Scientology and Werner Erhard

Discussion in 'Education, Research and Inside Reports' started by rasputin, Apr 22, 2008.

  1. rasputin Member

    Scientology and Werner Erhard

    Werner Erhard was a self-help guru and founded of est (Erhard Seminar Training), now Landmark Education/Forum. Among other sources, Erhard borrowed extensively from Scientology, having his staff take Scientology training and incorporating Scientology practices and concepts into his material.

    est, for its part, would go on to have its own share of controversies, described by many as a cult in its own right.

    When the Church found out what was happening Erhard was declared a Suppressive Person, as were all organisations and people associated with him. Erhard would later claim the Church attempted to have him killed and carried out a campaign of harassment against him. To this day the Church has an est repair rundown (note: goes to Scientologist website) designed to help "repair" any damage done to the Scientologist as a consequence of involvement with Erhard's teachings in whatever form:

    Basically what I'm looking for is some more detailed background information on Erhard/est/Landmark in general, but in particular the relationship between est and Scientology. If there's a copy of the est Repair Rundown available that would also be much appreciated, as would any other help. For example, they both made serious enemies of the Cult Awareness Network - how did this affect the relationship between the two, if at all?

    My reason for this is partly curiosity, partly to compare organisational structure, and partly to see how the relationship between the two changed over the years.

    - r

    - Scientology and Werner Erhard at Wikipedia
    - Scientology's Campaign to Discredit Werner Erhard - F.A.C.T.Net Bulletin
    - Affidavit of Theodore Heisig, Jr. ($cilon deployed against Erhard.)
    - Google results for Erhard on (several F.A.C.T.Net bulletins)
    - Outrageous Betrayal: The Real Story of Werner Erhard from Est to Exile (Hardcover) - book giving a critical view of Erhard and est in general
    - Turn up, tune in, transform? - 2003 article on Landmark
  2. Succubus Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    It is so funny you should mention this.

    I am in talks with someone who was a unfortunately pushed into a facility that used the est/Landmark/Lifespring styled teachings as a form of counseling.

    DO Note that Landmark & now-defunct EST are Privately owned for-profit businesses. Landmark, being the current company, is also oddly enough "employee owned" and private. Meaning that the only shareholders and board members are it's employees.

    Landmark Education Scroll down to "Labor Violations & Litigation"

    The Vanto Group, founded in 1993 as "Landmark Education Business Development" is VERY much like what Co$ has. It's a business consulting company which uses the tech from the Education division to help businesses improve profitability.

    "Est sees the purpose of life as wholeness or completion – truth – not survival..
    The other main difference between est and Scientology lies in the treatment of knowing. Ron Hubbard seems to have no difficulty in codifying the truth and in urging people to believe it. But I suspect all codifications, particularly my own. In presenting my own ideas, I emphasize their epistemological context. I hold them as pointers to the truth, not as the truth itself.
    I don’t think anyone ought to believe the ideas that we use in est. The est philosophy is not a belief system and most certainly ought not to be believed. In any case, even the truth, when believed, is a lie. You must experience the truth, not believe it."
    (The his shit don't work, my shit don't work statement."

    IRS hates cults lulz:
    The United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit found Erhard did not have grounds for changing a previous tax decision February 8, 1995, in the case "Werner H. Erhard v. Commissioner Internal Revenue Service.[41]

    Unlike LRH, He knows how to retire!
    In 1991, about the time of his retirement from WEA, Erhard sold his then-existing intellectual properties to the group that formed Landmark Education. He then left the United States.

    Article and links here: Landmark Forum
    and here: Cult Help and Information - Psychotherapy Cults
  3. Exeterheavy Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    As someone who took a couple of the Landmark courses and read about both Landmark and Scientology, it seems to me that Landmark has NOTHING to do with Scientology. Scientology is a religion--Landmark Education offers personal seminars that millions of people take and then are done with--There's nothing to join.
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  4. Succubus Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    Scientology is not a religion. LURK MOAR in my own posts. I list evidence and reasons why it is NOT a religion.

    Did you take the Landmark courses at a non-volunteer basis residential facility? That's not just "taking courses."
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Exeterheavy Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at, but it was just taking courses. I took the courses at an office building. There wasn't anything residential about it--Logistically, it was like going to a university class.
  6. evey Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    are you serious?

    they are both massive pyramid schemes, designed for getting maximum cash out of unsuspecting people. sure, "there's nothing to join" - theres just more courses to do (and pay for), again and again and again.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Succubus Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    What I was saying about the school is that Landmark Forum and it's related splinter "educational, motivation, and therapeutic" groups use the Landmark forum "technology" (falsely advertised vague motivational/group therapy 'information') are being utilized as psychotherapy and personality reform in boarding school for youths, teens, and adults.

    How could this truly be if the company's for-profit designation is still, well, intact? If the only shareholders are employees and management (all of which HAVE to have 'graduated' from the 'educational technology'), aren't profits being assigned amongst them (not evenly) with only a portion of money being retained the business? Last I checked, that's how my business runs. It's not profit until the bills are paid.

    Many have said this statement refers to the unpaid time as "employee obligations" that comes when the company has sucked you in to continue the "empowering and dynamic" whatever they try to sell you. In fact, as I'm trolling around more, I don't see anyone really commenting on what they ACTUALLY learned specifically. It's a "I'm going to use what I learned in my life and career. I learned the power to be dynamic and effective." Uhhh... how? In what ways?

    I mean at least christian "motivational" speakers tell you what they are teaching you. And at least, the participants can at least say "I learned God can be more in my life and help me when I make better more community conscious decisions." Now, I'm not saying the CMotiv' aren't con men too, but at least they can reiterate what they learned.

    Is there some sort of "You can't discuss what we taught exactly, but invite more to learn" clause?

    Not to be a speculation fag but Exeterheavy made his account just before posting the only two posts on this board (surprisingly only in this thread.). I would imagine you are either TROLLing for a company to look up keywords like WE's name, or IDK. Considering we are anonymous, posting to this thread under "your normal Anon login" wouldn't be a viable reason.
  8. Exeterheavy Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    What have I gotten out of the courses? I've become much closer to my parents and gotten interested them as real human beings--I had basically decided I'd never be close to my father after my parents' divorce. I took on a series of reunions for my farflung family. I realized that I was interested in more than my own little problems and got involved in a number of far reaching charity projects. I used to be an extremely anti-social and shy person, now I do public speaking professionally.

    I don't know much about Landmark the company and how it works; I do know I got all that from several courses over several months that cost about a total of $1000 (this was a while back).

    And I find it insulting that after quietly watching these boards for a while, and finding it time to post about something that I actually know about, that I am immediately accused of trolling or having sinister motives.
  9. Succubus Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    If you have been quietly watching all of this should NOT be offensive. In fact, you are loosing the point of we who are anonymous. we have no identities to share and thus post what we want because no one should take personal criticism seriously, fag. <- you should know this is not an offensive word if you have read the forums. :D

    Anyhow, everyone pokes fun with skepticism, so take it easy tiger. We're all just exchanging type.

    On a Landmark> Co$ note:

    Here is another site that links the whole "Erhard and associates" stole scientology tech to change it into his own scam.

    est, Werner Erhard
    • Like Like x 1
  10. moose Member

  11. Randomness Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard


    Here, streaming vid.

    P.S. Already been done to death, my g/f did landmark and avatar courses, both have lots of things in common with scientology, Landmark is more like the whole culty-break-you-down thing and Avatar is more like self-hypnosis.

    A cult is a cult is a cult, it's still a religion (religion is defined by its followers, not the church etc.), just worse imo.
  12. MikeTheKnife Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    I did the est training in 1976 and no hair grew on my palms nor warts on my nose. I thought it was great and it was cheap compared to CoS. I patched up my relationships with my wife and kids.

    Courses after the training or forum are inexpensive and almost completely run by volunteers. You are asked to bring guests. It is called "enrollment". It is effectively the same thing that companies do when they want to have an IPO or to get venture capital. But here the subject matter is you and your experience of life, not your net worth.

    About the guests: it is a game. You learn about the game in the courses, and you practice out in the world. If you don't like the game or don't like doing that, stop taking courses.

    You do not get "declared", there is no "disconnection", there is no "suppressive person", "PTS", or any nasty stuff that CoS practices. There is no "clearing the planet". Your friends are still your friends, even if they don't take courses, and you can still talk to them. You can even invite them again if you want (unlike Direct Buy which forbids guests to come again for 10 years). There is no enforced volunteerisism. If you volunteer, you make an agreement. Keeping your agreement is up to you. Your supervisor (another volunteer), unlike your friends, will call you on breaking your agreement if you should choose to do that. The agreements are somewhat less than a billion years. How about 90 days (about the length of a course).

    There is no belief system as there would be in a religion. There is a world view ("You are whole and complete exactly as you are now."), however, and some would argue that is a belief.

    One of the things WE insisted on when he ran the company is that it be "viable" - i.e. it pays its bills, and that it provide value for the participants. No skirting the tax laws, no making it into a religion. WE had trouble with the IRS, but I have been audited too, and it just never went to court. He lost in court, too bad for him.

    He took from and modified CoS stuff. (Rumor coming next.) I heard he approached LRH and pitched the idea of a course for the masses (the training/forum has 200 participants), and LRH wanted no part of it. (End of rumor.) None of the OT III space opera stuff made it into the WE material. He also stole from other disciplines; Zen (See Eckhart Tolle's new book "A New Earth" for an in print treatment that is as close as you are going to get to the Forum without taking it), Sufi, Philosophers (Wittgenstein), etc. It is interesting that the CoS is the only outfit that regarded him as stealing their material (a "squirrel"), and the stuff they are most interested in is the space opera.

    My most interesting entanglement with CoS was in the 80s when I found out that WE had been a Scientologist. I thought it must be great if he was involved, so I bought and read Dianetics (an awful read) and a few other LRH books. I internalized the notion of "clear" and thought that to be a good idea. So I went to my local mission of the CoS and sat with a few people discussing their courses, etc. We discussed this business of "clear" and how to get there. At one point, without any attention on it, I mentioned that I had taken est. Suddenly the room got cold and everyone (I mean everyone) turned to stone. I thought this was a rather peculiar reaction by people who were "clear". The tone of their questions changed and suddenly, I was seeing ALL REACTION. The people I was talking to dissappeared. New people (in the same skinbags) took their places, and these new people were as stiff as sticks. At that point, I knew this "clear" stuff was bulls**t and left.
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  13. JuneBryde Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    Wow -- that's a great recommendation -- "cheaper than Co$"

    Some call it "recruitment" or "proselytizing."

    Uhhh.....I don't think you understand the nature of cult-type indoctrination, persuasion, seduction, and mind control tactics.

    They call it "transforming the planet." Same diff.

    Boy are you naive.

    Just substitute "transformation" for "clear" and you've got it.

  14. MikeTheKnife Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    Interesting how you have taken everything out of its context with the "quote" feature. Missing the point in some cases. You hear and see what you want to hear and see. Obviously, you are not a candidate for the forum, and nobody should invite you to the forum, so just say no if they do. And you appear not to be someone to engage in any kind of intellectual discussion about this since your mind is perhaps closed and made up. I don't know. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything; I just don't give a s**t. My story is what happened to me over 30 years of off and on again contact with the forum. It's just my story, and it has the authenticity of my having lived it, not seen it or read about it or heard it from someone else.

    My real mission: I am involved in Anon because I think the Co$ has spun a dangerous web and needs to be stopped. I mean really stopped. Stripped of the bogus 501C(3) non-profit (tax free) designation. Members stripped of the ability to deduct the tuition from their income (no other religion is permitted that feature). "Follow the money." Even if they give up SP and disconnection, they will find a way to work it back in because they NEED it to keep the machine working. The only way to kill the hydra is to cut off all the heads.

    BTW, "clear" is (as far as I can remember) having "no reactive mind". In the forum, you find out what you eventually find out in OT8 (or elsewhere - I never traveled the bridge) that you will always have stuff, the equivalent of an endless supply of BT, clusters and whatnot. That alone keeps the Co$ machine oiled with money. Too bad. That's life. It costs a few hundred dollars to find that out in the forum, not the tens of thousands in Co$.

    The "transformation" spoken of is a word attached to a Zen phenomenon of observation. That is different than no reactive mind. My point about that incident was that these Co$ people had a profound reaction, and at the same time declaring themselves "clear". Lies. They were as reactive as a rat trap.

    Thanks for sparring with me. Somehow, out of all of this, if I don't die first, I will succeed in my mission. But I still remain Anon.
  15. evey Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    bullshit. i have a number of friends who have had family and friends completely cut off all contact from them, because they thought landmark was a bad idea and refused to go to meetings with them. they were told they aren't "genuine" (landmark have thier own special language, too)

    they might not call it disconnection, but that doesn't make the effect any different.

    look its great that you got some good out of it, but (like scientology) i have heard way more horror stories than good ones, and at the end of the day they are run VERY similarly, with similar mental conditioning that can be seriously dangerous to the vulnerable mind.
  16. evey Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

  17. evey Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    triple! jesus christ my enturb just shat itself
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. rasputin Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    YouTube - Landmark Education Lars Bergwik part 1

    This guy is a former member of Landmark Forum and describes his experiences. In part 2 he goes into Erhard's relationship with Scientology, including the SP declare and the consequences.
  19. mojo Member

  20. MikeTheKnife Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    My point was it is not landmark policy, nobody tells anybody to do this, and you can still be an a**hole after taking the forum. If you want to be a pest, you can. If you want to alienate your relatives, you can. But it is YOU making the decisions about that, not some org. And you don't get any smarter either, so you may not be aware that your are the alienator.

    This is a HUGE distinction, and it rests with your free will, which Co$ removes from you while you aren't looking. And you are charged for it!!
  21. JuneBryde Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard


    Yeah, just keep telling yourself that, buddy.

    You've unwittingly described Landmark as well as Scientology because they removed or shut down or disabled that part of your brain that might recognize the evidence. All cults are pretty good at doing this amazing trick. Cult members have no problem seeing what dirty deeds other cults do. It's just their own that they are blind to. Otherwise, most would just walk away.

  22. MikeTheKnife Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    OK.... I give up. You are absolutely no fun. You keep telling me about myself, and how my brain works, or how parts of it are shut down, and how unwitting I am, and all you know about me you have learned from a few thousand pixels on a screen. And you are a cynic about it. Go do your thing. Make up more s**t, but do it on someone else. I will look for a better sandbox to play in, or at least places that are more fun and inspiring.

    You would have the SAME comments if I had lived a life of a cloistered nun and came out speaking positively about it. Have to get up at 5am. Forced to. Have to mutter prayers all morning. Have to wear head to toe outfit full of starch. Forced to do lots of work around the facility. No talking to each other. Absolute silence. Rigid schedule. Unchanging day to day. Ultimate deprivation. Ugh. Sounds like a cult to me, so it must be a cult. And you, June, would miraculously know more than me about the whole thing.

    A message to Tory Magoo (one gutsy lady): you are my inspiration. I saw your exit videos on youtube and and wanted to get involved in Anon, but there has to be more to it than what I discovered here. Like: letters to the reps and senators (all over the country!), letters to the editor, op ed pieces, visits to your reps and senators in congress. Yes, go visit them and tell them the facts about CoS and the IRS "special treatment" and back it up with evidence. Always have hard factual recent evidence. Something that can be used to counter the Co$ rebuttal. Expose the veiled corporate structure and phony studies about narconon, etc. Follow the money. With enough of that kind of pressure, the house of cards will fall. It will take a persistent effort over YEARS because our congressmen are now DEFENDING Co$ as a religion persecuted in Germany. They don't know the facts. Use current factoids. Factualize them. Imagine 2000 letters to the editor showing up in a week in 2000 cities all over the country. If every letter is read by 1000 readers, that means the word gets out to ..... 2,000,000 readers. Your own story is the most factual of all because it is you that it happened to. You can't do this on a copy machine. You have to write it. Then do it again in a few weeks. And again. And again. It isn't easy but it can be very effective, as long as you use my secret landmark techniques. (Woah ... just kidding. Put your keyboards back in their holsters. LTFU.)
  23. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    Any Scientologist is convinced they do what they do of their whole free will. They willingly goo into debt, abort children, disconnect, fear psychiatry, stay in when things get insane, blaming themselves under the guise of personal responsibility, authenticity, whatever. Free will? It not as likely as you think.

    Remember: Controlling people by making them internalize the group will as their own = Brainwashing

    I'm not saying Landmark is outright brainwashing, but that your assumptions about what is and is not a red flag is wrong. The whole "racket" (pardon the pun if you know their lingo) has morethan a few cult characteristics that cannot be so easily written off if you can be objective about it.

    And why do people think a cult has to have an official membership or housing? Remember, Scientology only has a mailing list up until you become staff or /b/org. MANY post-1960s cults use the LGAT (Large Group Awareness Training) format instead of the commune or church approach. And Scientology functions a lot more like est/Landmark, Avatar, etc. than a traditional "church" ...
  24. Boldgirl Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    This brings back memories. I did the est stuff too-and when it came up at the beginning of my foolish entrance into scionland--the room was also dead quiet. Even after they showed me all the 'truth' (ha!) about est and how it 'messes up cases'....I still didnt agree or get it. I got several people into the forum/est stuff and they got a lot out of it-but like Mike theKnife, you just leave when you were done and no one bothered you. It was relatively cheap too. Anyway after my 'est fix' (ha!) I was told I had to do 'ameds' for getting people into est--I was crying-I was made to feel like an evil twit! ! I was a twit alright --but not evil!!!

    This all happened during my beginning auditing-fresh meat into the cult and I am having to 'make amends' for sharing my successes with others from est because 'I messed up cases'. I didnt even know what a case was! Boy I am such an idiot! That should have been my obvious kick in the face sign to turn around and RUN from the scions.....!

    But NNNOOOOOOOOOO...I figured -oh they must know-they are way more organized, they have THICK books and BIG Buildings...this must be the truth!


    This is me everyday since I left....I still have a hard time realizing I am so naive....UGH!!!!!
  25. timid sparrow Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    I did est, and scnt. Both are cults. In all honesty, I did have some gains on both, est was cheaper and I could leave when I wanted. ONly one of them is deadly.
  26. Spanna Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    Fair Game in pratice... only thing is Werner Erhard wasn't even a critic!

    " 26. Scientology has five (5) full filing cabinets of information on Erhard and EST and the material goes back to 1943. It includes in it their actions and activity against Erhard going back to approximately the last 20 years. Apparently Scientology had some problem with Erhard and have been attempting to put him out of business for some time. From the material in these cabinets it was evident Scientology was compiling a media blitz against Erhard and that Scientology was behind the 60 Minutes program and a national disinformation campaign to get Erhard. I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of California that the foregoing statements are true and correct. This Declaration is executed on this 1st day of November, 1991 in the City of Tustin, County of Orange, California.

    Theodore Heisig, Jr. "

    Lawyer Michael Flynn (look up Flynn on Xenu TV) had some knowledge (in the 80's) of the info Scientology had been collecting on Werner, since the FBI bust, and wanted to alert him... however he settled his cases with Scientology and return documents and abided by the "gag" Scientology required.

    There is a new DVD about Werner Erhard and est out this monthTransformation: The Life & Legacy of Werner Erhard and the contribution he has made. Even behind the scene since 1991 (certainly no retirement).

    I am with MikeTheKnife on this thread. Scientology was about 25% of the est Training, less so of The Forum, Werner (or Jack Rosenberg to use his birth name) had "tried" many self-help and "spiritual" programs/paths before and after Scientology (what interested Jason Beghe to get into Scientology, how he talks about his early life and spiritual curiosity would almost cover the same ground as Werner... just to give you guys a little more to relate to here?!?!?!)... I think his biggest wake up was Zen and the work of Alan Watts (who I thoroughly recommend, esp. something he wrote called "The Book: of the taboo - against knowing who you are" The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are: Alan Watts: Books )

    Werner Erhard was controversial by what he promised to deliver (and how) that some called "Instant Enlightenment (with VAT)" - There was a point where 1 person in 1,000 had taken the est Training in the United States. That is considered a critical mass in sociodynamic terms.

    There too will be one for Anonymous in ratio with the number of active Scientologists...

    Just Food for thought.
  27. tazor Member

    Re: Scientology and Werner Erhard

    I read an account that stated LRH wanted to buy est and WE turned him down. Can't remember where I read that. I'll have to check. If I recall LRH was very impressed with the number of people est was pulling in. And that sounds just like LRH. lol
  28. Thanks for your rational posts, from someone with actual experience and who COMPLETED a course. I notice most of the criticism is from those who say they've never even attended, or who left early. That's like posting a review saying you know everything about what it's like to dine at XYZ restaurant when you only tasted the appetizer!

    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  29. Anonymous Member

    Is there a reason why you are posting in a four-year-old thread?
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  30. Anonymous Member

    "Guest" posting. Guest = Clueless N00B.
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  31. Because the thread was started 4 years ago, if it was started 3 years ago they would be posting in a 3 year old thread.
    • Like Like x 1
  32. Anonymous Member

    Do you actually use that brain you've got there to think with? derp
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  33. Quentinanon Member

    Hubbard started "Operation Z" which was to become competition for EST, but Op Z failed before it became commercialised. It went into the memory hole by 1980.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  34. Anonymous Member

    • Bad Spelling Bad Spelling x 1
  35. Exeterheavy and MikeTheKnife have it right, according to my own personal experience with est and very, very limited experience with CoS, back in the 1970s and 1980s.

    Once est became WE&A (1982?), I noticed a palpable shift to "the dark side." Suddenly, things became much nastier, less open, seemingly in conflict with the "truth telling" I had become used and so admired up to this point. At that point, I lost interest, and discontinued my involvement.

    Learned a LOT in est that I had not expected to learn. Became somewhat of an expert in what I later figured out was the CoS "teaching/learning" technology focused on the importance of vocabulary, gradient, and "making ideas physically real" (not just studying them as abstract notions). That turned into a 35 year career (still counting) as an academic coach.

    What I did NOT get from est, unfortunately, were solutions to various personal problems I suffered with at the time (some of which I still battle today, 36 years later).

    And it DOES appear that there was a whole lot of b.s. that I (and others) were just completely unaware of going on at the highest levels of the est organization. As they say: "A fish stinks from the head down." So, ultimately, I place responsibility for that in Werner's hands.

    I was in the first Forum workshop, and reviewed it two other times. I found The Forum to be boring and unfocused, especially after the est training, seminars, assisting, etc. (which were very highly focused, even riveting, at times), and just never felt like being more involved.

    So est was certainly not, in my experience, the "whole enchilada." But I did learn a number of very important things, and had a number of very real and important spiritual experiences and realizations that to this day are very deeply meaningful to me.

    The b.s. that DID pollute the promise of the est training and organization was very real, and deserves to be exposed, remembered, discussed, and documented. The same thing goes 100 times over for CoS, since the b.s. at that organization seems to have been worse by roughly that factor.

    It's also important to remember that Werner Erhard did make several lasting contributions to our culture, many of which are "unsung." Any time you hear the phrase "making a difference," or "an idea whose time has come," or "empowerment," or "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result," it should be remembered that it was Werner Erhard who popularized each of these. His emphasis on teams and co-creation in the business environment, borrowing the notion from what he'd observed from the ascendent Japanese business culture of the day, changed the way business was organized in this country.

    And some people did seem to be pretty badly damaged by the est training. That can certainly be said of a GREAT number of people involved in CoS.

    So, as far as est goes, some bad, some good, some really bad, some really good ... pretty much like most things in life.

    As far as CoS goes, a MUCH MUCH MUCH scarier situation, in my (not terribly well educated) opinion.
  36. Anonymous Member

    I'm willing to hang the crime of "empowerment" on him, but the rest have been floating around the English language (or French, in the case of "an idea whose time has come" - Victor Hugo) a lot longer than Werner Erhard and he had dick to do with making them popularized.

    Like Hubbard: what's original isn't good and what's good isn't original.
    • Like Like x 2
  37. To the person who posted way way above that told the guy to take it easy tiger......what a total a-hole you are. You totally provoked him with antagonism, he responded mildly and you tell him to calm down tiger and make it about his reaction not about your nasty, self righteous comments. Hs experience is his experience, you're an absolute butt hole.
  38. Thank god we got that taken care of. These last 14 months have been so lacunose without your comment on this thread.
    • Like Like x 2
  39. DeathHamster Member

    • It Happens April 18, 1996, Steve Jackson, Denver Westword News, Village Voice Media
    • Like Like x 1
  40. Paint and canvas has been around since the 16th century but every now and then someone comes along who uses it in a way that captures people imaginations.

    Werner Erhard came along and wound up collecting, embodying, and presenting a bunch of esoteric, psychological philosophical ideas, notions and practices and found a way to put them altogether and make them useful to a whole bunch of people. Some of the terms came from Scientology allegedly, like the term "clearing", which was just a damn good term for what they were trying to say (if one embraces that kind of looking/thinking and no if one does not).
    Yes you can call Warhol, Pollock and a handful of others "frauds" and label their activities "garbage", and no one owes any artist any recognition, but the fact remains that they are recognized by many as having made a substantial contribution to the world or art. Same with Erhard, no one owes him anything but many credit him with having been useful to them.

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