Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by mrfyde, Jul 3, 2009.

  1. mrfyde Member

    Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    TL:DR Broken glass had nothing to do with these Lisa McPherson autopsy photo's.

    A few months ago I asked a friend of mine who is a Medical Examiner to take a look at the autopsy of Flo Barnett (aka Marry Miller aka DM's Mother in Law) he returned with information that suggested that it was highly unlikely anything but suicide.

    Something seemed incomplete in the St. Pete Times' most recent article about Lisa McPherson. I would like to add that I normally do not comment on the Lisa McPherson case because I believe it has been settled, I am for the most part pleased with the result that caused years of scrutiny for the Church of Scientology, as well as a settlement that as far as I know was satisfactory to her family.

    The two things that stood out to me other than Mark Rathbun seeming to only implicate David Miscavige, and his admitting that he destroyed documents in the case to prevent a legitimate investigation. Both are things he would unquestionably have spoken to one if not many lawyers about sometime in the last 15 years, and would have known that the statute of limitations had expired for tampering with evidence. The two things that bothered me most about that particular article where:

    1) He mentions broken glass for no reason.
    2) The medical examiner had no comment when reached for questioning. And did not confirm or deny any of Rathbun's claims.

    I can only assume that 1) Rathbun may want to imply that a broken mirror had something to do with McPherson's condition. And 2) The medical examiner is not only smart but wants to move on from this case.

    The most common memory to me and others about the McPherson case was not that she died of dehydration, but the pictures of the body that seemed to many strange and unexplained injuries that from the original reports where called cockroach bites, or at least cockroach bites are commonly mentioned when talking about McPherson's death. Could Rathbun's claim of a broken mirror have caused those injuries to the body ? He did not go as far as to claim that but I saw no other reason to mention it unless it has something to do with the introspection run down process and for all I know it might.

    So a few days ago I wrote my friend who is a medical examiner and asked him if he would take a brief look at these autopsy photos and give us an expert opinion. I sent him these pictures:


    The SP Times article:
    Death in slow motion: Part 2 of 3 in a special report on the Church of Scientology - St. Petersburg Times

    and the wikipedia article on Lisa and asked him to take a look at both the "coroner's report review" section and "woods explanation of autopsy changes" section.

    Lisa McPherson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    with this question to him:

    I guess my question is :
    Do you see evidence from the pictures of injuries from :
    a) broken glass (or something similar)
    b) cockroach bites
    c) Both bites and glass
    d) Neither / something else or just gross dead people stuff.
    e) I can't tell much from the pictures.

    This was his reply to me it includes all the information about the question above. I did ask a few other questions but they do not have anything to do with this thread.
    The only thing that I was able to conclude from the pictures of Lisa being used to is that they where likely shown originally for shock value to get attention for the result of Scientology's insane medical practices. There is nothing in them that clearly shows cockroach bites but there could have been, and nothing at all in the above pictures that indicates broken glass from injuries from a smashed mirror.

    I will ad that I know of nobody at this time who has suggested that any injury occurred from a broken mirror or from glass. But having gone through years of news articles that interviewed Scientology spokesmen, I see nothing that would suggest that with new information surfacing about the mirror that some Scientology spokesmen would not try to at least imply that broken glass may have had something to do with her injuries. And I feel it is best to stay one step ahead wherever possible. This may be a tinfoil over reaction on my part but thought I would just put it out there.
  2. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    You need much closer examination to determine exactly what those lesions are. The medical examination found them consistent with insect bites either post mortem or shortly before death.
  3. stacycake2009 Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Windshield fragments, or some kind of plexiglas glass?
  4. Voltaire Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Rathbun knows what the scoop and is the main reason he's such a shit bag in my book. What happened to McPherson will probably not ever be known for sure, but no doubt in my mind that DM, Rinder and Rathbun know exactly what happened and how they subverted the truth and skirted the law.

    They're all criminals, period.
  5. lothar Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    WAT.... you are classic.
  6. whoever Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    I was kind of thinking that before you said it.

    I agree with the anon post above--a close-up inspection of the body is necessary to make an accurate evaluation. (Possibly a decent guess could be made with extreme close-up photos of the injuries.)
  7. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    I don't recall anything about broken glass, just the fact that they'd left a mirror in the room.

    Glass cuts look nothing like insect bites. Hmm, who to trust, the trained pathologist who did the autopsy, or some tinfoil-hatted anon with some low-res pictures who just heard a reference to a mirror and thinks he's blown the case wide open?
  8. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    marry me?
  9. AnotherMrPink Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    This thread makes me want to do some glass.
  10. mrfyde Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass


    I agree that investigation of the entire body would be needed for glass we could always look to see if it was mentioned in either autopsy, there where a few other pics as well, but I thought the pictures of the hands would be most important when talking about a person who was smashing a (I assume bathroom) mirror.

    And again I always wondered about the cockroach bites so that is equally why I asked. Just forwarding what I know. (Likely tinfoil)
  11. lothar Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    posting in dead horse thread.

    I thought MJ died, but let's do some more Beat It.
  12. stacycake2009 Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    I remember hearing somewhere that said she was hit by a car.
  13. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    In the court case, the pathologist testifying for Lisa McPherson's family compared insect bites from other dead bodies with the lesions found on Lisa's skin, and they matched.

    She was in a minor car accident, but she wasn't hurt in the accident. She took off her clothes and ran around naked as a call for help.
  14. mrfyde Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Yes a couple of weeks before hand.
  15. mrfyde Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Well, it seemed more important when I sent the information to the ME, maybe it looses some impact when he takes a week to respond? <shrug>
  16. Tenebrous Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

  17. stacycake2009 Member

  18. Anonymous Member

  19. stacycake2009 Member

  20. Anonymous Member

  21. Tenebrous Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

  22. fitch2000 Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    The answer is.......they let her die. They watched her die, all of them. Hey maybe if she had used the glass on herself (that they left in her room) it wouldn't have played out so long and caused so much damn attention.

    Maybe they wanted her dead? Maybe somebody did. Like whoever is in charge of getting rid of potential trouble.

    Ever notice how whoever is in charge of the church where a death occurs never knows the people involved were even scientologists? They start out denying and keep on.

    The only way we will ever know is if someone involved TELLS THE DAMN TRUTH. And we know their "church" teaches them early on with the Lying TR'S to lie, lie, lie. Attack, attack, attack never defend. I am so beyond disgusted by this "church." Wish it was end game now so I could watch Miscavige, Davis, Cruise, and all the other scum scurry around like the cockroaches they are.


    I feel better for getting that off my chest.
    Also goina jump in the pool and cool off. Happy 4th everyone. lol
  23. Tenebrous Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

  24. qwertyuiop1 Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Some of those (like under her elbow) look like ordinary bed sores. If youve ever cared for an elderly person you would reccognize those. the other sores dont however look the same (to me).
  25. POS Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    I wonder when the IV rig was put in her hand ? A little too late if you ask me.
  26. incog712 Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    No, she wasn't hit by a car. Her car was involved in a minor fender bender (It bumped into a boat trailer on a quiet Belleair side street off of S. Ft. Harrison Rd). She suffered no physical injuries from the accident and was only taken to the nearby Morton Plant Hospital for psychological observation as it appeared that she was suffering from a psychotic break. That or as some have suggested, pleading for help.
  27. Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    One way or another Scientology is completely responsible for her condition during her brutal stay at the Ft. Harrison Hotel. There are many stories of insect, rodent and unacceptable health conditions at this crown jewel of Scientology. These pictures are the end result of Scientology's insane introspection rundown and the administration of Hubbard "Tech" for 17 days of Hell on earth for Lisa Macpherson under 24 hour hour guard (supervision). Scientology caused this death and covered it up. The lack of proper medical care for their members is disgraceful. I can't imagine how anyone observing this horrific deterioration could simply continue to follow policy and not call for an ambulance during this extended period of 17 days. Rathbun is a snake who admits to comitting a horrible crime here more to discredit Miscavige than apologize for his own involvement. Many of Hubbard's policies are extremely self-serving and dangerous as is this entire cult.
  28. BigBeard Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    The broken glass happened either on the 28th or 29th, the logs are really bad about reporting things after the fact. The so called "Car Giver" log summary has this about the incident:

    Extracted from the referenced portion of the logs:

    "Free to leave any time she wanted.", my ass.

  29. Lorelei Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Her death is due primarily to Scientologists swooping in and pressuring her not to get the psychiatric care she obviously needed, possibly because DM is rumoured to have had a hand in her auditing, and definitely because scilons think any psychiatric care is BAD JUJU.

    She was forced to stay under Scilon care for 17 days and progressively declined in health while they dithered about getting her necessary MEDICAL care in addition to the already needed psychiatric care she needed before they spirited her off to their hive.

    Their arrogance and inhumanity towards Lisa's best interests caused her death. That they then drove her past several hospitals to specifically seek out a hospital with a Scilon on staff was the last straw, as she died on the way because they absolutely refused to let a non-cultist give her needed care.

    She was emaciated, bitten by insects, had bruises and bedsores, and was dehydrated. PERHAPS if they weren't scared she'd get the psychiatric care she desperately needed (and was begging for before they practically abducted her to "care" for her themselves) as well as the obviously necessary medical care, they MIGHT have taken her to a hospital for her physical issues and she would have survived. MAYBE.

    What keeps me up at night is that there may be other Scilons, right now, who have psychiatric issues that, obviously, Scientology is not going to help and may make worse, or who are being RPF'ed as punishment, and, because of this, their serious MEDICAL issues are going untreated until they either die, get too weak to protest the care or lack thereof that they are given by fellow cultists, or until they get offloaded from the cult due to age or "unfixable issues" that are supposedly ALL THEIR FAULT BECAUSE SCIENTOLOGY WORKS AND IT HELPS PEOPLE SO IT MUST BE THEIR FAULT, penniless and probably without any friends or family nearby to reach out to.

    How many more Lisas are there, right now, that we don't know about? How many Lisas have already died but the cult learned lessons from the Lisa debacle and has gotten slick at covering them up? We just don't know. If we're lucky, there aren't ANY Lisas out there right now, in mental and/or physical pain, whoa re being prevented from getting REAL help.

    If we're lucky.
  30. TypingChimp Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    ^^^This. Also, /bump.
  31. anonakatie Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    ^^^Cool story bro.
  32. TypingChimp Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    IANAL, and I certainly do not know what the laws were in Florida at the time of Lisa McPherson's death, but could he not also be an accessory to a degree of murder, and if so, am I correct in my understanding there is no statute of limitations for murder, should that be provable?

    Then again, maybe I suck cocks and am full of fail with this post.
  33. mrfyde Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    The only thing he mentioned that he cold have been prosecuted for was destroying information about her death.

    I don't know if it has been mentioned who exactly was taking care of her, I think Astra Woodcraft's mother was one of them. But I AFAIK Marty had anything to do with her supposed care.
  34. Herro Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    [ame=]YouTube - Derp[/ame]
  35. Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Bah! This is just nothing more than a wild goose chase.

    [ame=]YouTube - Annie Lennox - Walking On Broken Glass[/ame]
  36. BigBeard Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    How so?

    Glass being broken twice during the same incident is mentioned in the raw logs maintained by Lisa's so called "care givers", and in the summaries of "care" submitted to FSO by Lisa's keepers.

    See post #28 in this thread for an extract from the FSO summaries.

  37. Herro Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    YTMND - It's Mr. Derp!
  38. AnonyMary Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Well, you certainly didn't research well. First off, as others have noted here, the ME concluded they were insect bites, probably cockaroach bites. Secondly all Rathbun said ( which is stated in one of his video interviews) was that the people running the program on her 'did it wrong', including leaving a mirror in the room where she was held and how dangerous that could have been.

    5 other highly credible MEs across the country evaluated the cause of death on this case for the SP times and don't you think if there was glass involved, it would have been mentioned in the original and reviews?

    Five doctors agree with examiner in Scientology death

    St. Petersburg Times, published March 9, 1997
    CLEARWATER - Five pathologists say it is clear from key lab results that Lisa McPherson was severely dehydrated when she died after a 17-day stay at a Church of Scientology retreat.

    The Times interviewed the doctors after the much-publicized disagreement between the church and Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Joan Wood over how McPherson died. None of the doctors were previously familiar with the case.
    While many of their conclusions echo what Wood has said about McPherson's death, most of the doctors said they needed more information before they could say, as Wood did, that McPherson was unconscious for up to 48 hours before her death and did not have liquids for five to 10 days.
    Two of the doctors questioned the Church of Scientology's statement that McPherson "suddenly took ill" and its suggestion that a staph infection was a major factor in her death. [..]

    [..] Drawing from references and a list of board members and officers of the National Association of Medical Examiners, we solicited and found five pathologists with strong credentials who reviewed lab results from McPherson's autopsy. The five are:

    Dr. John Coe, who was the medical examiner in Minneapolis for 20 years before retiring in 1984. Coe is a past president of the National Association of Medical Examiners and is considered one of the world's top experts in post-mortem chemistry.

    Dr. Ed Friedlander, chairman of the pathology department at the University of Health Sciences in Kansas City, Mo.

    Dr. Michael Graham, chief medical examiner in St. Louis since 1989. He is secretary/treasurer of the National Association of Medical Examiners.
    Dr. Don Reay, who has been the chief medical examiner in Seattle since 1975.
    Dr. Edward Wilson, deputy medical examiner for the state of Oregon, and on the board of directors for the National Association of Medical Examiners. He said he has been a medical examiner for nearly 30 years.

    These and several other doctors were contacted by phone. Some agreed to participate; some referred a Times reporter to other doctors. The goal was to find independent sources who could not be accused of bias. None of the doctors were paid to participate.

    Before they gave their conclusions, none of the five doctors consulted for this story were told the case involved Scientology. Two of them asked about McPherson's caretakers and were told about the Scientology connection, but only after they supplied their opinions.

    All of the doctors were given the lab results that Wood used as the cornerstone for her conclusions in the case.

    Some asked for and received selected additional information from Wood's autopsy report. One doctor, Friedlander, asked for the full report and was sent a copy. He later provided a two-page report.
    All five doctors were asked to advance their own conclusions before being told what Wood had told reporters about the case. None of them previously had heard about the case.
  39. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Yup, if we're lucky. If they're lucky. If the poor bastards subjected to their practicing psychiatric and medical care without a license or a clue are lucky...


    Forced care by a &quot;Large male preferred&quot; on an adult person.

    Isn't that what got the deprogrammers into deep shit?
  40. Re: Rathbun, McPherson, and Broken Glass

    Aaaaah, but did anyone compare the insect bites with David Miscaviages dental records? I think we have blown the case wide open.

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