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Request to Hilary Clinton - The Persian Gulf.

Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by JohnDoe, Jul 24, 2009.

  1. atmasabr Member

    I have a better idea.

    How about the immediate and unconditional release of the political prisoners in Iran?

    And all that other decent stuff Karrobi is asking for, too.

    Then we can talk this Persian Petition.
  2. If I was Clinton, and I were afraid that I would piss off Arabs if I called this one place Persian Gulf on the one hand and piss of Iranians if I called it Arabian Gulf on the other hand, I would go ahead and call it "The Gulf" and I would be rather satisfied with myself.

    Sure people called different places different names through out history. And it probably should be up to the Iranians and the Arabs to decide what to call that bloody piece of water. Until they can settle their disputes, I personally think it's appropriate not to pick any sides and just call the damn thing the gulf. If the arabs want to challenge Iran or something like that with this silly argument, who am I to say anything about that...

    As for the reason I am in this forum, I am not supporting Iranians over Arabs or any one nation/ethnicity/religion/etc. over another. I am here because I support human rights over dictatorship. So issues regarding Iranian/Arabian national identity and the geopolitical shadows thereof are irrelevant to me. So I think from now on, I will follow a convention put forward by another poster: I shall call it, gulf of pig-humping-zionist...
  3. atmasabr, have you ever actually asked an Iranian what we think about this issue?

    If you don't like this thread, you don't have to read it.

    It's not about sensitivity, it's about facts. The name is The Persian Gulf, this has been argued and agreed many times in the UN, and the American government agreed to call it The Persian Gulf. The people who want it changed to The Gulf or The Arabian Gulf are the Arab nations.

    Of course this is not the most important issue at the minute! But it doesn't stop it being important.
  4. Jakomeyu Member

    its "dokdo" but other than that, good point
  5. I am Iranian, and have just returned to Europe from Iran.

    Two weeks ago when both Clinton and Obama used the term 'the gulf' which was reported in Iran, everyone was so upset and angry - believe me this is a very important issue to Iranian people. In every taxi, everywhere people were talking about this, for days it was the only conversation, they were so sad and felt so betrayed by the American government. Obama is the first president to use 'the gulf' instead of 'The Persian Gulf'. Why have you done this? This is such an insult to the people. This is politics.

    It is not right to change the name of any place,land or sea anywhere, just because you need the money, or want to keep people happy. If you need money and respect, then please support the Iranian people, not the politics of a failed regime, or our Arab neighbours who have longed wanted the name changed from the Persian Gulf.

    The name is the Persian Gulf and that is the only name it should be called, so please tell us when you use the term 'the gulf' which gulf you are referring to - where it is?
  6. I had booked my ticket before the election, and then when everyting happened we were really quite fearful of going, and actually would have changed it, if I could.

    The airport was so quiet! I couldn't believe it, but more than that everyone was so nice and polite to me, and said 'welcome to Iran'.

    I was not in Tehran, and in the time we were there, I heard of protests, but because I knew I was going to come through the airport again Ididn't join them. I was very careful who I talked to, but there was so much tension all the time. There were soldiers everywhere all the time, at every crossing - so visible.

    Everyone the whole time, talked about the economy and how expensive everything is, they try to hold on to the money in their pocket - for it is now worth so little.


    I sense that everyone wants change, they are ready for it, but they need the support of the outside gvts. People were so disappointed that some countries sent their amabassadors to the inauguration - that made people angry. (as did the ref to 'the gulf')

    I hear more about what is happening outside of the country than when I was inside. I didn't know what was happening in other cities.

    I was in Iran last year - this visit was so different, tension, fear, depression, worry all so strong now.

    I was very nervous the whole time I was there, I was worried about coming through the airport again, but it was fine, no problem.

    I don't know what has happened others, but Thank God everything was ok for me.
  7. Glad you are safe from your visit to Iran and the Persian Gulf :)
    ;)
  8. maybe by air...to the west- major cities all have airports
    theirs loads of ways in and out
    heck--- there twice wekly express train from Istanbul via Ankara
    60 dollars each way!!!

    Iran hasnt closed its borders yet
    yet----unless they go for marital law

    ;)
  9. if it's all about politics why don't you call it the iranian gulf?
    I'm not iranian and I do not really understand all this fuss. The USA vs Iraq war has always been referred to as simply The Gulf's War.
  10. Because the name of the body of water is The Persian Gulf!

    (It was called the Persian Gulf before 'Iran' existed, the name Iran is a relatively recent term - compared to Persia)

    The name goes right back to Cyrus the great and was recorded in Perspolis as The Persian Gulf, and this is the name that has consistently been approved in the UN as what it should be referred to.
  11. redheads continued

    of course, I know that. What I don't understand is where is the political insult in calling it just gulf! Gosh, how many gulfs are there in the region?
  12. An empty debate...

    Just get over this linguistic dispute already!

    Both 'Persia' and 'Iran' are quite ancient words, going back to more than 2500 years.

    Persia comes from the word 'Parsa' (literally 'borderland') - this was the name for an Indo-Iranian tribe and their land - roughly where the current 'Fars' or 'Pars' province is located. Even the language is called 'farsi' or 'parsi' (I don't know which version of the name is correct, but the one with 'f' seems arabicized for me, since the Arabs cannot pronounce 'p').

    Iran comes from the name 'Aryana' (the land of Aryans ['noblemen']). This was a name that was used to denote the whole area of the Iranian plateau, since the different but related tribes, such as Persains, Medes, and others, all considered themselves 'Aryan'. This name was in use since the earliest dinasties of the Persian Empire (and even before, see the Gathas of Zarathushtra). While the Greeks called the empire "Persian", stressing its founders and leading group, it was 'Iranian empire' for its inhabitants. But just for similar historical inconsistencies, you don't call Italy "Roman Republic", just because it traces back its roots to the "Roman Empire" !!!

    It is clear that westerners (incl. me) like to see the word as they learned from history books - but in some places, history books can be wrong, or simply incomplete. If you studied foreign languages, you likely faced many examples of that. And as for country names (if we turn back to that), China isn't 'China' in its own denotation, but 'Han', Germany isn't 'Germany', but 'Deutschland' ('people's land' and not 'germans' land'), and Greece isn't 'Greece', but 'Ellada' (='Hellas'). Even Cyprus isn't pronounced as [*seiprous], but rather [*keepros], by the same way Cyrus was actually Kurus' [=*Kooroosh in Engl.]. And I could just continue with the examples...
  13. ella Member

    There is a tendency in Arab and some Muslim countries to call it Arab Gulf, especially in Saudi Arabia and UAE. . I know that couple of times Iranian delegations got out of some international conferences because of that. I also have read that Ahmadinejad got bad publicity among Iranians when he named "Persian Gulf" a "Gulf" during the recent Islamic conference in the Gulf.. Furthermore calling it "Arab Gulf" or even "the Gulf" means taking sides in that dispute. And no, Ray Murphy, you are wrong. The matter will not disappear because if current government become dislodged, Saudi Arabia and UAE will try especially hard to name it Arabic Gulf. It has nothing to do with current Iranian government but everything to do with prestige.

    Btw I always laugh when some people from Saudi Arabia or UAE are saying "but the name is not important, we are all brothers so why these people are trying to call it Persian Gulf?" because you see converse of that question may be "if the name is not important why do you try so hard to make everybody to call it "the Gulf" or "Arabic Gulf"?

    @ Ariss Guest

    You are mixing two things in your examples - naming of the countries and naming of the geographical entities. You have country named Deutchland in German and the same country is called "Germany" in English, "Germania" in Russian or Allemagne in French. On the other hand you have geographical entity "kavkaz" which is "Caucasus" in English, "le Caucase" in French and similarly sounding name in Arabic. So you are not right. Plus some of the naming is translation from original language and some of it is historical. With Persian Gulf it is the historical naming but as a westerner it is not you who are stressing the naming of the gulf as Persian, it is the Iranians. They are not westerners, like you are. You also said that some of the historical names are wrong - true, but the decision about the naming of geographical entity in question is not up to you. You, as you said before, are westerner and should not change historical name which was agreed by the original inhabitants. Because, you see, the name "Persian" is older then the name "Arab."


  14. And prehistoric human was there before that so it should be called The Cro-Magnon Gulf. A name is nothing more than a marker, pointer a way to convey or in this case not convey a geographical place to the ever destructive human race. It is yet another ridicules barricade imposed by the humans to quarrel about yet another trivial difference.
    no wonder this part of the world seems so skewed to hatred when they can't even agree on a name. The Gulf for everyone, The Persian Gulf for Persians, and The Arabian Gulf for Arabs. Perspective and point of reference folks, it’s that simple just a name.
  15. Visionary Member

    And if Iraq wants it changed to the Sumerian Gulf?
  16. Or if the Christians get involved as it is speculated that this is the Garden of Eden...

    The Eden Gulf
  17. I think we should rename the Gulf of Mexico the Cuban Gulf. And the continent of North America should be named "That Place that Isn't Russia". Maybe we can name Alaska New Russia.
  18. You people are missing the entire point. It is not the name, it is the known insult delivered by changing it. Everyone in the region knows it is an insult, and Clinton's job is to know these things.

    For the Americans in here, you making light of this is like someone laughing at if you got pissed because a Russian spit in your face and called you an American Dog. You'd be pissed, and you'd be doubly pissed if people who were supposed to be your friends laughed at you and mocked you because you were pissed.
  19. Sticks and stones... but a name come on, so it would be ok for a jew to spit in your face just don't call it The Gulf
  20. Visionary Member

    I wasn't making fun of it.
    I was trying to make a valid point that it's somewhat fallacious to be angry about Arabs wanting to give it their own name, on the basis that Persians had named it long before them. Because their were and possibly are other civilizations with older claims on it.

    As for the shortening of it as an insult, I still stand by the fact that it's ridiculous to be upset for someone leaving off "Persian".
    It's something that is very natural to do, especially in America.

    Now if Hillary is doing it on purpose, then she should be blamed for doing so.

    On the other hand, if that is the case...one has to consider that there are a lot more Arab countries than Persian ones and so I think it would be understandable for a diplomat to chose the name that upsets the least amount of people, especially when she is talking to an Arab nation.

    I know that may not sit well with Iranians, but Iran is only one issue to the US government. (and of course these Arab countries have been friendlier to the US than Iran has been of late, so it makes sense that she might accommodate them.)

    Oh and if a Russian spit in my face it would probably make me sad.
    I'd wonder why they felt the way they did and possibly try to figure it out.
    Although it depends on who it was.
    If it was some big scary guy I'd just get the hell out of there, lol.
    On the other hand I would probably laugh about it a lot too afterward.
    Mostly just because of how unexpected it would be.
    (we get a ton of Russians and Ex-Soviet bloc young men and women around here
    ((well at the beach anyway)), looking for summer jobs and most of them seem pretty nice.
  21. Okay for a Jew to spit on my face? What? Firstly, no, it wouldn't be okay, and two, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

    Are all the basij in here trolling to see if their DDoS attacks the past few days had any effect, or what?
  22. ella Member

    You do, and some of them are laughing their head off talking about amerikans.
    I don't want to be impolite but that is common.
    You see they are also laughing because you don't understand. It is evident from what you have written above and I think it would be very difficult to explain. Particularly that I know that some Americans can burn down an American flag and other US citizens would not do anything about it. Some would even laugh.
    It is different view point from your own, different way of looking at things,
    That is why sometimes some Americans or westerners have so much trouble to understand why for Iranians naming Persian Gulf is an important thing or even how they or people in the Middle East are thinking. I think that Russians or Chinese could have less trouble to understand Iranians. I thought it is not so but now reading your answers I have changed my mind.

  23. Awe shucks ella We ugly Americans aren't really that ugly we as you stated have a whole different view of the world and in my opinion a silly presumption that everyone understands Americans at face value. Yes we are presumptuous, arrogant and often times loud and rude, but always loyal to a fault. Americans really don't understand why the all hatred. Live and let live, be free and prosper is my mantra. For the most part we don't even care who is in charge as long as it does not interfere with our personal livelihood thus our personal freedoms. But don’t be mistaken we as a culture, full well know, what it means to be free and what it price must be paid to attain and keep such. I personally would lay down my life in a second if I thought it was the right thing to sacrifice, to keep my Country free of tyranny. This is what makes us the same.

    I almost have to laugh sometimes with all the anti us rhetoric as I stated previously Sticks and stones… can’t hurt me. But the positioning and idol threats are indeed amusing to me at least, if warranted the US could wipe out these gnats all before breakfast and without even getting dressed.
  24. I think there are non-Americans in this thread, pretending to be "ugly Americans" for division and propaganda's sake.

    Those tactics have become so old and worn out.
  25. ella Member

    unreg


    Sorry, I was just frustrated that sometimes some people don't understand how important the names are.
    Even in 21 century.

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