucking scums. And that makes Confederate flag a symbol of slavery. Same as Nazi flag. Not all Confederate soldiers were pro-slavery scums. And not all Nazi soldiers were actually blood-thirsty murderous psychopaths. But Nazi flag is a symbol of... well, Nazi. War crime, genocide, slavery, hatred and radical nationalism. And so Confederate flag is a symbol of what Confederates fought for. If we looked deep enough into our countries' history, we'd agree that every country existing in the world had slavery at some point, many of them also had inquisitions and witch hunts, each country had dark ages and each country's history is covered in blood. That doesn't make all the flags symbols of slavery and genocide. But if two parties, one pro-slavery, and one against it fight each other, then the first party's flag is a symbol of slavery. Period. Forgiving is for pussies. As is blaming new generations for old generations' sins. Or blaming the whole nation for 1%, 5%, 50% or 90%'s sins. Forgiving is not the answer. The answer is blaming the responsible and not forgiving them ever.
Its upsetting to me how people get butt hurt over a flag that stood for more than what is given to it, the people rallying behind that flag died for what they believed in show some fucking respect, i doubt most people are willing to die for what they believe in anymore. So that being said anyone who is so easily offended needs some help if your that sensitive to something that never applied to you and a war that had been over for about 2 centuries ago, simply fuck off and respect the dead or ignore it it would be different if it was promoting slavery but it is not. I might be a bit late to this thread im just stating my opinion on the flag and what occured to it without lurking much into the thread. History is written by the victor.
Id like to point out the Confederates were not fighting for slavery most actually agreed that slavery was a bad thing. In fact a lot of the "Confederate scum" people want to hate actually were on the slaves side, they would buy them then tell them while your on this land you are free and in turn many slaves would offer there hands up for work as respect. People get so bent out of shape about something they know so little about and just want to just on the hatred band wagon. That's what is wrong with this world not the Confederate Flag or the Nazi flag its people who only know how to hate, who show no respect for anything, and who don't care about really looking into something before shitting out there mouth (talking). The Confederates were simply fighting for there rights they have made and lived by yet the North disagreed with it and attacked them for it the South never attacked the North for what they believed in.
So if I go look up Alexander Hamilton Stephens the VP of the Confederacy speeches non of them mention slavery as a positive or in a racist manner ? http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/
This contradicts the "Cornerstone Speech" given by vice president Alexander Stephens. "...I tried all in my power to avert this war. I saw it coming, for twelve years I worked night and day to prevent it, but I could not. The North was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize the musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence, and that, or extermination..." President Jefferson Davis, Confederate States of America The Atlantic Monthly, Volume 14, Page 378, 1864 Papers of Jefferson Davis: October 1863-August 1864 https://books.google.com/books... From the Richmond Examiner editorial by John M. Daniel ... "August 4, 1864. MR. DAVIS, in conversation with a Yankee spy, named Edward Kirk, is reported by said spy to have said, “We are not fighting for slavery; we are fighting for independence.” This is true ; an is a truth that has not sufficiently been dwelt upon. It would have been very much to be desired that this functionary had developed the idea in some message, or some other State paper, which would have carried it round the world, and repeated it in all languages of civilized nations, instead of leaving it to be promulgated through the doubtful report of an impudent blockade-runner, who ought to have been put in Castle Thunder. The sentiment is true, an should be publicly uttered and kept conspicuously in view ; because our enemies have diligently labored to make all mankind believe that the people of these States have set up a pretended State sovereignty, and based themselves upon that ostensibly, while their real object has been only to preserve to themselves the property in so many negroes, worth so many millions of dollars. The direct reverse is the truth. The question of slavery is only one of the minor issues; and the cause of the war, the whole cause, on our part, is the maintenance of the sovereign independence of these States. At the beginning of the struggle, and even now, to a great extent, our enemies had, and have, the ear of the world; and they have very dexterously labored to represent us as rushing into a dreadful war on a paltry question of dollars. In the crusade they were about to make upon us, they have shown the utmost solicitude to gain for themselves, in advance, the sympathies of foreign nations, especially of England and France; and, of course, their chief means of gaining this point, consisted in representing that we had no higher or nobler cause to fight for than the possession of a certain quantity of serviceable negro flesh. Thus they knew that not only all the prevailing cants would be canted on their side, but also that a war waged to break up a free and beneficent government upon such a mean issue, would revolt all statesmen, publicists, and thinkers of high mark in every country, who have the true sentiment of national dignity, and can appreciate the loftier and purer springs of human actions on the grand scale. The Yankee knew he might boldly claim the good wishes of civilized communities, so long as he could make it be believed that the only thought and care of the South was that she might keep still on her plantations so many slave bands, raising each year bales per hand. The whole cause of our resistance was and is, the pretension and full determination of the Northern States to use their preponderance in the Federal representation, in order to govern the Southern States for their profit, just as Austria governs Venetia, Russia governs Poland, or England governs Ireland. Slavery was the immediate occasion—carefully made so by them—it was not the cause. The tariff, which almost brought about the disruption some years ago, would have much more accurately represented, though it did not cover, or exhaust, the real cause of the quarrel. Yet neither tariff's nor slavery, nor both together, could ever have been truly called the cause of the secession and the war. We refuse to accept for a cause any thing lower, meaner, smaller, than that truly announced, namely, the sovereign independence of our States. This, indeed, includes both those minor questions, as well as many others yet graver and higher. It includes full power to regulate our trade for our own profit, and also complete jurisdiction over our own social and domestic institutions; at it further involves all the nobler attributes of national, and even of individual life and character. A community which once submits to be schooled, dictated to, legislated for, by any other, soon grows poor in spirit; it becomes at last incapable of producing a high style of men: its very soul withers within in it: in it no genius, no art, can have its home. If they arise within its borders, they migrate to the dominant country, and seek there their career and their reward: its citizens, become a kind of halfmen, feel that they have hardly a right to walk in the sun; take the lowest seats at the world’s tables, and there is no man to say, Friend, go up higher. And the people of Virginia do not choose to accept that position for themselves and for their children. They choose rather to die. They own a noble country, which their fathers created, exalted, and transmitted to them with all its treasures of high names and great deeds; with all its native wealth of untamable manhood. That inheritance we intend to own while we live, and leave intact to those who are to come after us. It is ours from the centre of the earth up to the heavens, with all the minerals beneath it, and all the sky above it. It is right to let foreign nations, and “ those whom it may concern,” understand this theory of our independence. Let them understand that, though we are “not fighting for slavery,” we will not allow ourselves to be dictated to in regard to slavery or any other of our internal affairs, not because that would diminish our interest in any property, but because it touches our independence...." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James R. Gilmore—otherwise known as "Edmund Kirke"—who had recently visited Richmond with Col. Jacques, writes an explanatory note respecting his visit to the Boston Transcript of July 22, 1864, in which he says of their "mission": "It will result In nothing. Jefferson Davis said to me last Sunday, (and with all his faults I believe him to bo a man of truth): "This war must go on till the last of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize his musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self-government. We are not fighting for slavery; we are fighting for independence, and that or extermination we will have...." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Richmond Daily Dispatch: Thursday morning...July 28. 1864 Miscellaneous. Edmund Kirke, who was recently in Richmond with Col Jacques, has published a card, in which he says that Jefferson Davis stated to him: "This war must go on till the test of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize his musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for independence, and that or extermination we will have." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Answer this question...why would Davis and the Richmond Examiner say this if this was the "corner- stone" that the Confederate government was founded upon? Here's five reasons why your wrong. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." Abraham Lincoln in the Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858 (The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.) "..I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. I recollect of but one distinguished instance that I ever heard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its correctness-and that is the case of Judge Douglas's old friend Col. Richard M. Johnson. [Laughter.] I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject,) that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, [laughter] but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, [roars of laughter] I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. [Continued laughter and applause.] I will add one further word, which is this: that I do not understand that there is any place where an alteration of the social and political relations of the negro and the white man can be made except in the State Legislature-not in the Congress of the United States-and as I do not really apprehend the approach of any such thing myself, and as Judge Douglas seems to be in constant horror that some such danger is rapidly approaching, I propose as the best means to prevent it that the Judge be kept at home and placed in the State Legislature to fight the measure. [Uproarious laughter and applause.] I do not propose dwelling longer at this time on this subject..." Abraham Lincoln in the Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858 http://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htm "..My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.." Letter from Abraham Lincoln to Horace Greeley August 22nd 1862- http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm “See our present condition—the country engaged in war! Our White men cutting one another’s throats! And then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another. Why should the people of your race be colonized, and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated. It is better for both, therefore, to be separated...” — Spoken at the White House to a group of black community leaders, August 14th, 1862, from COLLECTED WORKS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, Vol 5, page 371. "Do the people of the South really entertain fear that a Republican administration would directly or indirectly interfere with their slaves, or with them about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you that once, as a friend, and still I hope not as an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears. The South would be in no more danger in this respect than it was in the days of Washington." -[Abraham Lincoln to Alexander Stephens-Vice President of the Confederacy]. Springfield, Ills., Dec. 22, 1860. Public and Private Letters of Alexander Stephens, p. 150 Must I go on? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh and Albino Back, because you have this limited knowledge on this subject I believe that more research is in order.
All these walls of text to try and make your endorsement of the Confederate flag into something positive and light. You're not fooling me. I grew up in the south. I've lived and traveled all over the south. I know what's said when there are no people of color in the room. Spin spin spin. The Civil War was about state's rights and independence because they wanted to extend fucking slavery into the west and to continue to use slaves in the south. Y'all always forget that last part when you spew this bullshit trying to get that Confederate flag of hate accepted by polite society. It's not enough that racism is rampant and everywhere from Maine to Alaska. You want the very symbol of racism against Black people to be accepted as a positive symbol of our history. A flag that I know has struck fear into the hearts of black friends of mine. I myself get sick at my stomach when I see it waving from some dumb asshole's truck or flying in someone's front yard. The Confederate flag should be compared to the Nazi flag. Both flags strike abject fear into the hearts of our fellow human beings. Germans should never be proud to fly the Nazi flag. Americans should never be proud to fly the Confederate flag.
Is that what the textbooks told you? also if your black friends fear a piece of cloth they need serious help.
Another thing about the swastika it was a symbol of peace before the nazi party used it, so what if they want to fly a flag its their right to free speech. This doesn't mean i condone neo nazi practices because the nazis along with slave wanting confederates were evil, not all german troops and confederates wanted these things.
My maternal great-grandfather was born the year after the Civil War ended. He had family members who fought for the North. My paternal great-great grandfather was a captain in the U.S. Army during the Civil War. It was a difficult thing to fight for the North where I'm from because slaves were being used for industrial work. They were shipped across the Ohio River from Kentucky to work in the indigo industry and on farms. For some people the American Civil War has never ended so imagine being a boy growing up after the war had just finished. So my great-great grandfather grew up in tumultuous times, but his family stayed true to their beliefs that all people are created equal. When my great-great grandpa was dying they brought him to our house. He got my room and I was supposed to sleep with some siblings, but I loved his stories and his life lessons so I would end up falling asleep in his hospital bed. He knew that racism was rearing it's ugly head again. It was 1962 and he saw what was going on and he was sad that racism had not gone away and he talked about what the Civil War was about for people who lived during that time and for the people he knew it was about fighting to make sure that fellow human beings were not considered chattel. His daughter was my granny and she continued to instill that lesson to me. I grew up around a bunch of terrible racists, but I never became one myself. So my lessons about the Civil War didn't come only from a textbook. RIP Paw Paw and Granny. xoxo You're doing a terrible thing here when you promote that flag and I can only hope that you will change in the coming years.
O holy hell AMA did you use books? Do you actually have non white friends? I'm not sure I can over look this!!! Our friendship maybe in jeopardy I'm curious if every time I ask an simple yes or no question if I will get a wall of text ? This could be fun I'm always amused when the "defense" of something turns into a personal attack. I'll try this again ... Did Jeff Davis say slavery was a positive for black people since they were under the supervision of a superior race?
Raven you get a wall of text because there are some things in this world that cannot be explained within five minutes or less. And about that Davis quote i'll have to check my papers on it....and there kinda is a lot of them so i'll get back to you on this but in the meantime here is Lincoln's first Inaugural Address given on the 4th of March 1861. I doubt that you'll actually read it but here it is. http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html
Touching story truthfully, forgive me but i believe a flag stands for more than what it is associated with, the confederate flag is a symbol that shows the will to fight for what you believe in. I do not condone any sort of slavery that is cruel. we are entitled to our own opinions.
I did not insult you I just presented my opinion that I had doubts that you would read it. And Amax, This right here is what gets my gut in a knot... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Like what Wrath said, I'm fighting for what I believe is right and you should not have the power to get in the way of my convictions, I am not spinning the history as you claim I am, I'm just telling it how it is nothing more. A smart man that I once knew told me on one occasion "People on an personal level are intelligent and have the power to do great things, however when in groups they become nothing more than wild animals when they live under their own ignorance." And you know, I've said countless times that history is not the story of events laid out in the order they happened it's the story of how we as human beings got to this point in time because history is not dead to the man who would learn how the present came to be what it is. You folks can believe what you want and say what you want about southern heritage that's fine, I am not going to force you to believe anything, I am not trying to fool anyone or tell anyone what's right or what's wrong but what I will ask of you is please consider doing your own research on this and to form your own opinion from what you have read. I'm no great speaker or anything but that is what I believe and I'm sticking to it so nobody is going to tell me anything different.
You're doing a terrible thing here when you promote that flag and I can only hope that you will change in the coming years. I'm doing a terrible thing? I don't believe that I am. And I don't think I'm going to change anytime soon. If you could see the documents, papers, and books, that I have read you would be amazed. And that story was touching...I wish my great great grandpapy was still alive oh the stories he would've told! Your a very lucky person to have been able to speak to someone that was born right after the war. You have earned a like for your story
I have done my research and I have learned from people who knew what happened. I'm lucky enough to be old enough and have relatives that lived to old age that were willing to tell the truth. I don't need to read papers and books of apologists that are trying desperately to spin gold out of pig shit. Slavery was always wrong. Always. The bottom line in the south is that they wanted their freedom and they wanted to protect state's rights because they knew slavery was going to be abolished. It's okay to love being from the south without aligning yourself with the Confederacy. I heartily embrace the good parts of my southern heritage. My accent insures that I'll never be able to deny being from the south. My ability to make biscuits and a perfect roux ain't a bad thing either. You are fighting an uphill battle here and I must admit that fact makes me happy. It's like a breath of fresh air when I see that the Confederate flag and gushing over the Confederacy are still not de rigueur even in the face of the blatant racism that we all know still exists.
I have done my research and I have learned from people who knew what happened. I'm lucky enough to be old enough and have relatives that lived to old age that were willing to tell the truth. I don't need to read papers and books of apologists that are trying desperately to spin gold out of pig shit. Slavery was always wrong. Always. The bottom line in the south is that they wanted their freedom and they wanted to protect state's rights because they knew slavery was going to be abolished. It's okay to love being from the south without aligning yourself with the Confederacy. I heartily embrace the good parts of my southern heritage. My accent insures that I'll never be able to deny being from the south. My ability to make biscuits and a perfect roux ain't a bad thing either. You are fighting an uphill battle here and I must admit that fact makes me happy. It's like a breath of fresh air when I see that the Confederate flag and gushing over the Confederacy are still not de rigueur even in the face of the blatant racism that we all know still exists.
I have done my research and I have learned from people who knew what happened. I'm lucky enough to be old enough and have relatives that lived to old age that were willing to tell the truth. I don't need to read papers and books of apologists that are trying desperately to spin gold out of pig shit. Slavery was always wrong. Always. The bottom line in the south is that they wanted their freedom and they wanted to protect state's rights because they knew slavery was going to be abolished. It's okay to love being from the south without aligning yourself with the Confederacy. I heartily embrace the good parts of my southern heritage. My accent insures that I'll never be able to deny being from the south. My ability to make biscuits and a perfect roux ain't a bad thing either. You are fighting an uphill battle here and I must admit that fact makes me happy. It's like a breath of fresh air when I see that the Confederate flag and gushing over the Confederacy are still not de rigueur even in the face of the blatant racism that we all know still exists.
Fighting for what you believe in does NOT make you a hero. Fighting for good things does. If you fight for slavery or racism, because you believe that there are superior and inferior races, you're a trash. If you fight for the idea of one and only one religion, because you believe that you are the best and the smartest and your religion is the only true view of the world, you're a trash. But if you fight for equality, tolerance, wisdom and peace, then you're a hero, no matter if you really believe in it, or not. btw. nice trips ama
That is unfortunately not how it works. A flag is a symbol, nothing more. What it stands for is what people perceive it stands for. On its own it's just a coloured piece of cloth, it has no independent meaning. With regard to the Confederate flag (in all it's versions), it was at best semi-suspect to begin with, and its use by various white supremacist groups since the 1960s has thoroughly pissed in the well with regards to its modern meaning. I guess it is theoretically possible to exonerate it as a historic symbol, but it will be a long and uphill battle, with little chance of success. If one wish to imbued the flag with any modern meaning (as opposed to see it as a strictly historical symbol), the flag will bring with it all the racism and hate it has stood for for the last two generations. As a historical symbol, it necessarily represent something that is dead and gone (the "Southern Cause", the CSA). If one wish for a symbol for a modern, extant phenomenon (e.g. "the South will rise again" kind of thingy), the choices are either to accept to be branded with the flags current perceived values, or to invent a new and neutral symbol to represent something the X-flag does not.
Actually, they did not want to protect state's rights. One of the reasons the Southern states seceded was because they could not bludgeon some of the other states into accepting the 1850 slave act. The secession was all about their right to impose their laws on other states. The "state's rights" as a meme is about as honest as CoS' religions status. I know, dox and all that jazz. Fortunately, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas were kind enough to elaborate a bit on exactly why the succeeded, so that we don't have to speculate: http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras2777/amgov/secession.html
