School shooting response

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by meep meep, Jun 5, 2014.

  1. meep meep Member

    Don't just hide. Remember to bring pepper spray. Wait until the guy re-loads and jump him
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  2. It bewilders me why it is when some idiot shoots up a place that they want to take the guns away from the people that didn't do it.
    This message by Johnny_Reb_1865 has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  3. White Tara Global Moderator

    In many instances, the authorities penalise some, with their legislation to protect people from the worst that society has to offer. Granted I was born without the right to bear arms, so I cant know what it is to lose that right. But the horror of end to end massacres of innocent people is going to see a pendulum shift over in your part of the world, get used to it.
  4. You don't know what's it's like to lose the right to own guns?
    Just ask the jews.
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  5. Ann O'Nymous Member

    You are quick to show your partial vision of the world, aren't you ?
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  6. The memory of the Cafe Racer shootings is still fresh here. That took place near the other big university in the area. I'm glad these students had the presence of mind to take the guy down before he did any more harm.
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  7. tinfoilhatter Member

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  8. tinfoilhatter Member

    Q: What is the tax on making an NFA firearm?

    The tax is $200 for making any NFA firearm, including “any other weapon.”
    A 500 dollar lathe will pay for itself. All it takes is scrap metal, and skill, and you can turn out good quality firing pins.
    Guns are a 600 year old technology. furthermore, unlike the rest of the world, there are a lot of skilled metal workers, machinists, and tradesmen that do make firearms as a hobby. Outlawing guns will not make them go away, but will make unregulated gun manufacture a terrible new economy.
    Now, plenty of European nations do allow fire arm ownership. they also heavily regulate firearms. The problem though, is they also have ready access to good mental healthcare, so its hard to determine if the gun control, or the health care, is what keeps the mass shooting low.
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  9. White Tara Global Moderator

    Nope, our govt many moons ago betrayed the mentaly ill by kicking them out of institutions (to honour their rights) then liquidated all the real estate. Our mental health care is in total disarray. Yet with no gun rights, mass shootings remain at the minimum.
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  10. What country are you in?
  11. Random guy Member

    Same here on Scandinavia.
  12. White Tara Global Moderator

    I'm from Neverland and my real name is tinker bell :)
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  13. Did you do it with Michael Jackson?

  14. White Tara Global Moderator

    Which time? ;)
  15. How old were you the first time you did it with him?
  16. Random guy Member

    I'll speculate a bit (no dox) on why gun crimes are lower in Europa than in the US:

    - Crime in general is lower in Europe. This probably reflect less social and economical differences, the result of wealth distribution. Crime is generally higher in the southern parts of Europa, which is also the countries with the greatest social differences and least wealth distribution.

    - Gun control is tighter. While guns are actually very common in some places in Europe (Switzerland and parts of Scandinavia having higher numbers of guns per capita than the US), having those guns usually means having to apply for a licence for a sporting or hunting gun, and to buy a safe to keep it in.

    - Due to mandatory gun safes and strict regulation on sale, even between private persons, illegal guns aren't easy to come by in Europe.

    - While guns can be common in Europe, the gun scene is dominated by bolt rifles and shotguns for hunting and low calibre sports guns, rather than large calibre pistols and high capacity long-guns.

    - Social control is far tighter in Europe. Unlike the US, you can only to a very limited degree move away from your past in Europe. If you want to leave a police file or mental health file behind, you will have to relocate to a new country, but unlike in the US, that also means having to learn a new language and culture.

    The result of all this is that fewer people are likely to commit mass murder, and those who are will usually be mentally ill people that the state already is keeping an eye on. If you have a history of mental problems, you won't be able to buy firearms in Western Europe.

    That does not mean no-one will be able to slip through the cracks, but it will requite a whole lot of planning (see e.g. the Utøya massacre in Norway), a lot more than mentally ill people are usually capable of. Spur-of-the-moment shootings is near impossible unless you'll settle for a hunting rifle.
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  17. White Tara Global Moderator

    I was 85 and a half, it was during his rarely spoken of but insatiable little ole lady phase ;)
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  18. It was little spoken of , although the glow surrounding the little old ladies afterward as they stroked a single glove, souvenir of the tryst, seemed to say it all
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  19. Quentinanon Member

    The scientology front group, CCHR used to keep stats on closing mental hospitals. This did that from the 1970's through the 1980's. What they achieved was the release of thousands of people into society who had little grasp on reality and could violently react to non-threatening circumstances. (schizophrenics)
    I think background checks for dangerous mental health problems as a qualification to firearms purchase is a good idea. Before CCHR, it was unnecessary. After CCHR, it is.
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  20. Quentinanon Member

    Actually, most European countries do allow firearms ownership, but all regulate it more than most places in the U.S., with perhaps the exception being Switzerland.
  21. Random guy Member

    Switzerland too has stricter regulation than the US, if not as strict as is common in Europe:

    People with criminal or mental illness won't be able to buy guns. Switzerland being a small and well controlled society, a student with mental issues will be registered by the school system and the the note picked up and find it's way into the public records. The typical person doing a US-style shoot shoot up thus won't have access to guns. The same person can't just move to another city to escape the note, nor cross the border to buy a gin in a different country. As a foreigner, you can't walk off the street and buy guns anywhere in Western Europe.
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  22. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    The fallacy of the mental illness restriction is how will we define mental illness? A need for medication? A large percentage of USAfags are on antidepressants. The Virginia tech killer was truly crazy and this had been noted by several people including a psychiatrist but he was still in college and living on campus. The kid that shot up Sandy Hook was diagnosed with Aspergers which is benign. No doubt he should not have had access to guns and should not have been taught how to shoot by his mom and was clearly crazier than just Aspergers. Keeping dangerous people from guns isn't easy in the US.
    Switzerland sounds contained enough that it might work there. All voting men have to have a gun, yes?
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  23. OTeleventy Member

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  24. Random guy Member

    You are undoubtedly right about the problems of keeping crazy people away from guns in the US. In the Sandy Hook case, the guy was obviously under-diagnosed. I don't know the particular circumstances and don't know why the school or his parents hadn't picked up his illness.

    I'd like to believe that had he lived in Europe he would have been caught by the system and received help. European societies are far from perfect and each country have their own problems, but mental illness we seem to spot and treat better than over in the US. I believe it has to do with there being a NHS, so that people are used to share their problems large and small with the state to begin with.

    Almost 10% of all Swiss have an assault rifle at home as part of the national defence. These are controlled and the mode of safe-keeping is inspected regularly. Another 10% or thereabout have semi-automatic rifles.

    I'm not a Swissfag, but I don't really think so. At least here in Scandinavia you can vote even if you have mental problems, but you can't own a gun. I guess the rationale is that voting won't kill people outright. People with criminal records, even those currently serving time are allowed to vote.

    Almost 10% of the Swiss have an assault rifle at home as part of overall defence. These guns and their ammunition are subject to control and inspection. It is the state's property after all.
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  25. What does that mean?
  26. tinfoilhatter Member

    TL rant!!

    Define "assault rifle". Part of the severity of the problem in america, is gun ignorance on both sides of the debate. there was a youtube vid done a while ago by an elderly man from the NRA, that was done for 2 reasons:

    To demonstrate that the 7.62 was not a very powerful round

    its a lulzy video if you like Gallagher...

    And to show that some semi automatic guns can release more rounds per minute, with a higher accuracy.

    For example in america, an AK47 may be illegal because it has too many foreign parts. If you replace those parts with domestic parts, not only will it become legal, it will also be more dangerous, as it will be less prone to jamming, have a reduced kick, be more accurate, etc etc. While still not being classified as an assault rifle.

    From my understanding, putting a bayonet rung on a gun turns it into an assault rifle, so if i have a black powder musket, with a bayonet, it then becomes an "assault rifle". Granted, the black powder gun generally has a lot more power then then 7.62, but it has a slow rate of fire.

    Part of the problem is that the NRA has become a political organization. It used to be more about RESPONSIBLE and SAFE gun ownership, not just a lobbying group.

    Then there is this

    Part of why these shootings get blown out of proportion, is that there is a jobs program going on. There is a lot of surplus armor and guns that the pentagon needs to get rid of, so there are grants to sell these to police departments for the SWAT teams. However, in order for PDs to have a swat team, the tax payer needs to be CONVINCED that there needs to be a swat team, which is why all these incidents are being blown out of proportion.
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  27. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    I don't think the murder of the children of Sandy Hook was blown out of proportion. The murder and injuries at a college campus in Seattle isn't overblown. The Virginia Tech mass murder was not blown out of proportion. These all involved planning and weren't spontaneous acts.
  28. tinfoilhatter Member

    School shootings while not common, are not new to this country either.

    Note, the above link does not include the gang violence in the schools, those are somehow classified differently.
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  29. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  30. tinfoilhatter Member

    The disturbing thing about the wikipedia article, is that it goes back to 1750. The cases were rare, until 1970. something/things happened in 1970 onward to make the violence problem in the schools worse.

    Its not so much the guns, as there were virtually no regulations until the 1930s. In fact, bombs were mentioned in the wikipedia article for several incidents.

    But look at the number of incidents. something is going on, and once identified, a proper solution can be determined.
  31. Random guy Member

    I the Swiss case assault rifle mean a SIG 550, the Swiss army weapon:

    I guess if we want to be strict, the SIG 550 is a battle-rifle rather than an assault rifle. The ammo is the Swiss 7,5 x 55 G11, which I suppose is comparable to the 7,62 x 51 mm. The old NATO round packs plenty punch. It is commonly used for hunting moose in Scandinavia. A round that can kill a half a ton animal is undoubtedly dangerous, even with a full metal jacket.

    In Scandinavia, the ban on assault weapons means a ban on anything that can generate full auto fire. The term "assault rifle" is an English term. It does not exist in my language, hence there's no ban on them as such, though automatic fire is banned, as well as high capacity magazines.
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  32. Quentinanon Member

    Scientology, operating as CCHR, went to work on shutting down mental hospitals, putting violent, very disturbed people on the street.
    The solutions? Make quality mental health care easier to obtain for the mentally ill than firearms, reopen mental hospitals and shut down the scientology crime syndicate.
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  33. anonysamvines Member

    And copycats
    Once it has been done once
    Someone somewhere will think Ooh that's an idea. I should do that!
  34. Random guy Member

    Could it be that automatic fire/high capacity guns only then started entering main stream circulation?

    The 1970s also saw the rise of the counter culture. I suppose the idea of having a society entirely separate from the regular society, combined with shell shocked soldiers returning from Vietnam to a society that did not really want to know about them could be a contributing factor.
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  35. The current popular wave of awareness/folklore seems to start eariler, around 1960 with Whitman and Starkweather/Fulgate. The mass killers were already a meme by the late sixties/early seventies. "Targets" is a pretty precient take on the subject.

    The phenomena merely kept up with available technology. Adding a semi-auto when you could get one is a no-brainer. Factor in better communications technology and you have greater potential for copycats to want their own slice of fame.
  36. Random guy Member

    I suddenly realize I knew of the Whitman-case, the shooter in the tower. The episode is famous even over here in Scandinavia. It inspired a Swedish book that was shot as a film in 1976 "The man on the roof", easiest the best film about a mass shooter I have seen, recommended to those interested in the topic (and don't mind subtitles):
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  37. tinfoilhatter Member

    from what i understand, they found a brain tumor in Whitman during his autopsy. They believe that is what contributed to his "snapping". But, Whitman was also a former marine...... Though i do believe he did not see any combat.
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  38. Random guy Member

    I finally had time to see the full video through. The video is stupid, actually just as stupid as the reason you list for banning Kalashnikovs. What the NRA man failed to emphasize at the end, is that all the weapons he showed have enough power to kill a person. Granted, you'd have to perhaps use two rounds from the Kalashnikov and perhaps 3 or 4 from the Brwning HP or MAC-10, while one will suffice from the .30-06 hunting rifle, but that is not the point.

    In order to be an effective killer in a school shout-out setting, you don't need range, you don't need very hard-hitting ammo, you need a handy gun with full- or semi auto capacity and a decent capacity magazine. The lever gun is almost there, but to really wreak havoc, you want an auto-loader.

    Thus you leave out the Winchester, you leave out the hunting rifle (too long and cumbersome) and even the semi-auto shotgun is marginal. It splashes the water-melon quite convincingly, but humans aren't water melons. A surprisingly high number of people survive being hit by shot, and besides, the magazine capacity is too low.

    From the film, that leave to MAC-10 and the Kalashnikov as the only suitable alternatives for a would-be maniac. And why is that? Because they have good (though not great) destructive power, and are designed to facilitate shooting at fast-appearing targets in a cramped and cluttered setting. The same goes for AR-15 and other medium-powered assault rifles or any 9 mm and up sub-machine gun you care to mention. To harness the superior power of the hunting rifles, you'd need to do what Withman did and find a position with high elevation with good overview. That very rarely happens in school shooting.

    Hunting rifles and shotguns are basically hunting weapons, unsuited to warfare-like scenarios. Assault rifles and sub-machine guns are designed for warfare-like scenarios and are unsuited to any other activity. There are no need for guns like that unless you want to partake in such activities. There's absolutely good reason to ban such guns if you want to stop a school massacre. It's not because they're too powerful or full of foreign parts or whatnot, it's because they really only have one use, and that's to kill people effectively.
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  39. My father hunted and collected guns, but always gave the hairy eyeball to people who collected and shot assault-type guns. You almost exactly quoted his reasoning right there. His guns were tools, and his skills were a matter of pride, as he had helped to feed his family on the farm during the depression. Toward the end of his life, he let his NRA membership lapse as he thought they were moving in the wrong direction by supporting the ownership of assault guns and becoming openly right-wing.

    Times like this, I'm glad he's no longer about. This sort of shit would break his heart.
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  40. tinfoilhatter Member

    Indeed. The video is old, and predates the major media coverage of school shootings (see my wikipedia link in an above post). this is why he focused on the power of the guns, and not on the rate of fire and the other aspects.

    The problem is that none of the american laws seem to be passed for practical reasons. This is frightening. The most deadly caliber in the US is the .22. The smallest and least powerful of them all. Yet it is NEVER MENTIONED.

    From the above link:
    "The person usually then asks if that if that means it is OK to carry a .22 LR. To which I reply no, and I’m about to tell you why.
    The .22 LR is a very deadly round. Many emergency room doctors will tell you that a .22 caliber gunshot is one of the worst to come in, because, quite often, a .22 LR will ricochet inside the body causing many small, hard-to-find wound channels. The surgeries for these wounds can take hours and as often as not, the victims bleed out and die."

    He goes on to complain about the stopping power.

    There is no question that ALL guns are dangerous. There is no question that responsible gun use should be pushed by every gun organization. Truth be told, a person hellbent on murder will find a way to commit murder. This is why i feel that the best way to prevent massacres is better access to mental health treatments.

    As for hunting, I prefer bows. They are quiet, and decapitation arrows are just awesome(and more humane+convenient).

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