Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Kha Khan, Sep 17, 2009.

  1. Kha Khan Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder


    In my experience as an Ex and as a denizen of ESMB, this is very common among ex-Scientologists. I see this all of the time on ESMB.

    Focusing first just on Scientology public, and ignoring Sea Orgers and OSA types, for years people ranted delusional, discriminatory and abusive crap about psychs, invalidated and denigrated "illegal" PCs, felt superior to mere "wogs," told "acceptable truths" (i.e., lied), and defrauded and pressured their friends and family to load up their credit cards, mortgage their homes, and take out loans in order to buy auditing and courses, or raise their IAS level, or contribute to the Superpower building -- and, not coincidentally, pay the seller commission on each sale or contribution.

    And then you add in the Sea Org and OSA types who did far worse.

    And when did they leave? Only after they, personally, had been screwed. Only after they, personally, had fallen out of favor and been mistreated.

    Did they leave in protest when others were mistreated? No.

    Did they leave in protest because they refused to tell another acceptable truth? No.

    Did they leave in protest because they couldn't stand to see a lonely elderly woman be coerced / defrauded / induced to mortgage her home, her only large remaining asset and source of stability, to pay for auditing or contributions? No.

    Did they leave in protest because the ranting about psychs was delusional and evil? No.

    Did they leave in protest because denying "religious" services (i.e., auditing) to "illegal" PCs is morally reprehensible, or because even referring to such people as "illegal" PCs is disgusting? No.

    No, they left when they personally were harmed or mistreated.

    And then joined the critical or "ex" communities to a warm embrace, and sometimes to a hero's welcome, to complain about how horrible everything was.

    Well, ask yourself this, Mr. or Ms. Ex Scientologist: Who made it horrible? YOU DID. The policies -- the HCOPLs, the HCOBs, the book Introduction to Scientology Ethics -- didn't execute themselves. They were words written on page. They had no force, power, or effect until somebody chose to follow them. Until YOU chose to follow them.

    Nobody held a gun to your head. You could have waked out the door. Others did. You didn't. You chose to stay. You chose to comply. You chose to follow the policies. You chose to lie, and coerce, and do evil -- or fund and support others who did.

    FWIW, I tried to raise this issue in my ESMB post: Done to others? Done to self? Why we left.
    . The responses I received were somewhat less than satisfactory.
  2. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Wow. Not that I really expected anything less vile than this (actually I was starting to think Marty was going to just ignore Gerry forever), but it's still potent to see it said so plainly.

    What a jerk.
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    He's not finished.

    martyrathbun09 // September 20, 2009 at 3:12 am | Reply

    I am simply reiterating that to focus on ancient history is going to do nothing except provide a defense for Miscavige. To the degree folks focus on “policy” and “the whole damn subject is bad because it is inherent in it”, then you can kiss any sea change reform good bye. It is like the mind’s protection in Dianetics.

    You can knock yourselves out for the rest of your lives, and DM and the abuse will live on stronger than ever. Please see the Great Middle Path at

    It is no joke – regardless of how many WWPers want to attack it. The hard core anti-Scientologists are Dave’s best friends.

    Here’s another way to look at it. Had the Catholic lay movement that started making real inroads to making the Catholic church take responsibility for relatively recent, and documentable, widespread and institutionally covered up child molestation by priests, instead been driven by a bunch of rabid and irresponsible anti-Catholic twerps demanding the Catholic church address collaboration with Hitler, the atrocities of the Inquisition and burning books for a 1,000 years prior to that, they would have lost all credibility and not accomplished a damn thing.

    Mike Rinder Moving On Up a Little Higher

    Clearly, Marty Rathbun is a mentally conflicted narcissist. His self-serving, self-justifying nonsense overpowers any rationality & objectivity and earns him alot of self-inflicted stupidity. As the saying goes, “Denial is not a river in Egypt.”
  4. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Oh, please.

    Marty, you can compare the cult to Catholicism all you want, but it's still a cult founded by a very sick and dishonest man, rife with contradictions and reflecting his sickness and malevolence. If Scientology vanished overnight, nothing of value would be lost. Hubbard was not a great inventor of marvelous "tech". He was a sci-fi writer and con man who stole ideas from everywhere -- and got a lot of them wrong in the process.

    Catholicism, although imperfect, has given the world beautiful cathedrals, many hospitals and schools, etc.; even if one isn't a Catholic, those things have real value. What has Scientology given to the world that is of any objective value? Nothing (other than some lulz, I suppose). Anything worthwhile in LRH's "tech" has been done outside the cult too.

    The whole world can see that; only Scientologists can't. That is why you continue to encounter hostility from this direction. You can't just let it go and face reality. If you were struggling to come to terms with this, I for one would cut you slack, and I'm certain many others also would. But you aren't. You issue incorrect pronouncements about things, with (apparent) confidence. Not good.

    You got plain snookered, man. And you hurt a whole lot of people along the way. Quit trying to make that be something other than what it is. If you really dig auditing, fine. Do it. I don't care. If it helps people, so be it. But admit the plain facts of what else happened and stop pretending it was all one man's fault. No one person killed Lisa McPherson, or fair gamed Paulette Cooper, or raided Dennis Erlich's house, etc.. It was all y'all, and it was because you believed in LRH.
  5. Sponge Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    "Ancient history" Rathbun says.

    Orly? So there IS a history which is apparenlty not worth telling?

    If his and Rinder's "the knowledge which dare not speak its name" is according to him, trivialised as mere ancient history then why is a lot of it still directly impacting on certain ex-scientolgists and critics lives right now? Court judgements, Law suits, gag orders, ongoing intimidation, corruption etc.
    Some of these people, in real society, not in the cunt-arsed thumpy cult, were bankrupted, their homes, careers, livelihood, families and freedoms taken away. "Ruined utterly" as the Hubbard-approved tech prefers it. Of those that can somehow forget, some just simply don't want to - on principle.
    If it was all just mere "ancient history" then he should have no trouble telling us about it the next time he plans spending an evening churning out me-me-me stuff for his blog.

    I think his website needs to be renamed as: "Crawling on up out of the gutter".
  6. EyeOnSci Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    I think that MR is exhibiting some very disturbing characteristics. How he can not validate the pure hell that GA has gone through and how he continually spins stories to fit his preferred view of things is quite telling. He is as much a humanitarian as Hubbard ever was and I bet that he agrees with this! IRonic.

  7. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Where have I heard "There was this evil little man at the top who made us do it, it was all his fault" before?
    But maybe these debates should wait till it's actually mid 1945 and shouldn't begin when it's just 1942. The United States didn't start ideological debates with the Soviet Union back then either.
    inb4 "godwin! godwin!"
  8. auchraw Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    This is a very valid point. Scientologists leave the cult when they themselves are attacked or suffer enough personally to open their eyes.

    So why at that point do most of them reject the whole thing while Marty and his cronies remain enthusiastic about Scientology?

    I don't believe he left because he was being abused by DM - the idea is ridiculous. Marty is as big a thug as DM. He did not leave because of the abuses since he and especially Mike Rinder were responsible for them and he has not expressed a single word of apology or regret. I believe he made his move because he knows the writing is on the wall for DM and he wants to save a future for himself within Scientology, which is the only world he knows.

    He is not useful to the cause. The only valid reason for getting close to Marty Rathbun is to deal with him effectively when we need to.
  9. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Please could everyone who's quick to criticise Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder, and many many others who did terrible things in the cult please watch the following short video (it's in 2 parts):

    YouTube - Horizon - How Violent Are You? - Milgram Experiment - Pt1

    YouTube - Horizon - How Violent Are You? - Milgram Experiment - Pt2

    It's a modern repetition of an experiment that has been carried out many many times since the sixties, always with identical results. It shows how ordinary, decent law abiding people are actually MORE likely to commit horrendous acts under certain circumstances, than people of a more rebellious nature.

    In this experiment the act is murder.
  10. LocalSP Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    So what? He still beat people and is trying to gloss it over. Until he talks to the feds and tells them everything he knows and can prove it I will still look upon him as a no good cock sucking lying weasel.
  11. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    The point is that some people seem to see both him and Mike Rinder as some kind of devil's incarnate. As opposed to 2 people who are actually probably fairly decent guys, who spent almost all of their lives following the diktats of what they believed was the "one true way for all men to free themselves", only to leave when they found the subject they revered being destroyed by the group's leader.

    The experiments don't in any way lessen any crimes committed, but they do help provide a context, because some of the actions that the CofS has carried out over the years have been horrific.

    Based on the experiences of almost every Ex who's been out 10-15 years plus, there's an absolute consensus that it takes a good 10 years or so to fully unravel all the layers of conditioning, etc.

    Neither MR has been out long, and to expect them to suddenly change a lifetimes perspective is totally unrealistic. The fact that Marty Rathbun is prepared to discuss things as openly as he has (e.g. leaving a comment on his blog, that linked to John Attack's "A Piece of Blue Sky" (a book that's incredibly critical of Hubbard), is reassuring in itself. Not because he necessarily agrees with it (I've no idea what his views on it are), but because open discussion can only be a good thing.

    Marty Rathbun is causing immense damage to Miscavige's regime, and has every chance of playing a significant part in bringing it down. [People who simply say "go to the Feds", are being naive about the nature of the CofS], it's an international, corporately veiled, ideologically driven organisation. Taking it down is not solely a law enforcement issue. Just as the Allies ran extensive de-Nazification programs after the war, if someone like Marty Rathbun - i.e. a genuine opinion leader for many Scis - is offering a "kinder, gentler" Sci, where the tenets of the group "We of the Church..." actually have meaning, Scientology as it's believers knew it will still be there when the Church falls, and Scientology as it's critics knew it will be no more.

    If the group retains a genuine spirit of openness and integrity, it could even become something positive. Personally, I think that - as a whole - the "tech" is twaddle...and mentally dangerous twaddle at that; however that is as it stands now. Not every idea Hubbard had was bad, and nor was every idea he "imported" from elsewhere. It's clear that Marty is no unthinking fundamentalist, and is more than prepared to take good ideas from other sources too.

    To me that all gives a lot of hope, but expecting too much too soon is stupid: there're legal factors, there're political factors (i.e. not disenfranchising hardcore "every word Hubbard said was gospel" types), tactical factors, personal factors, psychological factors, and many many more.

    The best we can do in my opinion, is to keep doing our thing, ensure our eyes and ears are open in ALL directions, and not allow ourselves to fall prey to any kind of 2 dimensional view on the whole things.
  12. LocalSP Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    The MRs are dangerous because as adults they both knew what they were doing was wrong and yet they still won't admit it. There is a very good chance that if they were to talk to the Feds there would be charges filed against Miscavige and the CoS. That is not going to happen because if it did the Cos would crumble entirely leaving nothing for Rathbun to take over. He wants Miscavige ousted by the members so he (rathbun) can take control.

    If you think it will be run any differently you're as loopy as they are.

    They committed crimes because they believed in the tech, they still believe in the tech and they will continue committing crimes in the name of the tech.
  13. Anon1720 Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    (I really don't wish to import drama from elsewhere but I really must commend Kha Khan on his/her post over at ESMB addressing the less than satisfactory replies. Kha Khan's reply is just plain brilliant! and worth the read.)

    Originally Posted by number 6
    That seems to be human nature for the most part. Most people will put up with abuse of others until they themselves get hurt. Only a few people are brave enough to stand up for others.

    Originally Posted by Feral
    It's got some truth to it KK. I for one missed the boat on that, but it's not a criticism of scientologists as much as the human race in general.


    So while it's true, it's still leveled at the wrong target so comes across as infantile and superfluous as a criticism of Rathbun and Rinder or the other exes here.

    Originally Posted by Kathy (ImOut)
    I personally think the human race is lacking in compassion and empathy. Not 100% lacking, but lacking enough. If something isn't directly effecting us, we tend to turn the other way.

    This is just more excuse making. More avoidance of responsibility. More moral denial.

    "Oh, its just human nature." No, it was our nature. It was our choice.

    In my life I have, at various times, chosen to be, seriously, a Methodist, a Unitarian, a Buddhist, and a Scientologist. I have, at various times, chosen to contribute and support Methodism, Unintarianism, Buddhism and Scientology. It was only Scientologists that lied to people. It was only Scientologists that coerced people. It was only Scientologists that ordered disconnections, or followed such orders. It was only Scientologists that hired PIs to conduct "noisy investigations" of critics.

    I feel guilt and shame, and indeed well-deserved guilt and shame, only for my involvement in Scientology. So please don't tell me, "Oh, its human nature."

    "The human race is lacking in compassion." No, we were lacking in compassion. It was our choice.

    There are some people who deliver food to the homeless. Then there are other people who show a complete lack of compassion toward the homeless, refer to the homeless as "degraded beings," and treat them with utter contempt. The people who show a complete lack of compassion toward the homeless, refer to the homeless as "degraded beings," and treat them with utter contempt are called "Scientologists." We chose to join the latter group.

    Wrong target? Please. Who would be the correct target? DM and only DM? How convenient. How nice. What a crock.

    Who else did the immoral, unethical, fraudulent, coercive, indecent, ignorant, arrogant and otherwise objectionable things, or supported those who did? This is a board filled with ex-Scientologists. Are you really going going to tell me that the honest answer to that question is, "Oh, everybody but us?"

    You know who else did the immoral, unethical, fraudulent, coercive, indecent, ignorant, arrogant and otherwise objectionable things, or supported those that did? We did.

    And please don't tell me, "Oh, its human nature." Because at the same time we chose to do that crap, or to support and fund those who did, others chose to feed the homeless, or volunteer at battered women's shelters, or, yes, contribute to feed starving people in Africa.

    Some people chose to be compassionate -- to volunteer for purposes other than getting good pr; contributing money, food or tutoring those in need; etc. Another group of people chose to rant delusionally about evil psychs, and refer to non-members as wogs, and the less fortunate as "DBs," and think of themselves as "Homo Novis."

    And we all know which group we chose to join."
  14. TinyDancer Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    I think his point is that everyone who is anti-scientology (as opposed to anti the CoS), is helping Miscavige by slowing down the flood of new exes.

    I think the Gerry comment was separate.
  15. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    I get your point, but I think you missed his point.

    As I read it, I think he was saying that - if people wanted to get ACTION and REDRESS from the Catholic Church over the sex abuse scandals, they needed to focus on those issues (as they did). If they had tried to bring up all the other issues, that would have muddied the waters, detracted from their claims and caused many in the church hierarchy to think that their sex abuse claims were not as significant, or perhaps even as justified, as they in fact were.

    In other words, he wasn't making any claim about the nature of the Catholic Church or of scientology. I read it as a simple argument about effective tactics v. ineffective tactics.
  16. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Yeah, there's a lot of self-righteousness in this thread and on this forum.

    We're all capable of evil in the wrong circumstances.

    Thanks for this.
  17. auchraw Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    I disagree with most of this. In fact the word twaddle somehow seems appropriate. Let me try to put Marty into a more relevant context.

    An extremist cult which we might call Scazism is in retreat. Its numbers are falling, its revenues are declining. Its leader Adolf is in hiding somewhere, critics are well-informed and the media is now actively hostile. Some critics are calling for Adolf's arrest as a war criminal. There is no official action against the movement (yet) but the writing is on the wall.

    At this point several of Adolf's most trusted executives, the thugs he has relied on for years, turn up on the other side of the fence. Surprise surprise. They denounce Adolf and his brutality but never admit he relied on them to put it into effect. They continue to claim that Scazism is wonderful, the solution for all mankind's ills, and soon other Scazis are clustering round them ready to take over the movement as soon as Adolf is removed from power. They express no regret for their past actions; they do not mention them. It is as though they had no past.

    We know that normal human beings are capable of being conditioned to perform acts of cruelty and violence. It is not two-dimensional to require people to be responsible for their actions. MR has not become a good guy because he is now attacking his former boss. If anything he is more hypocritical and dangerous than ever.

    If we object to DM then on the same grounds we must object to Marty Rathbun. There is no hope that Scientology will be taken down by leaving the initiative to either of them.


    "The best we can do in my opinion, is to ... ensure our eyes and ears are open in ALL directions."

    This, certainly.
  18. amaX Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Rathbun hasn't left the cult. Rathbun is still a Scientologist so he's not doing anything toward making himself anything different than what he's always been.

    Rathbun is keeping Scientology working. He's making money off of Scientology right now.

    There is nothing good about Scientology. Nothing.
  19. Antagone Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Nonsense. We're all capable of evil in any circumstances it's just some of us choose not to do so or have the gall to try and dress our evil deeds up to try and justify them.
  20. amaX Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Bullshit. I don't believe that everyone is capable of pure evil.
  21. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Rathbun is all butthurt because Gerry Armstrong provided the materials showing that Marty Rathbun's model, Hubbard, was a conniving pathological sociopath liar. Judge Breckenridge said it well: "The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and the bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder LRH. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background, and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile."


    Gerry explained well why the settlement he agreed on in the 80s is unconscionable: The cult kept smearing him after the settlement.
  22. Ogsonofgroo Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Excellent post! Exactly imho.

  23. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    There is so much wisdom in this post. You give me hope for Chanology.
  24. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    I didn't realise you had walked in their shoes. 30 years in a vicious cult and being physically assaulted and mentally abused, were you?
  25. mrfyde Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Okay, how do you read it? who gave who reparations ? At first I read it as GA received reparations from the cult (meaning something he wanted) and then decided it was not enough and pressed the issue.

    Then I read it He got fair gamed and didn't deserve what he got.

    Then I read it GA gave to the cult something as a reparation for his mistake.

    I am not up on the details of his case what do you consider those reparations MR is talking about to be ?

    As for the first part do you also read that as "If people just stopped criticizing the cult, people would leave, "

    or do you see it as:

    "there is so much tinfoil out there, that when people on the inside see the crap being spoken by moonbats they stay instead of getting all the facts the outside has to offer."

    Or do you think it is intended double speak that can be read either way the reader wants to take it?

    None of the above is also an option.
  26. Antagone Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Of course we're all capable of it. I mean I could break into a nursery and stab ten babies to death and that would be pretty damned evil.

    My point is that even though we are all capable of such acts, we choose not to do them. I know you mean that the fact most people would recoil in horror from the idea of carrying out a deed like that means they're not capable.

    We're pretty much saying the same thing but coming at it from different angles. I just give people more credit for making the right choices, that's all.
  27. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Not if they were made of sugar.

  28. Antagone Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    I think that's a bit insulting to exes to be honest. Using that argument to absolve Rathbun tends to denigrate the people who got out the moment they saw dodgy stuff going on, or the folks who left and took responsibility for their own actions.

    Rathbun's not stuck in Gold Base any more you know, he's out and he's free to do his own reading.
  29. TinyDancer Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    I don't understand his comment about Gerry. Nor do I like it.

    Re the first comment, I think he's saying that if we want to get as many Scientologists away from the CoS and DM as possible, then we'll be more effective if we don't make them also jump the barrier that is criticism of Hubbard and the tech. That's all.
  30. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Yes, it's what she means, and I agree with her. Not everybody is capable of evil acts. You need to give more credit to people's innate personalities.
  31. Antagone Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Uh, but I was. That thing which kicks in so we choose not to do something evil?
  32. TinyDancer Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    My point is more that, under extreme duress (and I do mean extreme), we are all capable of doing things that would normally cause us to recoil in horror. Until we've been tested in those kinds of conditions we don't actually know how we would perform under duress. That should keep us humble, IMO.
  33. Herro Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    so wait, which one of these guys was the one that did the thing with that thing at the donkey show in tiajuana?
  34. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    That was MR
  35. EyeOnSci Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    So, let's see. Children born and raised in the cult, still saw the evil and wrong doing and despite disconnection, have left the cult; because they saw the truth. MR joined as an adult and he cannot see the truth? Bullshit.

    My impression is that MR is a narcissistic sociopath.

  36. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    I don't believe it's so much that Marty Ratbun cannot see the truth, but more that he spent a great deal of his life in the cult in an executive position and he doesn't have much to show for it now that he's out.

    I think MR wants some major payback in the form of compensation & recognition for his contributions in Scientology. The same with Rinder who left an executive position to sell used cars for a living.
  37. BusinessBecky Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    MR will not concede history, and thinks we're mentally ill without Scientology.
  38. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Usually the case with narcissists who have to hit rock bottom before they realize they fucked up and need help.
  39. Random guy Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    Gents, a thought:

    Rathburn and Rinder where the main sources behind the St. Petersburg Times exposé, an exposé that really, really hurt scientologys image. Now, the are being fair gamed by the cult. I would say we can have some nice wins by exploiting the hamfisted attempts at fair gameing. Except for satisfying moral outrage, what do we have to gain from attacking R & R?. By spending all our time discussing whether they are crocks or bandits, whose campaign are we furthering?

    There will be plenty of time to deal with R & R after the cult has gone belly up. By that time things may have changed quite a bit.
  40. Anonymous Member

    Re: Rathbun Talks about Mike Rinder

    It seemed to me that the general thinking was that the R's might need to have their memories joged a little. They both have plenty of opportunity to help the people that are still in the camps. They may need time to dig them selves out of their own mental traps. If they wish, they can just ignore the critics. Otherwise maybe they could enlighten us about what their feeling are instead of being offended by questions like as if their still tied down by all that tech.

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