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Question on Scientology in Forums

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by FuzzyNavel, Sep 14, 2011.

  1. FuzzyNavel Member

    I know this forum is the last place to discuss religion, and Im not going to try to do that.

    Ive always been aware of the fact that scientology is a cult, rather then a religion (then again I think most religions are cults... anyways...) on a few forums I am a part of, they list scientology as a "religion" (the sites are "spiritual" in nature, and cover all religions), but as far as I know most people do not think of it as a religion.

    Whats your guys' take on some forums calling scientology a religion? (Im aware that you dont yourselves call it a religion, but im asking on what you actually think of other sites calling it such)
  2. I may be mistaken, but active WWP Anonymous regard the cult as a cult.

    Forums are free to address $cientology with whatever appellation they choose.
    • Like Like x 2
  3. LocalSP Member

    Most religious folks will call it a religion because they are afraid some other group might go after their belief system.
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  4. Anonymous Member

    Some here call it a religion and some don't.

    It don't matter to me.
  5. RolandRB Member

    They have a religious belief system so it is perfectly OK to call this cult a "religion".
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  6. It's all based on the writings of L. Ron Hubbard who first called it an exact science, "The Modern Science of Mental Health" which was completely debunked by actual scientists and Hubbard was facing medical malpractice claims for his phony claims of curing many ailments through his e-meter auditing.

    Hubbard instituted a Religious Cloaking Policy to change his bogus science to a "Religion" for protection against medical malpractice and to gain tax exemptions for his enterprise.

    Unfortunately for Hubbard, his Religious Cloaking policy was exposed revealing the fraud involved in changing his failed "Science" into a phony "Religion".

    Imho, it is clearly not a science and definitely not a religion merely set up to look like 1 per L. Ron Hubbard's religious cloaking policy.

    Scientology is an abusive, controlling scam created by a convicted fraud.
    • Like Like x 7
  7. jensting Member

    Are those the only two choices? Cult or religion?

    No, apparently not.

    So, what was the question again?

    Best regards

    Jens
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Anonymous Member

    $cientology is a cult by definition. Anyone stating otherwise is misinformed. That is Why We Protest.
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  9. Anonymous Member

    I couldn't give a fuck, personally.

    If I started worrying about what people on the Internet call things, I'd have no time to live my life.
  10. Anonymous Member

    At least you'd still have time to post about all the shit that you personally don't give a fuck about.
  11. Anonymous Member

    OP did ask.

    Anyway, there's an infinite amount of shit about which I do not give a fuck.

    It's a little information-filtering process that I like to call 'consciousness'.
  12. Miranda Member

    Stay on target. Whether or not we differ on the subject of what people on other forums call Scientology, we are here to oppose CoS. This thread's topic arouses strong feelings on both sides of the issue and tempts people into a discussion of semantics. Semantics is not irrelevant, but endless discussion of it is distracting from what we do agree on, and from actions we need to take. There are more productive discussions going on in other threads.
    • Like Like x 4
  13. Anonymous Member

    Yes, but is Scientology a religion?
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  14. Anonymous Member

    Good lord, productive discussion on WWP? Where?

    ;)
    • Like Like x 1
  15. FuzzyNavel Member

    Please dont think im trying to take attention away from "productive" threads. Its an honest question, because in the world of religious scholors its a debated topic. Im also asking here because im learning that this place is the best place to get proper information pertaining to Scientology, hence IMO this is the best place to ask.

    Im a part of hundreds of forums, with many different subjects, and the religious forums im a part of seem to be divided. Some have a scientology section, some dont. From my POV, if people see it on a religious forum they might get the idea that is what it actually is, and while I try not to sway peoples opinions to match mine, a "belief" that is concidered a cult by many, and debated as to its religious status is a bit misleading to be on a religious forum is it not?

    I guess im asking, because this site is the forefront of making sure the truths about Scientology are exposed, and IMO that would be places calling it a religion rather then a cult. Im not saying thats what you guys do, but so far, that is my impression, hence why I asked.

    Thanks for the responses so far
  16. Anonymous Member

    Please correct all the places calling it a religion rather then a cult, then please correct all the places calling it a cult rather then a religion.
  17. The straight answer is, it depends on:

    - your definition of 'cult',

    - your definition of 'religion',

    - and your opinion of Scientology.

    There is therefore no single unarguably definitive answer to your question.

    A more interesting set of questions to ask could be,

    - what (in law) is the religious / charitable status of Scientology in specific countries?

    - what would Scientology like that religious status to be, and why (e.g. tax implications)?

    - is that country correct in recognising Scientology as a religion or charity (if they do), and if not then what can we do to change their position?

    In my view it's more important to look at how governments define Scientology - because that has real-world implications (for example, in Scientology's finances, public image and recruiting) - than it is to look at how people on other internet forums define it.

    Although I take your underlying point that the words we use to describe Scientology matter - they do.
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Anonymous Member

    You don't have to dig too deep to find the majority of scholars that turn the discussion of terminology to use into a debate are on Scientology's payroll, to prevent the discussion from progressing into the nastier facts they think they can keep hidden.
  19. FuzzyNavel Member

    Oh... I see what you did there....

    In regards to the first 3 points, and the last point....

    That is my real quarrel with this. When you look up say, christianity, there is no debate as to if its a religion. Even "new" religions, such as metaphysics and wicca, arent hotly debated in regards to their religious status. So far from what ive found (and seen on here), its debated if its a religion or not. Here is a good link as to what a scholar thinks, but a general search of "is scientology a religion" comes up with contradictory and opposing opinions.

    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/kent/religion.html

    And that is my whole problem. Its hotly debated if its a religion, therefore it shouldnt be concidered anything ATM. But what makes me think twice, is that if im not mistaken (hopefully some one here can back me up), they do get there tax breaks for being a church.... So obviously in the eyes of some countries it is a religion. The link I posted talks about the debate between germany and the US.
  20. It varies by country, depending on that country's legal definition of 'religion', and whether that legal definition has been applied correctly in the case of Scientology.

    In some cases, such as Australia, these legal definitions being debated by the public and by lawmakers at the moment. So that's a good place to concentrate your efforts.
    • Like Like x 3
  21. Anonymous Member

    The academic definition of a religion is broad enough to include Marxism so Scientology qualifies. Even without the religious cloaking Scientology is a religion. Like some other religions, its adherents confuse religious dogma with scientific fact -- the statement "Scientology always works" is most definitely an article of faith.

    However, the Church of Scientology is definitely a cult.

    Likewise, it is far from clear that you can have any kind of Scientology organization that won't turn into a cult in order to avoid fizzling out. A lot of Hubbard and Miscavige's activities can be seen as changing the maze around to make it harder to see that there is no cheese. Without those systems of control people are likely to have an easier time seeing that it's all maze and no cheese.

    In short: everyone is right.
    • Like Like x 2
  22. FuzzyNavel Member

    Well, thats sort of where I stand. But ifs its a cult, yet still regarded as a religion, IMO that is still debated enough to not call it anything, except maybe a cult (which its teachings IMO seem to fit the definition better).

    Then again, the Romans called early christians a cult....

    I guess, im saying that if we cant all reach a certain consensus about it, it shouldnt be labeled as a religion IMO.

    Im asking because I want to question the forum for having such sections on the site, especially when its debatable as to its religious status, and especially when more evidence shows its more of a cult. But i wanted some insight from you guys, once again, seeing as you are probably the best source for info and opinions on this matter
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Anonymous Member

    Hugh Urban made a good point when he asked, essentially, "what authority gets to decide (what is a cult/religion) and why?
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  24. Forums don't matter. Question the government instead.
  25. Anonymous Member

    Bah! This time-wasting discussion, again.
    • Like Like x 4
  26. FuzzyNavel Member

    That is a good point, i guess like Lovelace suggested, you would have to go to each countries legal definition of "religion" and "cult", which im in the process of doing, seeing as people may never agree in this case....

    Another good point dude. But I tend to question everything LOL, even my own questioning...

    I appreciate the answers guys, I actually expected massive trolling/butthurt towards me, lol.

    If the MODS wish, this can be domed, but I wouldnt mind if this continued either....
  27. Anonymous Member



    this vid comes to mind
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Anonymous Member

    Good idea, a consensus where everyone agrees with me that it doesn't fucking matter.
  29. grebe Member

    I don't care if Scientology is considered a religion or not. I protest its demonization of psychiatry, its fair game tactics, disconnection policy, and stuff like that.
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  30. xenubarb Member

    Scientology is like an ogre. It has many layers. Ogres are like onions. Somewhere in the Scientology onion is a religious layer. Lower level Scilons firmly believe it's a religion. I don't know about those who've been in long enough to see beyond that one layer of religiosity.

    But, religion is probably 1% of the whole enchilada, until their practices are challenged. Then it's 100% religious.
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Miranda Member

    The imprecision of this question makes it more likely to start a fight than to shed light. Religion in what sense? In the eyes of the law? (Depends on the country.) In the eyes of other religions? (Take your pick.) In its own eyes? (Originally, no; currently, yes.) In the eyes of its members? (Probably. I can't speak for them.) In the eyes of WWP? (What eyes? Our diverse userbase reflects many views about this question.) In the eyes of other forums? (Who cares? People have a right to believe as they wish about this.)

    There is no need to call anyone to task about their language. Yes, language is important, but splitting hairs is not. I suggest that if you are interested in this question, read Hugh Urban's recent book, which offers a very intelligent, objective, documented, and thorough treatment of it. Or, move on to much more important questions.
    • Like Like x 4
  32. CarterUSP Member

    I agree with many here that the argument about semantics is unlikely to produce much consensus. People can make their own mind up. BUT, it's important to make sure people are aware of the facts:
    - scientology was created by a science fiction writer
    - scientology was originally put forward as a 'science', not a religion
    - Hubbard went to great lengths religious cloaking scientology to get the tax breaks
    - fair game, disconnection, xenu etc

    It's not recognised as a religion in the UK, I'm happy about that. But if people want to call it a religion then I'd like them to be able to call it a "Crazy money grabbing criminal abusive slave labour UFO space alien shizzle religion"
    • Like Like x 6
  33. FuzzyNavel Member

    Sry, so far, that hasnt happened. And unless you call trolls to make it happen, I dont think it will. And BTW, if you read I already said its ok if you feel the need to dome it, but so far, your assumption is moot.

    Good shit. I bow to you.

    That is basically where I was headed. Once again, good shit, and I thank you
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  34. Anonymous Member

    • Like Like x 1
  35. Miranda Member

    Nah. Just wait a little while. My post was a reminder to others not to get dragged into debating an oversimplified question about which we already know we disagree. There are more fundamental issues to discuss. Again, I direct you to Urban's book--and to lurk a lot more on this site, as the question comes up ad infinitum.
    • Like Like x 1
  36. Good advice! With respect to the "oversimplified question, where I find the OP failing is posing an "either/or" question that leads straight into a duality/dualism trap.

    The best posts ITT have suggested that 'either/or' is a counterproductive approach and that a productive way to examine such an issue is with a "both/and" strategy.

    From what I have seen, every time a thread about this question shows up, the issue is presented on the "either/or" merry-go-round, which goes nowhere, both quickly and slowly.
  37. FuzzyNavel Member

    I wasnt meaning for any debate, and if people do that that is their choice. So far its been quite mature, but As you stated, that could be that its "been there, done that blah blah" sort of thing, once again, why I said its ok for this to be destroyed.

    Thats perfectly fine. I wasnt asking for any real either or answer, and I would gladly welcome any other alternatives. IMO I cant think of any, and according to what you have said, in this situation, it actually is "either/or", marry-go-round or not. So thats my answer. Once again, if need be dome this thread.

    Thanks again

    @Miranda - Thanks for the book recommendation, ill check that out.

    IMO this was the best answer, sarcastic or not. The best thing is to try your hardest to show the truth.

    • Like Like x 1
  38. Anonymous Member

    I'm happy you got something out of that sarcastic answer. You wrote about half of it which I cut and pasted from your post because I am lazy and don't know how to type.
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  39. Anonymous Member

    The words are not mutually exclusive. As to their almost inherent inclusivity...
    • Like Like x 1
  40. Anonymous Member

    I have been to other forums with varying opinions. Discuss?

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