Scientology sued for Fraud! It's going DOWN like bird sh**! (The Garcia Suit)

Discussion in 'Media' started by BlackRob, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. Random guy Member

    The judge hasn't had his say yet. Garcias' side has asked to have a closer look at the (so called) trust, and if it turns up to be as shady as Babbitt hinted in his filing, there's a chance the case stays where it is.
  2. Anonymous Member

    The last public disclosure of trustees was 20 years, on the LEAKED IRS Agreement, which has never been certified/verified as a true final copy.

    Diversity jurisdiction depends entirely on the addresses of the trustees. Babbitt et al had no way of knowing with 100% certainty who the trustees were let alone where they lived. So no matter how you spin it, Babbitt had to take a shot at it totally in the dark. Kinda like this...


    Babbitt took a shot at it blindfolded and missed. Scientology waited nine months to point out he missed.

    If all goes well, that stall tactic will piss off the judge and they will be forced to prove he missed the pinata and be made to disclose information that is not currently known re: who the trustees are and where they live. As frustrating as it may seem now, having that disclosure exposed to sunshine might actually be a big WIN in the long run due to the leverage it provides.
    • Like Like x 5
  3. tikk Member

    I concur with this piñata analogy, as well as the rest. Jurisdiction is the plaintiff's responsibility to plead but it's the defendants' responsibility to raise defects in a timely manner. Even though subject matter jurisdiction can't be waived I think there's a strong likelihood Scientology gets spanked for this stunt. Probably fees, hopefully sanctions and fees.
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  4. rickybobby Member

    I really, really, really wish I could DOUBLE LIKE a post right now. Because THIS^^^^^^^
  5. rickybobby Member

    And I am betting the judge really wishes he had the ability to spank them harder, but, sadly, he has to follow the letter of the law.
  6. DeathHamster Member

  7. bAnon Member

    They go mad after a while.
    You see how that would work?

    Scientology 101


    Attached Files:

  8. wolfbane Member

    Does it make sense strategically, that they might have opted to delay raising the jurisdiction issue in order to avoid disclosing trustee information as long as possible?

    Hypothetically, if the motion to disqualifying the attorneys that they initially pursued had succeeded isn't it possible the case might have gotten withdrawn or dropped? Which would have allowed TeamScilon to conveniently sidestep dropping dox on who/where the trustees were.
  9. Anonymous Member

    Ok thanks, I am tracking on all this. But there's another point I'm still not grasping.

    If Babbitt took a shot in the dark at where to file and he wasn't 100% certain about it, couldn't he have asked the cult attorneys questions about where CSRT is based through discovery or by some other means? Because if he did that and the cult lied, then it would be totally clear that the cult was wrong. But if he didn't ask, doesn't it go back on him for not doing so since he's responsible on where to file?
  10. overhere Member

    Is the church even obligated to give any attorney this information w/out a court order?
  11. 119

    "Luis and Rocio Garcia were resting in their hotel room at Scientology's Sandcastle complex in Clearwater in August 2005 when Super Power fundraiser Charmaine Roger knocked on their door.

    The church wanted to place a large bronze Scientology cross atop the unfinished Super Power building four blocks away.

    A contractor was standing by. How much could they give?

    The Garcias looked at each other. They didn't want to donate.

    Roger said the cross would be visible for miles. She dropped to her knees, Rocio remembered, her hands pressed together and pointing upward, as if in prayer. Please help us. I know you have big hearts. I know you are big beings. "I felt so bad,'' Rocio said. "I mean, you cannot say no to a person when you see that.''

    They donated $65,000.

    The cross wasn't mounted for five years — not until September 2010.

    "I felt pretty cheated about that,'' Luis said.

    The church said it couldn't verify the Garcias' story.

    Were other parishioners asked to donate for the cross?

    Spokeswoman Karin Pouw said it's common practice to ask parishioners to donate for specific features such as a stained-glass window or a cross."
  12. tikk Member

    I suppose he could have asked them but I've never heard of that being done, and I'm not sure Scientology would've obliged. "Hi, I'd like to sue you, please provide me with a list of your trustees and their current residences." Not many parties are going to be so accommodating because they're not obliged to lift a finger until they've been served.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Anonymous Member

    Jurisdiction was specified on the very first action filed - the complaint that started the lawsuit. See pg 4:

    So no. You don't get handed the keys to a new car and drive away without going through the process of buying the car first.
  14. rickybobby Member

    I think David Miscavige, with his keen legal mind the simplistic logic of a four year old, thought he could emasculate the Garcia's case by delaying long enough to actually open the building. Delay, delay, delay, open the building, kill the case in this jurisdiction, then look around and say "See? This isn't a fraud! We are USING this building!" as a way to keep the Garcias from re-filing.

    I hope the Garcias get the opportunity to pursue this long enough to get to the point that they force the CoS to open their books and show us the money trail. No matter what the outcome of the suit, that in itself would be a big, fat WIN.
    • Like Like x 1
  15. wolfbane Member

    I partially buy that, sans the "open the building" part. My tinfoil hat still says his personal war on MR2 and instilling fear into the disgruntled apostate camp is primary motivators in his lawfare strategy. Flashback to Babbitt's epic press conference when the case was filed where he basically made it known this was going to be the war of all wars:

    Plus lets not forget - once this case runs its course, being found guilty of fraud could impact their tax exempt status.

    Disclaimer - runs its course = long damn time. And by long I mean longer than longcat long. All the major cult lawfare cases that came with a significant potential of win for either side clogged up the court systems for 6-10 years before there was even a light at the end of the tunnel. So anybody who expects to see the Garcia case resolved into a win or loose score in less than a decade is smokin' crack.

    Case in point - LauraD, 4.5yrs in and that case is just now coming to the end of the pre-trial phase. Maybe. So 5yrs of pre-trial battles just to get to the actual trial, which will likely take at least another 5yrs.

    Relate that to the Garcia case and they're currently less than 1/10th of way into the fight. And that's not even factoring in the risk to their tax-exempt status, which puts this case into completely different category of do-or-die no-holds-barred lawfare much like the Lisa McPherson and Wollersheim cases were.
    • Like Like x 2
  16. i still blame Mike Rinder for not knowing better. he run the OSA, he should have known and I am sure he did
  17. Anonymous Member

    Unfortunately for Miscavige lovers he will hold his cards close to his chest and is absolutely right to do so.
  18. The Wrong Guy Member

    • Like Like x 1
  19. Anonymous Member

    Uh...TEN years?! Some of us may not be alive to see the end of this thing. Like if Babbitt, Garcia, Rinder, etc., decide to refile the case in the proper venue, everything basically starts all over from scratch, correct?

    And if Garcia's attorneys are doing this on a contingency basis, can they actually float this thing for that long until the win (if it turns out correctly)?
  20. wolfbane Member

    Wollersheim litigation ran almost to completion of the case because they fought it tooth-n-nail and lasted 20 years before he got his big fat settlement offer in the 11th hour. Vicky Aznaran's lawsuit ran 6 years before she sold out for a settlement. Split the difference - 13 years for suits where former member sued with big earth-shaking allegations and didn't walk away utterly destroyed. Although what they were left with after the attorneys got paid is another story.

    I factored that into my 10 years guestimate. I think it was muldrake who pointed out this case will likely see a couple trips to the US Supreme court. Everything that doesn't go the cult's way will get appealed, at every step of the way. That is apart of their strategy - drag it out as long as possible.

    That remains to be seen. But it is not unheard of for lawfags who fight the cult for a long time to eventually crash and burn under the onslaught of their tactics (Flynn and Dandar).
  21. DeathHamster Member

    When CoS pulls out all the stops, it's never safe to underestimate how long they can spin a case.
    The Wollersheim Campaign is the worst-case scenario--so far--but they still lost.
    • Like Like x 1
  22. DeathHamster Member

    On the negative side for CoS, every trip they've done through the court system has left tracks. Every trick, misrepresentation and "other side of the horse" argument that they've used in the past is down on record somewhere.

    They've depended on being able to hit the Big Reset Button after every case, and the next case's lawyers and judges have had to start back from square zero.

    The Internet, archives and indexing change those old rules, and I don't think that they'll like the next step a'coming. Well... too bad for them.
    • Like Like x 3
  23. Anonymous Member

    Ugh. So by what you're saying, this is almost some sort of evolutionary thing.

    Well it's one thing for someone dedicating their lives to taking down the cult. I guess I'm seeing that's the kind of devotion it's going to take (RIP Shawn Lonsdale, Ida Cadburn, etc.).

    But how can that possibly sit with Garcia's team of Ted Babbitt, Ron Weil and Bob Johnson? I know they are fighting, but unless I'm wrong, they are about winning cases and cashing in, not to devoting their lives to taking out the cult. And they don't look like spring chickens. Same with the Garcias. Rinder too and on top of that, he has a new kid to support.

    So if this is going to take anywhere from 10-20 years before there is any reward, it seems like that could be potentially millions the lawyers would have to shell out themselves in the meantime. That's if they are around to even see the end of it themselves. And by the end, if they win, it seems like the Garcias and even Rinder would end up with nothing after lawyer fees.

    This seems completely, utterly ridiculous! Am I getting the general scenario right or am I off-the-mark?
  24. Ceiling Sue Member

    I've been a critic for a decade. A few posters who posted recently ITT have been at it longer than me. Don't expect a slam-bang implosion of the cult anytime soon, although it would be nice if that happened.

    On the bright side, Scientology IS declining rapidly. Kept afloat by FRONT GROUPS and whales.

    RightOn is correct, the front groups like Applied Scholastics and Narconon (cult cash cows) need continual exposure.
    • Like Like x 5
  25. Ceiling Sue Member

    Dammit, meant to reply anonymously. I normally use this sock for, um, other joking and degrading stuff.
  26. jensting Member

    I stopped doing the "if you tell that to the kids of today..." Yorkshire Dad routine years ago. My first IRL protest was Sept 1995. That dates me. Which is a lucky break ;)

    Quite right. While The French government has it rights, these things move very slowly indeed. While I'm all for due process in the legal system, there are times when this feels like process is overdue...
    Exposure yes. On the other hand, if we do get to them being banned for being a criminal organisation (no longer an impossible outcome in France) I very much hope that the money flow will get scrutinised as carefully as that of charities sending money to the middle east, i.e. properly (well, I can dream).
    • Like Like x 2
  27. Random guy Member

  28. RightOn Member

    sadly no. IMO
    People can't find anything when they don't know what they are looking for. That is where WWP comes in. They need to be pointed in the right direction.
    WISE is the stealthiest of them all. They have so many different names under their belt. Plus they change the names over and over. The consulting firms and tutoring services are HUGE cash cows. But I think the consulting services may be the stealthiest. They are all about employee productivity improvement and very difficult to find/expose.
  29. DeathHamster Member

    I'm saying that they can't get away with a lot of their tricks a second time--the other side can pull out the previous cases. I doubt they could play the shell game card again: Move all the assets from Church of Scientology California to Church of Scientology International, and claim that there's no thin dimes left for Wolly.

    The Garcias' case is probably going to blow away the trust smokescreen. Any future cases can swing directly at the pinata. They played their one-shot, and it's gone.

    And with Scientology, judges now seem to understand that they will appeal if given half a chance, so they're careful not to leave loopholes. (Judge Dib Waldrip in the Mosey Rathbun case.)
    CoS will try to derail the case with endless motions, and trips up and down the courts, but they only have so many trick cards in their hand, and less in every case. Their unlimited-use Religion card is being used to push their "arbitration" scam, but I don't think that's going too far.

    In the end, CoS always has the escape hatch of offering a settlement big enough to make this go away.

    I'm up here in the peanut gallery. I'm sure that the Garcias' team has a strategy tree mapped out and knew what they were getting into.

    tl;dr: Court battles with CoS are like wrestling robot shark-bears; it's never easy and no one gets into the ring with them without a plan.
    • Like Like x 2
  30. wolfbane Member

    Historically speaking, one does not fight scilons in a court of law to cash in so yes you had the wrong context for viewing this case. This is the accurate viewpoint of what it has been like in the past to fight the cult in a court of law:


    Debbie Cook's settlement was the first sign that ^^This scenario has possibly changed.

    At some point in the long-term future, after a half-dozen or so BIG cases have been won with a huge payout and no gag order, cashing-in may be a reasonably likely a scenario rather than a pipe-dream. The Garcias, DesCrescenzo and Mosey cases are currently testing that theory.

    So realistically speaking: the ultimate win with ^^Those test cases will be whether or not the plaintiffs walk away with enough cash to pay their legal fees without landing in bankruptcy court.

    And *IF* after paying the legal expenses they have one handful of cash leftover to celebrate their victory and take a week-long vacation somewhere nice before that cash is completely gone - EPIC FUCKING WIN, a miracle has happened.

    Eg: The Headley test cases ended with a massive online fund raiser to pay their 45k worth of legal fees. Which essentially turned the loss into a win because they were not utterly destroyed in fighting for the greater good. Just like Debbie Cook, that was a big game-changer as far as eliminating the fear of suing the cult so that future cases are more likely to come forth.

    Hopefully, the Garcias, DesCrescenzo and Mosey cases will likewise be game-changers where they each push back the cult's defenses by a few small yet significant baby steps so that future cases stand a better chance of being something that can be successfully won in less than 10 years. In that sense, Babbitt's initial filing under diversity jurisdiction should be credited as one of those significant baby step achieved with a win scored insofar as he has already gotten the cult to open up a small crack in the religious trust cloaking and partially dox the trustees.

    Just like Anons fight the cult with a death-by-a-thousand-papercuts mentality, ALL the current lawsuits are fighting the cult with a similar pissing-into-the-wind because it is the right thing to do mentality. Ovar 9000 gallons of piss will eventually put out the fire behind the cult's scorched-earth lawfare tactics. But it will take a long time and a lot of resources before we see that happen.
    • Like Like x 4
  31. are you fucking kidding me?
    it is going to take 10 to 20 years for the Garcias to get paid, if they even win, which with the antics that Mike Rinder is pulling, most likely it will never happen. I wondered if the Garcias even win and they die before those 20 years, if the case then would disappear.
  32. wolfbane Member

    Times have changed significantly, and having former SO execs available for testimony is a huge advantage that past lawfare battles did not have. Thus my conservative speculation remains the same - it will take approx. 10 years and then the church will roll-over with a big fat settlement offer.
  33. DeathHamster Member

  34. Anonymous Member

    Sorry for being so cynical, but whatthefuckever. The cult is opening the building. Hard to keep arguing about how much of a fraud it is. And yeah, under the "great" conditions painted by wolfbane, the Garcia case might take only 10 years before they get a big-fat settlement. WTF, that's supposed to make us feel all warm and fuzzy all over?!
  35. DeathHamster Member

    Although CoS will argue that way, it doesn't erase three years of the building sitting idle while they continued to extort donations far in excess of what was needed to complete it.
  36. wolfbane Member

    Nope. It was merely a reality check that cult lawfare is a war of attrition and setbacks in any big case against Scientology are inevitable. So as much as it sucks to see how the diversity issue played out, seeing this case headed towards getting re-filed with less than one year invested isn't all that shocking.

    What is shocking is seeing idgits bawling that this setback is somehow Rinder's fault without giving him credit for not only making it possible in the first place, but also making it feasible for Babbitt to do it on a contingency basis.
    • Like Like x 3
  37. The Wrong Guy Member

    Judge James Whittemore Reins in the Garcia v. Scientology Case | The Underground Bunker


    We asked a member of our legal team to give us some thoughts on the judge’s order.

    The judge is angry that the parties are going in many directions outside of the rules and without authority from him. Accordingly, the purpose of this order is to clear the docket of distracting, unauthorized pleadings starting with the church’s Nov. 4th “response” to the trusts’ response on diversity jurisdiction. The judge points out that it was “curious” that one set of defendants responded to the other set of defendants, and it was outside of the rules. He also points out that Babbitt’s response to the church’s memorandum on arbitration was unauthorized.

    The judge is clearly ticked at both parties for distracting the court. He may be angrier with the distractions caused by the defendants, however, because he makes the point that they have repeatedly filed multiple motions for the same relief.

    We’ll let you sift through the order to see which filings have been strickened. For now, the focus of this case will be on the question of jurisdiction.
    • Like Like x 2
  38. Anonymous Member

    This is unexpected. I can't wait to read the dox to see what was stricken. I do like that this judge isn't taking any bullshit from either side. It bodes well for the good guys, since bullshit is a major cult tool.
  39. BigBeard Member

    Off hand, I'd say the Judge is pissed about the multiple redundent filings by Cof$.! He puts it politely, but it comes through pretty clearly anyway.

    • Like Like x 2
  40. overhere Member

    FIFY. ;)
    • Like Like x 4

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