Scientology sued for Fraud! It's going DOWN like bird sh**! (The Garcia Suit)

Discussion in 'Media' started by BlackRob, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. TorontosRoot Member

    NO!!! Fucking cult, idiots! They likely had to have threatened the judge somehow or paid him with a hefty bribe to get it dismissed. :(
    • Like Like x 1
  2. It now seems a little strange that Whittemore would enter the letters into the record before finding against the Garcias because the 1st Amendment ties his hands. Perhaps his purpose was to get the letters publicized and warn future marks who might be enticed to put money on account with CoS, since there isn't a legal remedy for people who do.
  3. RightOn Member

  4. Random guy Member

    Well, Whittemore said he wanted to see the result of the "arbitration" (my quotes) before he rules on whether the process is unjust. His new ruling is in keeping with this. I'd say go through with the kangaroo court, and report back to the judge once done.
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Quentinanon Member

    I cannot think of any other countries where such a ruling would occur.
    The U.S. is very messed up on the subjects of organized religion and scientology.
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Malory Member

    ^^This. Judges don't like to leave gaps and loopholes if they can avoid it.
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Random guy Member

  8. RightOn Member

    But there lies the rub.
    There won't be any "kangaroo court" if nobody "jump ins".
    Every single person the Garcias have asked the COS about, the COS says they are not in good standing. Every person the COS has offered wouldn't have an unbiased opinion. So how can an arbitration ever take place?
    I mean that is what the Garcias told Whittmore.
    Unless Whittmore appoints an outside party who is unbiased to over see the arbitration.
    But even with that, it is doubtful the COS would not get to them with either a bribe or ruin them utterly before said arbitration takes place.
    So wasn't Whittmore the unbiased opinion they Garcia's were looking for?
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Quentinanon Member

    Yes he was. And he let the Garcias down where he had the power to rule.
  10. RightOn Member

    Wasn't that the reason for the whole court case from the start? DUH!
    I don't understand what Whittmore is doing.
  11. Random guy Member

    I think Whittmore is very well aware of the hornet nest he has put his hand into. My guess is he is doing his very best to steer the case down the safest possible path in the shitfest that is American religious legislation.
    • Like Like x 2
  12. RightOn Member

    I agree, but when there is proof without a shadow of a doubt that the COS denied every person the Garcias asked about,
    And the person who helped write the policy stated there is no such thing as arbitration within the cult,
    those are huge things that should not be taken lightly.

    Not to mention all the other cases out there
    Tory is on film asking to see her Internal Justice Chief (the person they told her was her only "terminal") and they wouldn't even let her on the property.
    Still have not been able to find that vid.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. The Wrong Guy Member

    I did this search:"International Justice Chief" ToryMagoo44

    This is the first search result. She discusses the International Justice Chief at 6:25.

    Scientologists on CNN and Facts behind their Incorrect Statements

    ToryMagoo44, April 1, 2010

    Tonight Scientology Spokesperson, Tommy Davis, said they didn't have "Disconnection" in Scientology.

    So this video shows you how "Disconnection" IS in Hubbard's "Ethics" book, including How To Disconnect. Since one of their people said "It's totally the person's decision", I showed them my SP declare, done without following their own policies, by the way, AND how at the end it states: "Her ONLY terminal is the International Justice Chief via the Continental Justice Chief" and ALL of that is issued by "The Church of Scientology".
  14. RightOn Member

    ^^^ this is not the vid.
    The one I am talking about is when she was protesting I think outside Big Blue.
    She was sitting on one of their benches and they told her to leave. (I believe)
    She was asking them if she can see her IJC
    They told her they were going to cal the police.
    Whittmore NEEDS to see that video!
  15. The Wrong Guy Member

    I sent her a message with a link to these posts, asking her about the video you mentioned, and this is what she wrote. Quote:

    If I can help I will.

    A few points:

    1. I was NOT at "the Complex on a bench".

    2. I went to the HGB where the Scientology Execs operate out of and for years (before leaving) I was told he was there.

    3. I don't think anyone filmed it, but I'm not sure.

    4. I sat on their building ledge. SECURITY told me, "Get up!"

    5. I showed them my SP declare and said, "my ONLY terminal is the IJC" per their written declare.

    6. They threatened to call the police. This went on and I said "Thanks for proving there is no IJC" and left.
    • Like Like x 1
  17. RightOn Member

    ahh,.... Thanks!
    that is why I wrote "I believe" in parenthesis it was a while ago.
    So I was right.;)
    Someone filmed it because I saw the video.
    Maybe it is someone else's video and I have been looking in the wrong place?
    So the question is, who's vid is it? Popes?
    This is the vid the judge needs to see.
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Malory Member

    The problem is if the Judge ruled for the Garcias now, the cult can easily appeal on the grounds proper procedures weren't followed. We know it's a crock and I'm pretty sure Whittmore sees it's a crock but it's better to stop now than have the cult win decisively in a higher court.

    Now the Garcias have to play the Sci game. Let the cult appoint someone and go through the charade. I've a feeling they'll get their cash because Wee Davey won't want to allow the courts to set a legal precedent which would take power and control out of his hands.

    If the cult still refuses to refund, then the Garcias can go back to court. If the Garcias are wanting to set a legal precedent after that then they could start backing other people who can't afford to go to the courts. Either the cult keeps refunding cash or it will have to eventually risk a legal fight.
    • Like Like x 2
  19. TorontosRoot Member

    I want them (the cult) to risk a big legal fight, and lose.
  20. RightOn Member

    yes but will the judge cost the Garcias too much money?
    It has to run out at some point, which is what the COS is hoping for. They can pay the Garcias off in two shakes of a lamb's tail. Not their intent of course.
    Ruining them utterly is KSW.
    I was kinda hoping the judge would pick up on this too.
    Time will tell.
  21. Malory Member

    Don't we all? :D
  22. Malory Member

    The right way to do it would be for exes to accept it's gone money and every time they get a refund to use it to fund the next people needing to go to court. I know I'd be spiteful enough to prefer to see cash wasted on court costs rather than sitting in Wee Davey's booze fund.

    I'm a big believer in death by a thousand cuts. I know the whales are keeping things afloat but in the meantime keep chipping away at every other source of income and then, when the whales bail or die off, it's trally going to be a body blow.
    • Like Like x 2
  23. You would need a billion cuts, as the cult has a ton of cash AND real estate to withstand more than a thousand cuts. They might not like refunds, but it won’t take them down, that’s for sure.
  24. TorontosRoot Member

    Hmm, if they run out of cash, they have to sell off/mortgage properties to get more, as others leave the cult and speak out.
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Malory Member

    Patience young paddawan. Of course refunds aren't going to take them down but keep working with what's achievable.
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Umm, if you haven't noticed, NO ONE is getting refunds anymore. The Garcia's would have opened the floodgates if they won their suit. But all that's happened is the reverse. Anyone wanting a refund now would need to go through cult arbitration using people who need to agreed on by the cult.

    That. Means. No. Refunds.

    Also, Garcia's lawyers have been funding the suit over three years out of their own pockets with hopes of cashing in on any winnings. They've probably eaten, I don't know, $1-2 million or more with zero financial return to show for it. Even if there was anything left to try, you know the cult will just bleed them for as many more years and millions as possible.

    At this point, it's like putting money into Trump hoping he wins over the black and Muslim vote. It's a bad investment. They gave it a good try and no one can blame them for cutting their losses and moving on.

  27. Malory Member

    Try. Reading. My. Post. Where. I'm. Giving. My. View. Why. The. Judge. Ruled. The. Way. He. Did. Instead. Of. Challenging. Things. I. Haven't. Said.

    What the Garcias do next is up to them.
    • Like Like x 1
  28. The Wrong Guy Member

    Garcias file new motion asking judge to reject Scientology’s sham arbitration

    By Tony Ortega, December 30, 2016


    Luis and Rocio Garcia have tried again to convince Tampa Federal Judge James Whittemore that Scientology is making it impossible to resolve their allegations of fraud, and they’ve filed a new motion asking Judge Whittemore to reopen their lawsuit against the church.

    What’s different this time is that Luis Garcia has detailed in a new affidavit his Kafkaesque attempts to work within Scientology’s rules of internal arbitration, which he says is an impossible task. We don’t know if this new material will sway Whittemore (he’s disregarded similar requests in the past), but as a document, Luis’s affidavit describing what it’s like to be caught inside Scientology’s bizarre “ethics” rules is a useful addition to the historic record.

    Continued at
    • Like Like x 1
  29. RightOn Member

    Hope Whittemore gets a clue
    • Like Like x 1
  30. DeathHamster Member

    He has to get a clue in a way that a higher court won't overturn.
  31. RightOn Member

  32. The Wrong Guy Member

    Federal judge once again finds for Scientology’s nonexistent and Orwellian ‘arbitration’

    By Tony Ortega, February 15, 2017


    Now we’ve learned that Judge Whittemore has once again rejected the Garcias’ motion to jettison the arbitration order and restore their lawsuit, even though he acknowledges how difficult Scientology is making it for the Garcias to select someone. (Previously, he had acknowledged that Scientology doesn’t really have arbitration procedures and had never done an internal arbitration, but ordered the Garcias to submit themselves to it anyway.)

    It does appear that Plaintiffs have had difficulty determining who is in good standing with the Church, and that some individuals they have contacted may not even be aware of their standing with the Church, particularly considering that there appear to be no benchmarks for or documentation of any such determination. However the determination of who is in good standing seems to be a determination solely within the province of the Church. Simply put, on the evidence presented, this difficulty is a product of the religious agreements Plaintiffs signed.

    In other words, Whittemore is once again reluctant to intervene in Scientology’s internal matters, however Orwellian and venal they might be, for fear of violating the organization’s First Amendment rights of religious expression.

    The judge did, however, call for a status hearing in the case on April 6, and we’re hoping it might provide some kind of interesting hashing out about these strange issues.

    More at
  33. The Wrong Guy Member

    Why is it so hard to find a Scientologist in good standing?

    By Jeffrey Augustine, February 18, 2017

    First paragraph:

    On Wednesday, Tony wrote that a Tampa federal judge continues to uphold his ruling that a California couple, Louis and Rocio Garcia, must submit their allegations of fraud to Scientology’s internal arbitration scheme — which doesn’t, actually, exist. And part of their frustration, the Garcias allege, is that every time they select a Scientologist they want to make an arbitrator in the Orwellian scheme, Scientology finds a way to declare that person “not in good standing.” Even the judge admitted it was pretty impossible to figure out who is and who isn’t in “good standing” in the church.

    Last three paragraphs:

    Despite L. Ron Hubbard’s millions of words about everything from Scientology baptisms to Scientology funerals and how to clean windows and how to use a vibrator (we’re not kidding), and despite all the books and checksheets and pamphlets and fliers that current leader David Miscavige has killed whole forests to put out, the Church of Scientology really has no definitive policy stating what constitutes a Scientologist in good standing.

    Who or what is a Scientologist? The answer is that it all depends on the circumstances, which Scientology uses to its best advantage in court. For decades Scientologists have smugly said to each other, “Everyone is a Scientologist; they just don’t know it yet.”

    But for the purposes of arbitration? Scientologists “in good standing” are only whatever handful of people the church can count on to rule precisely the way church wants them to.

    More at
    • Like Like x 1
  34. The Wrong Guy Member

  35. The Wrong Guy Member

  36. The Wrong Guy Member

    Federal judge to Scientology: I’m taking over the arbitration, and it’s jail if you interfere

    By Tony Ortega, April 11, 2017


    Two years after he ordered Luis and Rocio Garcia to submit to the Church of Scientology’s internal arbitration scheme, Tampa federal Judge James Whittemore has finally heard enough bickering by both sides and is taking matters into his own hands.

    In an order he released yesterday after a status hearing on Friday, Judge Whittemore has given the Church of Scientology just two weeks to turn over to him the names and contact information for 500 Scientologists in good standing in the Los Angeles area. The judge will then personally choose three people from that list and secure their cooperation to act as arbitrators. And he warned that if he catches either side contacting or responding to the three people he selects, he will hand out sanctions — which could include jail time.

    Can you imagine, a federal judge calling up a Los Angeles Scientologist and asking them to sit on an arbitrating panel, and telling them not to contact the church about it?

    Good luck on that one, judge.

    This is the latest crazy development in a fraud lawsuit that the Garcias, an Irvine couple, filed in the Tampa court in 2013, alleging that they had been lied to and defrauded when they turned over hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations during their careers as church members. Scientology argued that the Garcias had signed contracts which required them to take any disputes to an internal arbitration process. And despite evidence from top former church officials that the procedures described in those contracts were shams designed to keep people from getting refunds, and despite the church’s own admission that it actually had no arbitration guidelines and had never, in its decades-long history, ever actually held an arbitration, Judge Whittemore ordered that the Garcias submit to the process, citing his inability to interfere with Scientology’s internal matters because of its religious protections under the First Amendment.

    But since then both sides have accused the other of operating in bad faith as they’ve failed to seat any of the three arbitrators who, the church insists, must be members in good standing. The Garcias have refused to choose Scientologists hand-picked by the church, but the church declares any Scientologists the Garcias propose as being “not in good standing.”

    Tired of the many motions filed by both sides, the judge is now putting the church in a very unusual spot. In just two weeks, the secretive organization is required to turn over to a federal court the names, phone numbers, and occupations of 500 Los Angeles Scientologists, and indicate which of them work for the church.

    Oh, we can tell you that the Church of Scientology is not going to be happy about that. But will church attorney Wally Pope risk making Whittemore even angrier than he already is by asking for permission to appeal the order?

    Imagine what it was like for the poor sap who had to tell church leader David Miscavige about this.

    This lawsuit still has the ability to surprise us, even two years after it looked like it was dead.

    Continued at

    This comment is below the article:

    TonyOrtegaan hour ago

    A couple of people have mentioned Scientology settling at this point, but I need to check on that -- I'm not sure they CAN settle right now without disastrous consequences.

    Remember, the judge put the lawsuit on hold when he commanded the Garcias to submit to the church's arbitration process. In the two years since then, the Garcias have complained that the (nonexistent) arbitration process is impossible, and they want the judge to lift the stay and go on with the lawsuit. He has repeatedly refused.

    So if Scientology wanted to settle the lawsuit now, they themselves would have to ask the judge to lift the stay before they could do it. And wouldn't that put the judge in the position to declare that indeed, Scientology's arbitration scheme is inoperable? Such a ruling in a federal court could make the church's draconian contracts worthless in future court cases, costing Scientology much worse than a settlement in this one case.

    I'll ask the experts.
    • Like Like x 4
  37. failboat Member

    I'd like to express my gratitude to the Garcias and their legal team for riding this horse as far as it will go, over, around, and through every obstacle that CoS tries to throw in their way.
    • Like Like x 5
  38. Quentinanon Member

    I don't feel sorry for the nazis in the investigation section of OSA Int that will have to go through case folders, ethics files, personnel files and osa files to vet 500 candidates for this arbitration. I don't see how they could get this done in two weeks without an "all hands" "hill 10" project going from morning late into the night.
    Will scientology comply with Judge Whittmore's order to not contact any of these people? Absolutely not.
    OSA will employ "cutouts" to brief these candidates in private meetings. The cutouts may be WOG attorneys paid by IASbots who don't give out their names to the candidates.
    The scientology crime syndicate WILL covertly defy the judges order because they believe that it's "the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics".
  39. TorontosRoot Member

    We gotta tell that judge this info, and he might lift the stay, and send them all to jail. The paid attorneys will never refund the money.
    • Like Like x 1
  40. In light of the other e-lawyering, here's my IANAL opinion as well:

    TO virtually answers his own question. Yes, a settlement would probably screw over the cult. So there is no fucking way they will ever do it. There are a lot of dynamic factors at play:

    The Garcia suit was the first one by attorneys led by Ted Babbitt that was to set the tone for others. So a win or a settlement would lay the groundwork for many more suits to get more wins or settlements and drain the cult's bank accounts.

    Instead, it's so far only set legal precedence that anyone wanting money back from the cult must go through their arbitration, which of course would mean they would get nothing. So the Garcias are the ones over a barrel, not the other way around. And you can bet the cult will put every available sea ogres onto figuring out the names of 500 individuals to be picked by the judge. It's their chance to shut down any further refunds.

    Additionally, Mike Rinder is the legal consultant on this case. So you can bet that the cult will throw all available funds and legal firepower they have to keep him getting a win. (BTW, I'm not the only one who has observed that most, if not all, legal actions he has been involved in have gone wrong. Just sayin'.)

    And even if if the Garcias win anything, the cult will likely exhaust every possible way to appeal no matter the cost. Anyone who has been cult-watching for the past several years and thinks otherwise hasn't been paying attention.

    But OK, let's say I'm totally wrong about the case and the settlement. Let's say the cult does decide to settle because the Garcias have some overwhelming amount of leverage that makes it the best cult legal option. I remember seeing that the Garcia attorneys were supposedly footing the legal bill to the tune of millions. On that count alone, Garcia's attorneys probably are the ones who want a settlement to recoup some of their losses. And the Garcia's were suing for what, a few hundred thousand? So in any settlement, the attorneys would get paid back first plus a high percentage of anything left. The Garcias would probably get nothing.

    The bottom line is that the Garcia suit so far has been a backfiring, turning point for the worst. It is on the verge of giving the cult the legal backing to essentially keep all their donations into the future. It doesn't look bad. It looks terrible.

    I do however hold some hope that something happens to help the Garcias win. But hope is a pretty crappy strategy, especially against the cult's expensive attorneys and bottomless legal fund.

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