Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by Unregistered, Jul 20, 2009.

  1. Visionary Member

    Oh, I don't think anyone's suggesting bombing the hell out of the IRG right now. lol
    Although at least some of them probably deserve it
  2. a desert Member

    Oh well yeah, I hope they're not. But yeah, tl;dr version is physical removal is not the answer. Letting them make their own lives miserable is very much win.
  3. My pleasure. The hawk is associated with Mithraism and Zoroastrianism, is it not? Please correct me if I am wrong. The hawk symbolizing or being close to the sun? I would like to know some more, if you have time. But I will understand if you do not have the time. Thank you.

    By the way, if you get emotional, don't sweat it. We love you. And it's important that you remember that you are not alone. Ever! Don't ever forget, no matter what happens: you are not alone!
  4. Visionary Member

    I guess. Personally I'd like to see (if they haven't committed suicide, or fled, or resigned out of fear already) dissolving/banning/removing the group entirely from the system and then arresting the leaders.
  5. a desert Member

    Sadly I wouldn't see that happening. I mean removal from Iran is pretty much a given after the regime goes down, but from the system at large? Much more difficult.
  6. Well thought, Unreg. :)
  7. Yes, don't worry about the length. There will always be some folks who never learned to read anything but a cereal box. Pay no heed. Certain things need to be said. Certain things need to be read. If it takes time, if it takes patience, if it takes good hard listening and thinking and discussion -- then that's what it takes. If people don't understand something then they can ask you to clarify -- but, please, no apologies for length are necessary. Love and hugs.
  8. It's coyote. I never log in. I'm lazy. Thanks.
  9. JohnDoe Moderator

    I didn't have time to read this earlier, and promised myself I would do it when I got home. It's amazing, I just feel that I've had a conversation with spouse;) - wonder if you two went to the same school;) (or was that you just grew up under the same tyranny!)
  10. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    thank you, to everyone for your supportive comments. i will try to be brief, but thorough. of course, brevity is relative. i will also try to remain less emotional, more like NiteOwl, who reports quite dispassionately given the subjects of his reporting.

    how much power the IRG has is a very important issue. perhaps the key issue. are the current rounds of sackings and re-assignments going to benefit reform or oppression? there are a lot of recent changes in the MOI, this combined with the 'discovery' of cells or a detention center under the ministry, and the closing of one of the prisons, allows me some hope for reform.

    Montazeri has cautioned the prison closure was a diversion, but is it a diversion which could have happened a week ago? i am not trying to lessen the impact of so many clerics who have lent their voices to reform. the clericy represents the one area where the IRG is demonstrably weak. if the learned and wise of Qom (and maybe Mashad) move to Najaf, a tremendous amount of legitimacy moves with them. now it really will not be the 'Islamic Republic'.

    if this happens no one will be able to fool themselves into thinking they are doing God's work in Lebanon, Syria, or anywhere else. the ones who are in it for the violence, money, and whatever prestige they glean from being in such organizations will stay. the rest will leave. unless they are paid more. this in turn represents very real financial pressures on the regime. there will be few knowledgeable, therefore powerful, clerics in Iran. Mesbah will maintain his control over the IRG officers he has trained, but it will still take time and more money to convince others he is as charismatic and knowing as he wishes to portray himself.

    i am also curious to see who will be at friday prayers today, and what the accompanying demonstrations will be like. will the 'minister of chanting' be treated the way he was two weeks ago? i hope so. clerical announcements today will have an impact on trials which are soon beginning. as the final arbiters of jurisprudence, we can only hope the Ayatollahs who have begun to find their voice will continue to use it. they must use their voices for real justice, for compassion, and to save their country. if for no other reason than show trials will at this point play into the hands of reformers: increasing the emotional fuel fanning the flames of martyrdom, increasing the illumination on a regime of hatred, brutality and oppression.

    i am very tired this morning and will sign off shortly. God willing, i shall return this evening.
  11. Momaroloki Member

    Another reason to keep people from going on pilgrimage.
  12. Visionary Member

    Thanks for the input!

    Much appreciated.

    By the way, in the 30th of July protest thread I said this:
    -Also wondering if there's people who can't see the videos, if they can see screen caps and if anyone would be interested in making some for them. with you in mind specifically.

    To add to that:

    are there any specific videos that you may have heard or read about but haven't been able to see, that you would like to see pictures from? (if you can see pics).
  13. thanks for this, sp4rrowh4wk. the move to Najaf is, as you say, very interesting. I've been out of the loop for a week. technical troublres. just catching up now.
  14. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    thank you, Visionary, for your concern. i apologize for not responding to your post and becoming sidetracked.

    we are very careful about downloading videos from unknown sources and rely on a few trusted only. i consider you to be one of the trusted. if there are any videos we would like to see, but are unable... well it is difficult to say which these might be. those of us who are able, will view all vids and pics from trusted sources. i would like to extend a deep and heartfelt appreciation to all trusted who post.

    the reason we only view from certain people is because of the knowledge that the unscrupulous will use exploits, or exploit known video issues, in browser technology. many of us have switched to the latest FireFox with NoScript. but not all. i very highly recommend all people make this switch. it is easy enough for even myself to do this.

    i cannot stress enough the need, the absolute requirement, to use caution when viewing or passing links. current trouble with personal systems, Twitter and FaceBook are only a small foreshadowing of what is likely to come. i very strongly recommend that everyone use tor and vidalia. do not assume you are safe because of your location.

    right now, seriously, right now, someone appears to be attempting to access some of my security software. (strange windows popping up) each day i run several complete scans with multiple different beneware (opposite of malware?)

    i do not wish to spread fear, but forewarned is fore-armed. the most insane of wealthy insane regimes grows increasingly desperate.
  15. Hechicera Member

    This is also "standard" in my browser, KeyScrambler:

    It only helps after the fact, in addition if it is compromised too sometimes gives warning. Then again, I got the habit from gaming sites, where malware to steal WoW passwords is common. Such a different world ...
  16. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    Bugs Bunny, i am sorry to hear of your technical troubles. such troubles are affecting more users personally, as well as specific parts of the net.

    i have posted on several threads. i did not post to this one because issues were raised elsewhere, and i am actually quite shy. i consider posting to a thread bearing my own name as sort of... too much, somehow. i do not know the right way to say what i intend.

    i have posted on the following threads:
    opportunity to cripple...
    Iran looks into 18bil...
    interesting comment by Afrasiabi...
    Khamenei officially endorses Ahmadinejad

    with regard to current internet difficulties, i would like to remind people of the intermediary servers depositing *hundreds* of malwares on users attempting to access ILNA website. other pro reform sites may also contain such intermediaries, and should be checked.

    if i understand some mentalities correctly, what better way to strike at the Green resistance movement than through green resistance zombies. if Google still has records regarding these malware infiltrations, perhaps they should be queried. no doubt they are already.

    on another thread, someone mentioned something like 'all out war' (re more serious Twitter/FB attack today). i would like to suggest it has been so. now it is escalating. it has been said there is no defense like a good offense, but i wish to remind people that defense, especially personal system defense, cannot be overlooked or underused.
  17. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    Hechicera, the key scrambler is an excellent idea. thank you for posting.

    i have heard of two important new developments.

    1) clashes continue long after dark and are becoming more violent (from protesters). these are taking place in small areas of Tehran and other cities. of note, however, are the clashes in south Tehran. this is a lower middle class or even poor area of town, where the regime really did not expect to see anything like this. a curfew has been established. martial law has not been officially declared because that should mean involving the military, and they are not on the regime's side. the military has been waiting for something like this to happen.

    2) the next development is far more disturbing. i have heard (but not confirm) that a new gas is being used against protesters. this gas is like tear gas, but also paralyzes the body. it is shocking if true, and the world and i need to know if it is true. what, if any steps may be taken to counter act such a thing? does it even exist? or is it exist a more lethal gas? (my sources saw what they saw, and wisely ran)

    please, your assistance is important.
  18. jadt65 Member

    Originally Posted by sp4rrowh4wk View Post
    twitter is sporadic working for me, i think it depends on which tor node i am on at the time.

    also, i hear reports of a new tear gas which paralyzes the body. can anyone please provide information? i will also post on my thread as i do not know any other options. thank you
    `Are you talking about sarin gas (a nerve agent). This is the link for the Center for Disease Control (US)

    CDC | Facts About Sarin
  19. twitter sporadic for me too and i'm in the US.

    russia used a paralyzing gas in a theater to kill Chechen's ? when they took over a theater. killed just about everyone in there. it affects the neurological system but most apparent is it's affect on the respiratory system - you stop breathing. i don't think this is what is being used. i also read it smells like flowers. teargas can have a paralyzing affect - its a shock to the system and your body could shut down momentarily from it. not sure about sarin - does cause nausea/vomiting etc but doesn't paralyze that i know of.
  20. jadt65 Member

    From the CDC link

    Immediate signs and symptoms of sarin exposure

    * People may not know that they were exposed because sarin has no odor.
    * People exposed to a low or moderate dose of sarin by breathing contaminated air, eating contaminated food, drinking contaminated water, or touching contaminated surfaces may experience some or all of the following symptoms within seconds to hours of exposure:
    o Runny nose
    o Watery eyes
    o Small, pinpoint pupils
    o Eye pain
    o Blurred vision
    o Drooling and excessive sweating
    o Cough
    o Chest tightness
    o Rapid breathing
    o Diarrhea
    o Increased urination
    o Confusion
    o Drowsiness
    o Weakness
    o Headache
    o Nausea, vomiting, and/or abdominal pain
    o Slow or fast heart rate
    o Low or high blood pressure
    * Even a small drop of sarin on the skin can cause sweating and muscle twitching where sarin touched the skin.
    * Exposure to large doses of sarin by any route may result in the following harmful health effects:
    o Loss of consciousness
    o Convulsions
    o Paralysis
    o Respiratory failure possibly leading to death
    * Showing these signs and symptoms does not necessarily mean that a person has been exposed to sarin.

    What the long-term health effects are

    Mild or moderately exposed people usually recover completely. Severely exposed people are not likely to survive. Unlike some organophosphate pesticides, nerve agents have not been associated with neurological problems lasting more than 1 to 2 weeks after the exposure.
    How people can protect themselves, and what they should do if they are exposed to sarin

    * Recovery from sarin exposure is possible with treatment, but the antidotes available must be used quickly to be effective. Therefore, the best thing to do is avoid exposure:
    o Leave the area where the sarin was released and get to fresh air. Quickly moving to an area where fresh air is available is highly effective in reducing the possibility of death from exposure to sarin vapor.
    + If the sarin release was outdoors, move away from the area where the sarin was released. Go to the highest ground possible, because sarin is heavier than air and will sink to low-lying areas.
    + If the sarin release was indoors, get out of the building.
    * If people think they may have been exposed, they should remove their clothing, rapidly wash their entire body with soap and water, and get medical care as quickly as possible.
    * Removing and disposing of clothing:
    o Quickly take off clothing that has liquid sarin on it. Any clothing that has to be pulled over the head should be cut off the body instead of pulled over the head. If possible, seal the clothing in a plastic bag. Then seal the first plastic bag in a second plastic bag. Removing and sealing the clothing in this way will help protect people from any chemicals that might be on their clothes.
    o If clothes were placed in plastic bags, inform either the local or state health department or emergency personnel upon their arrival. Do not handle the plastic bags.
    o If helping other people remove their clothing, try to avoid touching any contaminated areas, and remove the clothing as quickly as possible.
    * Washing the body:
    o As quickly as possible, wash any liquid sarin from the skin with large amounts of soap and water. Washing with soap and water will help protect people from any chemicals on their bodies.
    o Rinse the eyes with plain water for 10 to 15 minutes if they are burning or if vision is blurred.
    * If sarin has been swallowed, do not induce vomiting or give fluids to drink.
    * Seek medical attention immediately. Dial 911 and explain what has happened.

    How sarin exposure is treated

    Treatment consists of removing sarin from the body as soon as possible and providing supportive medical care in a hospital setting. Antidotes are available for sarin. They are most useful if given as soon as possible after exposure.
  21. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    i am, unfortunately, familiar with sarin and its effects. the first thing i asked was about convulsions. from what i have seen, paralysis occurs after the muscles have become too tired or overstimulated to function. before this happens, persons falling to the ground run the very real risk of concussion or worse from beating their own head into the surface.

    no convulsions were witnessed (that i know of). this sounds new to me. while it is possible for teargas to be a shock to one's system, people are too used to it by now to be so disturbed. the Chyechen gas sounds new, but i did not ask about odors, and was not told of any. when this gas is used is it always fatal? not so much paralysis, then, as death?
  22. jadt65 Member

    I have done some is the link about the gas used in Moscow

    Moscow hostage crisis chemical agent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I also checked out VX (leaves an oily residue).

    It appears the tx is similar for all the nerve agents---fresh air, shower, get rid of the clothes to prevent recontaminating them)

    I hope this nightmare ends soon & the sea of green holds these perps accountable...stay safe.
  23. Visionary Member

    I highly doubt the regime is using Sarin gas. That's a really lethal wmd.

    Sarin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I think there would be huge international outrage if sarin gas were used.

    I believe Iraq used some on Iran during the Iran vs Iraq war.
  24. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    thank you, after the rain. the second article was most helpful. this gas is not *supposed* to be lethal for healthy people without liver disorders. by the time flowers are smelled, it is likely too late. one wonders where the gas came from- why was it not used earlier?

    i hope this is not being used or the prisons will fill faster than they can be built. i do not wish to think of alternatives.
  25. Those two gases kill, not paralyze. Chlorine makes your lungs fill up with liquid and you drown, and sarin kills your nerves, permanently, and kills you because your organs stop working.

    They're not using either of thsoe, if it is just paralyzing people.
  26. Fentanyl info

    Wikipedia (Fentanyl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    Excerpt: Adverse events

    Fentanyl's major side effects (more than 10% of patients) include diarrhea, nausea, constipation, dry mouth, somnolence, confusion, asthenia (weakness), and sweating and, less frequently (3 to 10% of patients), abdominal pain, headache, fatigue, anorexia and weight loss, dizziness, nervousness, hallucinations, anxiety, depression, flu-like symptoms, dyspepsia (indigestion), dyspnea (shortness of breath), hypoventilation, apnea, and urinary retention. Fentanyl use has also been associated with aphasia. Fentanyl patch has been associated with altered mental state leading to aggression in an anecdotal case report.
    Marketing new chemical weapons | Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

    Incapacitating chemical agents used by law enforcement officials are being given new names to hide their weapon potential. Now being presented as riot control agents, these chemical concoctions have been reclassified to avoid being outlawed by CWC regulations. Unfortunately, countries that have decried external chemical weapon proliferation threats haven't disavowed similar programs within their own countries.
    New York News - It's a Gas, Gas, Gas - page 1
  27. Sarin was used on the Kurds in Iraq. It leaves a white powder everywhere, and kills almost instantly. Normal tear gas will make it hard to breathe, and make people sluggish because they are not breathing right, but won't kill. That is most likely what this is.

    People aren't running any more. They are staying and fighting, and breathing that shit. After a while breathing it, it is going to make you feel weak and light headed, and unable to move if you are in it long enough.
  28. Machiavelli Member

  29. This is what gas like sarin does:

    Bloody Friday

    You would know if they were using sarin or nerve gas, because no one would be alive. It is something different. No less evil, just different.
  30. jadt65 Member

    Mea Culpa on the sarin gas.
  31. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    Unregistered, you are correct, the people were standing and fighting in this instance. it may have been a case of overexposure leading to a faint. i will need to research this further.

    i do not think it was sarin either. nor was it chlorine, which is immediately noticeable due to odor and color. i was not in Kurdish Iraq. when sarin is applied in quantities large enough to leave that kind of residue, it would kill instantly. but sarin tends to evaporate rather quickly. when aerosalized, it can dissipate and lead to the kind of reaction i describe earlier. in any event, i agree that it is unlikely to be sarin.

    the articles i have read recently state sarin can be treated. the only treatment i know of must be applied immediately to prevent death from one of several causes. i am thinking of fentanyl, but would need additional information.
  32. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    please do not worry, jadt65.

    Machiavelli, i am not sure if this could be chlorobenzaldoxin nitril, or not. cn is used as, i believe- or created from, an antifungal agent. it is extremely bad news for the mucus membranes and causes burning on the skin. i am certain this, or something similar, has been used off and on since the first days of the protest.

    it has been said to cause seizures in certain people. this may have been one of those cases. use of such a substance seems like it would be illegal. while not limiting for the regime, it might be additional ammunition for those wishing to apply external pressure.
  33. I was in the war in Kuwait, and we were trained in chemical warfare extensively, because we expected to have it used against us. An amount of sarin the side of the head of a pin can kill. You'd need to really dilute it to make it into a non-lethal agent, if it is even possible. It's effects are permanent, so I don't think it is possible. But there are other gases, like the ones that were mentioned earlier that Russia used in the theatre situation, that are supposed to be paralyzing and not lethal. Obviously the one the Russians used for the first time in that theatre were more lethal than expected. But that was a while ago. They have probably refined it since then, and possibly sold some of it to the Iranian government.

    Here is an article about the gas the Russians used:

    Moscow hostage crisis chemical agent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  34. The treatment for Sarin is an instant shot of adrenalin, or something similar that speeds up your metabolism. The idea is to get your body working faster to keep you alive long enough for it to leave your system. Doesn't work very well, but anything is better than nothing.

    You are supposed to shoot it straight into your heart through your chest.

    Nerve gas is ugly shit. It makes me uneasy just thinking about it. It is bad, very bad. They wouldn't let the basij use it, because the way they fight, it could blow back on them. They don't care of they knock their own people out, but the only ones they want to kill are the protesters.
  35. Paleene Member

    Anybody read her/him lately?
    Everything ok?

    Hope s/he is only getting some sleep after days of sleep deprivation :eek:
  36. Yes, on twitter daily, typically beautiful language, so am assuming it's okay.
  37. Machiavelli Member

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