Sometimes they kill themselves

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Disambiguation, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. Disambiguation Global Moderator
    FRESNO (CBS/AP) — An elementary school principal in Fresno shot and killed himself as sheriff’s deputies prepared to search his home as part of a child sex abuse investigation.
    Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims said detectives started investigating Orange Center Elementary principal Lance Clement a week ago after a school employee reported seeing him in his office with a female fifth-grader and the lights off.
    Mims said the investigators determined that nothing inappropriate had happened but remained concerned after interviews with more than 20 students revealed Clement had often summoned young girls to his office and that his school computer hard drive was missing.
    She says deputies were getting ready to search the 42-year-old principal’s house In Hanford on Friday when they heard a shot from inside.[/quote]
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  2. Disambiguation Global Moderator
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  3. Disambiguation Global Moderator
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  4. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    These are all recent! I'm looking for references on suicide and pedophiles.
  5. Disambiguation Global Moderator
  6. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  7. JohnnyRUClear Member

    I've been thinking about this lately. It's an intriguing conundrum. What DO you do, if you're a pedophile? Consider:

    * You can't cure it, so that's out.

    * You can admit it, or try to hide it. If you admit it, you're instantly a pariah for life. LOSER.

    * If you try to hide it, you can either try to suppress your urges or seek to gratify them. If you try to suppress them, your reward is an entire lifetime of silent frustration and self-loathing, along with having to keep up the pretense that you are normal, and experiencing the guilt of trying to form normal relationships which you know you aren't suitable for. Plus you live every moment knowing you are pretending and being afraid that your secret will somehow be revealed.

    * If you seek to gratify the urges, well... do I even need to write that paragraph?

    So... that leaves one last "final solution" to your problem.

    * If you decide to kill yourself, you can either leave an explanation or not. If you do, you may anticipate that your loved ones will possibly revile you post mortem and experience vicarious shame in their own (innocent) lives. You won't be around to alter any of this, so it will fester indefinitely, and that will be your legacy.

    * If you don't leave an explanation, then you just become one more mystery. Painful for your loved ones, but perhaps less painful than the truth would have been.

    Hence, we arrive at the question:

    How many unexplained suicides are "closet cases" of pedos who decided that that was the least awful of their various awful options?

    The only wild thought that's occurred to me so far is... maybe there could be a town for pedos, sort of like a leper colony from the olden days. No children would ever be allowed in, and anyone who goes there has to agree to strict rules, but inside the city, life could be relatively normal. After all, pedos are like everyone else in all other ways. They would have all the same businesses of any other town, minus the youth-oriented ones, obviously (no kids to need any of them).

    Statistically speaking, this probably wouldn't work (most of my wild ideas turn out to be junk), but I haven't hit any absolute dead end yet in my contemplation of it. There are problems, but perhaps only surmountable ones.

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  8. Ogsonofgroo Member

    Hm, would make one helluva sick B movie, 'Their plane has crashed in the wilderness. The survivors, young students on a field trip, struggle through alligator and snake infested swamps only to stumble upon an isolated town nobody has ever heard of. Everyone seems real happy to see them, they are very friendly. Assured that help is on the way.....' *shudderz

    But really, it is a dilemma, and personally I'd rather see pedos dead than fed, but that is probably not very civilized of me... I have no ideas.
  9. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Nobody ever heard of? My expectation is the opposite. I can't imagine many being unaware of such a place. I'd be more concerned with the possibility of someone doing something nasty against it out of hatred. However, I think it's possible that the present vitriol against pedos might abate a bit if they had such an option, which would tend to alleviate that risk. But that's pure conjecture.

    It's probably academic anyway as I still expect this idea to go nowhere. Still, the underlying problem will exist unless and until somebody comes up with some kind of workable idea.
  10. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Like me.
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  11. JohnnyRUClear Member

    So you don't like the idea? Do you have a better suggestion? Do you like the status quo?
  12. Random guy Member

    There is a cure.

    It's not nice, but it will solve the problem without resorting to people topping themselves or making horror film scenario set-ups.

    The solution is chemical castration. It removes the urge but leave all the functional bits in place. Unlike suicide, it is also reversible, should it turn out out someone's been misidentified as a paedophile.
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  13. White Tara Global Moderator

    I heard that it was ineffective?
  14. Random guy Member

    Depends. The greatest problem is some won't take their pills.

    It also has some nasty side effects. Castration is castration.
  15. JohnnyRUClear Member

    I don't know about it. If it is effective, that might be the best option. It's still not a good option, IMO, but it sounds less awful than any of the others currently available.
  16. White Tara Global Moderator

    hmmm, Nasty side effects sound like they may fall into the category of cruel and unusual punishment, also, how can anyone enforce the medication regimen required to keep the urges under control in non custodial participants.
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  17. Random guy Member

    Well, under the US constitution you can't I suppose. Some do it voluntarily, all the more power to them!
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  18. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    OK Random Guy sorry I was snarky.
    Your arguments are good, sexual identity is embedded long before puberty and no one gets to choose theirs. However the idea that these urges aren't controllable is the fallacy.
    Sadists get off on hurting their partners, masochists want to be hurt. They hook up and because they are consenting adults there isn't a problem. They join clubs and play act or find a partner that gets off on real or pretend pain.
    Adults attracted to children can find adult partners that look like young teens and dress the part. People who like doing it with animals do it or do not, but there isn't a child involved. Some people get off on the idea of rape, that doesn't mean its OK to rape, it means role playing to get satisfied.
    Sexuality is an ocean.
    There is no FUCKING EXCUSE to sexually interact with a child. None. Should I say that again? Although pedophiles are excited by CP there is NO FUCKING Excuse for watching it. Grownups are grownups.
    My disgust with pedophiles centers on their argument that they should be forgiven for their transgressions because they have no choice. The very worse thing about pedophiles is their argument that what they do is good for the child. I don't know if manipulation is part of their psyche that they don't choose or it's developed to hunt prey.
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  19. Random guy Member

    You were? A good thing about being Johnny Foreigner is a lot of snark pass me right by.

    Not all paedophiles think that way, hence some commit suicide, and some voluntarily accept chemical neutering. I believe the "good for the child" is just as much self delusion as anything else. The alternative is to face that they are monsters. Not all can face that.
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  20. JohnnyRUClear Member

    That's exactly what I think, too. However, I wasn't thinking about the denial aspect when I wrote my long post #7, above. If I ever revise it I could incorporate that. (It would be part of the unwritten section. I really didn't want to even think about that part.)
  21. anonysamvines Member

    I have no dox for this, just a memory of reading about it long long time ago. Not sure if it was in an article about the notorious pedo Catweazle (wow how did I drag that name up from the depths)

    Some have been known to take the chemical castration route in order to escape jail (and presumably deflect suspicion since testing reveals compliance) and then go on abusing using objects or stand ins. They taught themselves to get their kicks purely mentally. Only the hard core take that route obviously

    Some really are conflicted, ashamed and repentant and will do everything they can not to reoffend
  22. Random guy Member

    A problem we see here is that not only paedophiles sensu tricto commit sexual abuse of children. I suppose paedophiles account for the majority of the cases, but in others, particularly the incest-cases, seem to be committed by people who don't fit the criteria. If it is something else than cross-wiring of the sexual circuits that make them attack children, will castration remove that underlying urge? In my uneducated understanding the answer is no.
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  23. Do child molesters feel guilt? I think most of them lack a conscience and are incapable of feeling guilt.
  24. JohnnyRUClear Member

    I don't know. I assume they have a conscience, by default. Certainly some may be psychopathic. How would we determine this?
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  25. RavenEyes Member

    Ask them?
  26. Random guy Member

    There are tests for psychopathy.

    Complicating the matter is that both paedophilia and psychopathy may not be single conditions, but could be symptoms of a number of different conditions. Certainly, psychopaths seem to come in too many variants to be just a single condition.
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  27. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  28. Disambiguation Global Moderator
  29. John Duff Member

    Does an anorexic feels guilty about eating a big chocolate cake and vomiting it all in the toilets ?
    Does a smoker feel guilty about smoking a cigarette ?

    It depends.
    If they are not fully conscious of the problem, they will probably think that raping children is fun.
    If they are conscious of the problem, they will think that raping children is fun, but will feel guilty about it (because that's bad).

    Addictions, sexual deviances and some other mental disorders are hard to cure because people who have it feel that their disorder is a part of themselves. For example if one says "I am a smoker", it literally means that he is something that smokes. This person considers that smoking is part of what he's supposed to do/be.
    If we banned smoking, smokers will still continue to smoke. They would hide, feel guilty, struggle, but most of them will continue.

    In this case, you have 2 reactions :
    • Stop doing this bad thing. This is hard. Without any exterior factors, only the bravest can do it. Some people need a shock to get started. For example if a heavy smoker gets diagnosed with cancer, he has a lot more chances to stop smoking (if he wants to) thant before because he got a shock (and he's freaking out). If a child molester is about to get caught, he gets a shock (an emotional one).
    • Continue doing this bad thing. Find excuses to justify yourself, say that you'll stop in the future (never gets done), hide the truth or worse (some people develop some form of psychosis because of this).
    Suicide is just one way to stop doing this bad thing. Use it when you know you have to stop, but you know you won't be able to do it.
    Usually happens in people who are wise enough to know that only their death wil prevent them from continuing and that would be the best choice regarding these children's life (1 person dies, a lot of children will stay safe).

    For me, a child molester who commits suicide is the last empathic and wise action of a man who is/was potentially harmful to his entourage.
    He lived like a bad guy and died like a hero.
  30. Anonymous Member

    No. Lived as scum and died as scum. Rot in hell motherfuckers.
  31. John Duff Member

    Would you kill yourself if you knew that it will protect some children ? I couldn't. The last action of this guy was something that very few people would have the courage to do (and maybe he was helped by an adrenaline rush).

    There's something that amazes me in here.
    You (most of you) want to fix the problem of pedophilia, but you don't even try to understand how/what pedophiles feel and think.
    You are quick to judge and sometimes, you don't put things into perspective.
    How can you solve a problem if you don't look at the datas and try to think about what these data mean ?

    How do you want to get rid of your problems if you don't even understand them ?
    For you, a pedophile is just an asshole who rapes children (which is true), but it's only a tiny part of what a pedophile is. You don't think about the pleasure, guilt, shame, fear, love that these people feel or about the several psychological mechanisms that are involved.
    It could help so much if you really want to get rid of this issue ...

    But nevermind.
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  32. White Tara Global Moderator

    The sad truth is what society has done to stop the sexual abuse of children is not enough and/or possibly the wrong strategy. When confronted with this failing it behooves us to understand why. To consider a different approach, entirely or in conjunction with current measures.

    The shame of being attracted to children and an inate understanding that it would be wrong to harm a child, keeps some from doing so. We need to understand the whole psychology of those that are sexually interested in children and choose not to act on it, as much as we need to understand those who do. We need to do whatever it takes to support and encourage those who choose to refrain from acting on urges.

    Somehow we have to find a better more all encompassing way to stop sexual abuse of children because we are barely scratching the surface as it stands now.
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  33. Ersatz Global Moderator

    Interesting, but wait...what? Are you suggesting a bunch of online activists can fix pedophilia?
    Please, do go on.
  34. John Duff Member

    No. Does it means that we should stop thinking about this issue and stop helping ?

    We may not be able to build a house, but we can fetch tools to a carpenter. He'll know what to do.
    Maybe there's someone here who has the power to act against CP and is just looking for good ideas to put in place.
    If there's nobody of this kind here, why not find a good idea, then search for this kind of person ?

    If I do drugs and people judge me as an evil person, why the F would I stop ? Got nothing left to lose, I'm already considered as a monster.
    The most probable thing I'll do is find other people who do drugs too and become part of their group. In this group, there is probably someone who knows where/how to get drugs or someone who will make me discover other drugs (maybe even more dangerous ones).
    Replace "drugs" with "CP" here. ^

    Banning drugs helps drug cartels*. Rejecting pedophiles helps pedophilia.

    *You'll see what will happen in Mexico when marijuana will be legalized everywhere in the USA. Economical problems, war between big cartels, mass cultivation of other illegal drugs (I would bet on either heroin or a brand new drug) ...

    Shame is the poison and the cure. It prevents pedophiles to act. It also causes pedophiles to be obsessed with children ("I would like, but I can't. But I'd like it. But I can't. Ok, now I need it, let's do this.").
    It just takes a moment of weakness to act ("bad day, good occasion").
    It also just takes a moment of strength to end it (suicide, to prevent it from happening again).

    As you can see, I think of pedophilia as a kind of addiction. They have too much in common to be different IMHO. The more I lurk, the more it becomes evident to me. What do you think about it ?
    I have no problems with the idea of addictions in general (I personnally have a few of them). The problem with this particular addiction is that it consists in harming someone (directly, not as a side effect).

    From what I've seen, the actions we (=> everybody) take for the moment happen :
    • During the events : CP ads, webistes etc are taken down. This means that the guy who created this ad or website is currently active and in search for a prey.
    • After the events : CP is punished by law. This takes place way after the events, sometimes decades.
    Do we do anything before it happens ?
    Is there a place where people can go and talk to psychologists about this kind of deviance in order to get some help ?

    What we currently do doesn't "unpedophilize" people (<= I used a shortcut, don't be mad).

    Maybe we could find something that worked for drug addictions and see if/how we can use it with pedophilia.
    Or we could try (almost) random stuff and see which one works best.

    PS : what does "pthc" stands for ? I've seen this when I was lurking, but didn't find it's meaning. I guess it's a pedo keyword, but I don't know more. Search engines didn't help.
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  35. White Tara Global Moderator

    I didnt know pthc just found it :( 'preteen hardcore'

    I believe the psychology of people with sexual interest in children who dont act and those who do might differ to some degree. It is so poorly understood it bears intense examination. We may gain insight and better ways to deal with it before a child is made victim. From what I do understand it is a sexual attraction. Sexual addiction has been disproved as valid addiction or at least that was what I have read more recently. This leaves us with the uncomfortable thought that perhaps it does fall into the broad spectrum of human sexuality. This I have no idea on and rely on Psychologists and Psychiatrists to define. That being said, I don't care how unpalatable the truth of it is, the truth is what is required to find the most effective ways to protect children from harm.
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  36. Ersatz Global Moderator

    Before it happens? Before someone actually touches a child? You mean maybe they're just looking at CP and have not raped a child? Well, by looking at CP they are abusing a child by causing demand.

    I find your response disturbing and far too apologetic. Anons are not in the business of addiction treatment. The internet is the playground of anons. Stopping CP on the net is a worthy goal. Trying to prevent child abuse via online activism? Seriously? Even if a pedophile has not acted on their urges every piece of child porn they access online has a victim and is a victim because pedophiles, active or not, create the demand. What your suggesting is not in the realistic given the parameters of this type of activism. Perhaps your ideas might be better shared with psychiatric professionals, not keyboard warriors.
  37. White Tara Global Moderator

    Not all have accessed CP. Thats the point the ones that are troubled by their interest in children and have not acted are a font of useful information. All efforts to curtail any form of child abuse are good. However more needs to be done across the board, not just for anons but for the whole of society. That includes even more research and analysis of what makes these people tick.
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  38. John Duff Member

    I meant when they realize that they're attracted to children but didn't do anything yet.
    I knew someone would answer this. English is not my main language, maybe there are some important details that I didn't express correctly.
    If you want, you could resume my prior post with this : "Know your enemy". I'm not saying that CP is good (far from this). I'm just trying to understand why the hell people do this (what happens in their mind) so I can optimize the way I can help.

    BTW, is the enemy CP or people who practice CP ? The difference can be quite huge.
    I know :)
    Yeah, let's be crazy for a second and imagine that it's possible ;)
    If you've watched child porn without the intention to do something about it, I assume you have at least encouraged child porn. If you watch these pictures, CP has already happened.
    Why ?
    Activism is great for propagating ideas. If someone thinks about a new way to deal with CP (with the participation of psychiatric professionnals), won't you help the idea to spread if it fits in the anon "spirit" ?
    I know some psychologists, psychiatrists, I have access to several private databases of psychology studies, I know people who suffered from this and I know you people. Why not get the best out of all of this ?
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  39. Disambiguation Global Moderator
    This organization is doing what I think you mean- working on ways to treat pedophiles with counseling and advocating for treatment options. I think this is legit ie they are gentler on pedophiles than most of us but the basis of their work is on pedophiles maintaining abstinence. Treatment is to help them maintain abstinence. They believe better treatment will keep pedophiles from being reviled and make abstinance more likely.
    It's true that pedophiles have no choice about being sexually attracted to children.
    There. That's all of the interest I have in treatment of pedophiles- I prefer to work for the victims.
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  40. Ersatz Global Moderator

    Every OP has to start somewhere, I say go for it. #OpDeathEaters has its hands full atm but you could start your own OP.

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